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[NYR/CBJ] Rick Nash+Steven Delisle+3rd for Dubinsky, Anisimov, Erixon, 1st (part III)

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Old
07-24-2012, 12:06 PM
  #176
nickschultzfan
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I'd be nice if Columbus could trade Wiz and Umberger for some good young players.

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07-24-2012, 12:08 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by Satan'sIsland81 View Post
However, lets look at the FACTS: Rick Nash had 59 points last year. Dubinsky, who had a horrible season, had 34 points and Anisimov, who is just 24 years old, had 36 points. Both players are just one season removed from over 40 points. Technically the Rangers are losing points in this deal.
So trade Brad Richards and his 66 points for, say, Lauri Korpikoski and Antoine Vermette and their combined 74 points. You come out way ahead in points! How could you lose?

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07-24-2012, 12:10 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by Eternal Leaf View Post
If Erixon lives to his potential, the deal's not a complete robbery. I suppose that is a big IF, though considering his mental issues.
What "mental issues"? Does the dude wear a hockey helmet full time?

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07-24-2012, 12:13 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by tmg View Post
So trade Brad Richards and his 66 points for, say, Lauri Korpikoski and Antoine Vermette and their combined 74 points. You come out way ahead in points! How could you lose?
I hate this logic. Drives me nuts. Thanks for making fun of it.

Yeah, if you combine two moderate guys they get more points than one superstar. Of course, it's not like that one extra vacant spot after the superstar is going to be filled in by a trash can that scores ZERO points. Somebody will play on the 3rd line and they'll put up 20-30 points, too.

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07-24-2012, 12:13 PM
  #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Satan'sIsland81 View Post
I honestly cannot believe how overrated Rick Nash is. Obviously that is an opinion, the same way that Rangers fans now think he is great and stole him from Columbus is an opinion.

However, lets look at the FACTS: Rick Nash had 59 points last year. Dubinsky, who had a horrible season, had 34 points and Anisimov, who is just 24 years old, had 36 points. Both players are just one season removed from over 40 points. Technically the Rangers are losing points in this deal.

Second, no matter how much people want to believe Rick Nash is a superstar in the NHL and his point totals are lowered by playing on a bad team. Consider this FACT: At the age of 28 Rick Nash's highest ever point total is 79 points. For comparison purposes, John Tavares at the age of 21 is just coming off an 81 point season while playing on an awful team. Not only that, Tavares makes the players around him (Matt Moulson, PA Parenteau) better, while Rick Nash makes nobody around him better. If Rick Nash is a superstar, what is John Tavares?

Feel free to disagree, but in my opinion, the Rangers gave up a good second line winger, a good third line center, a top defense prospect and a first round pick for a 60 point scorer.
Rangers were a team that had to many 2nd/3rd line forwards that were not capable of taking over a game.

What Brandon Dubinsky and Artem Anisimov are, is thay are NOT 1st line forwards.

The Rangers have a very solid group of 2nd line forwards in Stepan, Callahan, Hagelin and I believe Kreider falls in to that grouping as well.

What they NEEDED was another goal scoring forward. A consistent threat to score a goal every 2-3 games. That is what Gaborik is, that is what Nash is.

I expect the combined production from Dubi adn AA to surpass Nash's, but do I expect Dubi and AA's production to surpass that of Nash and Kreider? or Nash and Hagelin? ABSOLUTELY NOT.

A centers job is to make the players around you better. Tavares is better at his position than Nash is at his. No harm in that. Nash is not an elite player in terms of making the players around him better.

Nash IS elite in terms of putting the puck in the net and I would argut top 5 in the league in that regards.

We were not getting that from Dubi or AA.

To the point in bold.

The last 5 years, Nash has averaged 34.6 goals a season and 68 points a season.

1st line numbers on any team in the league.

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07-24-2012, 12:18 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by TheGleninator View Post
Anisimov had 36 points and Dubinsky 34 together put up 70 points and cost a combined 6.075 while Nash had 59 points and costs 7.8 million I think Columbus wins this one.
Yeah...see Nash will now be playing with Derek Stepan, Marian Gaborik, Brad Richards, Ryan Callahan and Carl Hagelin. You know...the same team that went to the conference finals who will now be a legitimate contender.

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07-24-2012, 12:29 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by Bench View Post
I hate this logic. Drives me nuts. Thanks for making fun of it.

Yeah, if you combine two moderate guys they get more points than one superstar. Of course, it's not like that one extra vacant spot after the superstar is going to be filled in by a trash can that scores ZERO points. Somebody will play on the 3rd line and they'll put up 20-30 points, too.
So much this. the A<B+C idea is not even flawed logic, it's flat out dumb.

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07-24-2012, 12:30 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by bench View Post
i hate this logic. Drives me nuts. Thanks for making fun of it.

Yeah, if you combine two moderate guys they get more points than one superstar. Of course, it's not like that one extra vacant spot after the superstar is going to be filled in by a trash can that scores zero points. Somebody will play on the 3rd line and they'll put up 20-30 points, too.
exactly!

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07-24-2012, 12:36 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
Nash IS elite in terms of putting the puck in the net and I would argut top 5 in the league in that regards.

We were not getting that from Dubi or AA.

To the point in bold.

The last 5 years, Nash has averaged 34.6 goals a season and 68 points a season.

1st line numbers on any team in the league.
Nash: 2nd only to Ovechkin in goals since the lockout. Consistent 30-40 goal scorer, year in, year out.

In exchange, Columbus gets 2 guys that can make a second line legit, a wildcard defenseman, and 1st round pick in a highly anticipated draft.

I think when we circle back on this topic in April, we might just be calling this a "win/win" deal. I don't think its a Nordique type, Forsberg/Ricci/Roy(via Thibault), calibre pick up, but it could be the turning point for a dismal organization. You spend all these years trying to draft pieces that fit around your All Star, just to wind up last in the league...it was time to change directions. Did Howson get the best return available? I can't pretend to know the answer, nor do I think anyone here can.

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07-24-2012, 12:41 PM
  #185
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Howson's Biggest mistake was asking for NHL ready forwards. All the teams on Nash's list were contenders. They dont want to get worse while trying to get better. That's why Seguin, Stepan, Kreider, Couture, etc were non-starters.

Howson should have just asked for top prospects and picks. Commit to the full rebuild so desperately needed.

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07-24-2012, 12:42 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by sal00 View Post
Lets hope that there's no such thing as karma, because there may be a very slim chance that 2-3 years from now the star player in this trade will struggle to a point where people will create a "www.didnashscore.com" and track his first goal. Then on the other end of the spectrum you'll have a no-name defensemen prospect who ends up being a up and coming top 4 and be labeled as the actual steal of the trade.
Rick Nash has scored 30+ goals in 7 of 9 NHL seasons he's played. Gomez scored 30 once in the 7 years before being traded to NY and never even scored 20 aside from that. Comparing their goal scoring ability is insane. The chances of them ending up in similar situations is so slim that its not even worth mentioning.

Erixon isn't a no name prospect - when NYR got him everyone was very excited about it. He's a first round pick and he was one of NYRs top prospects. I don't think anyone who was paying attention would be surprised to see him be a top 4 D man.

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07-24-2012, 12:43 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by hefsbeaver View Post
I could see Dubi coming in and becoming the captin and turing out to be a player for the BJ's like Ladd is for th peg. I am not a fan of either of these teams but I do not think it is as lopsidded as some are making it out to be. Only time will tell
JMFJ will be the captain.

I love Dubi, he's one of my favorites, but it will be Johnson.

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07-24-2012, 12:44 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by tyratoku View Post
I'll be completely honest, I forgot about them. That just supports what I said though, that Columbus really is building from the Blue line, and their future is bright. Murray could play this year, no? Erixon might be another year out, or he could play on the bottom pairing.

Something like:

Nikitin - Tyutin
Johnson - Murray/Erixon
Wiz - Murray/Erixon

Would work well, IMO. Rolling all three lines evenly or close to it. Playing Murray and Erixon each with a veteran could really help their game. Or you could possibly send Murray back to juniors to maybe work on his offensive game, while putting Wiz and Johnson together, and then pair Erixon with a low level defender?

Any way you put it, I think Columbus has a good blue line now, which is more than what could be said for most of last season. Congrats.
We're pretty certain that the top two pairings are set with RinTinTin and Controlled Chaos - er, pardon me, Tyutin-Nikitin and JMFJ-Wisniewski. The presumption is that Aucoin will likely be on the right of the bottom pairing, and whoever is the most impressive in training camp will be paired with him.

That of course doesn't address the #7D position, though, and nobody wants to have one of the kids languishing there, so there are theories that Aucoin may sit on the bench while two kids play, or maybe starts will be rotated on the bottom pairing, or something. It's kind of uncertain...

...and that is SO ****ING AWESOME OMFG

Quote:
Originally Posted by hefsbeaver View Post
I could see Dubi coming in and becoming the captin and turing out to be a player for the BJ's like Ladd is for th peg. I am not a fan of either of these teams but I do not think it is as lopsidded as some are making it out to be. Only time will tell
Early favorite to be the next Captain is JMFJ. Mostly because he wore the C for Team USA just recently.

(We've also kind of been collecting Americans of late, but that's really more an amusing side point for us patriots.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by nickschultzfan View Post
I'd be nice if Columbus could trade Wiz and Umberger for some good young players.
Absolutely no point in doing so. Both are effective leaders on the team - heck, JMFJ and Wiz are rapidly becoming Richards-Carter style BFFs, only with less partying and more cocky badass.

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07-24-2012, 12:45 PM
  #189
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Originally Posted by MardocAgain View Post
Howson's Biggest mistake was asking for NHL ready forwards. All the teams on Nash's list were contenders. They dont want to get worse while trying to get better. That's why Seguin, Stepan, Kreider, Couture, etc were non-starters.

Howson should have just asked for top prospects and picks. Commit to the full rebuild so desperately needed.
He has three 1st round picks in next years draft, 4 solid Defensive prospects, and 4 young goalies (Dansk, Korpisalo, Forsberg, Oullete). I think young NHL ready players like the 3 from NYR are just fine.

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07-24-2012, 12:45 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by MardocAgain View Post
Howson's Biggest mistake was asking for NHL ready forwards. All the teams on Nash's list were contenders. They dont want to get worse while trying to get better. That's why Seguin, Stepan, Kreider, Couture, etc were non-starters.

Howson should have just asked for top prospects and picks. Commit to the full rebuild so desperately needed.
Howson's biggest mistake was letting Rick Nash basically tell him where he wanted to be traded.

In all seriousness, the package isn't terrible, but alot depends on what happens with Erixon. Wild card right now. A motivated Erixon and Anisimov is just as valuable as Kreider, in my opinion.

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07-24-2012, 12:47 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by nickschultzfan View Post
I'd be nice if Columbus could trade Wiz and Umberger for some good young players.
should trade umberger to a team in the nw division so we can see him and kesler fight more

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07-24-2012, 12:48 PM
  #192
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Originally Posted by TSA0402 View Post
Howson's biggest mistake was letting Rick Nash basically tell him where he wanted to be traded.
In all seriousness, the package isn't terrible, but alot depends on what happens with Erixon. Wild card right now. A motivated Erixon and Anisimov is just as valuable as Kreider, in my opinion.
Its a NTC. What choice did he have besides to not trade him?

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07-24-2012, 12:51 PM
  #193
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Originally Posted by Beesfan View Post
This is a relatively fair trade. I think Columbus would have done better trading to Boston, because they probably would have gotten David Krejci + prospect (not Hamilton) + 1st.

That said, Columbus has significant depth at forward next year. Off the cuff, looks like the following:

Prospal - Brassard - Atkinson
Umburger - Anisimov - Johansen
Foligno - Dubinski - ?????

That's some good size, and they will get a lot more offense from their D-corps. Johnson, Nikitin, Savard and Erixon can all move the puck.

Goaltending will be weakest spot for this team next year.
Obviously the line combos will work themselves out later, but this gives a pretty good idea of team depth.

Prospal-Brassard-Dubinsky
Umberger-Johansen-Atkinson
Foligno-Anisimov-Letestu
Boll-Mackenzie-Dorsett

Calvert, Kubalik, Gillies, Russell, Jenner

Johnson-Wisniewski
Tyutin-Nikitin
Aucoin-Murray

Moore, Erixon, Savard


In that starting lineup there are 9 potential centers, 3 PMD, 5 triggermen defensemen, 8 two-way/grit fwds(6 who can also score) and nearly everyone in the top-9 has either 15+ goal/40+ point ability. They may not have an elite scoring winger, but this is by far the best D and most pro-ready depth the Jackets have ever had.

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07-24-2012, 12:52 PM
  #194
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Have you not been paying attention the past 6 months? Sather repeatedly said Kreider was off limits.
Well I don't live in NY so I may not have the whole story like you, but I never heard of Howsen asking for Kreider ONLY. I always heard of him asking for Kreider as part of a ridiculous package that included Del Zotto or McDonagh.

What I was referring to was why not ask for 1 player as a return, from the beginning.

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Nash demanded a trade, starting the pre-season with him on the roster would have been a disaster. NYR had plenty of other options they could have looked at. The pressure was solely on Howson, and he eventually blinked as he should have.
Again, I was referring to asking for one player from the beginning of the process. If you ask for say (only) Kreider from the Rangers, Schenn from the Flyers, and Couture from the Sharks, then you basically are playing a game of chicken with each of the three teams. 3 teams that have continually failed to bring home the big prize. And 2 of the three teams had big troubles scoring goals in 2011-2012. You can't say that that Sather and Wilson don't have any pressure on them. And even though Holmgren is likely safe for now, he did trade away 2 core players last off-season alluding to the fact that they were not fully committed to winning, and those two players ended playing a big role (at different times) in the Kings winning the cup. Oh and the goalie he signed to a ridiculous contract may not be the answer he was looking for.

Just saying...

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07-24-2012, 12:55 PM
  #195
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Originally Posted by Bench View Post
I hate this logic. Drives me nuts. Thanks for making fun of it.

Yeah, if you combine two moderate guys they get more points than one superstar. Of course, it's not like that one extra vacant spot after the superstar is going to be filled in by a trash can that scores ZERO points. Somebody will play on the 3rd line and they'll put up 20-30 points, too.
Well that depends. Considering Rick Nash is eating two players like Anisimov and Dubinsky's combined cap hits.. who is going to be brought up to replace them?

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07-24-2012, 12:56 PM
  #196
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Originally Posted by Nordique View Post
He has three 1st round picks in next years draft, 4 solid Defensive prospects, and 4 young goalies (Dansk, Korpisalo, Forsberg, Oullete). I think young NHL ready players like the 3 from NYR are just fine.
I think you completely missed my point.

I was saying he could have gotten a better return if he had not asked teams to give up parts of their current rosters. Contending teams are more willing to give up futures. I hope this isnt to complicated of a notion.

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07-24-2012, 01:01 PM
  #197
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Its a NTC. What choice did he have besides to not trade him?
Not trade him unless he gets back a key piece. How many people are satisfied, compared to relieved with this trade?

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07-24-2012, 01:03 PM
  #198
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Good trade for both clubs. CJ fans will love Dubinsky as he is a far better player than he showed last season. He is a competitive, in your face player that does well carrying and protecting the puck. Anisimov has a ton of skill, but lacks confidence. Getting away from the Hurricane Totorella will do Anisimov a lot of good. Erixon is an outstanding prospect and a sure-fire top 4 d-man. With 3 #1's in a deep draft, this is a big year for CBJ. I will be pulling for them to do well.

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07-24-2012, 01:07 PM
  #199
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The most significant question will be how is he going to fit in to the Rangers "defense first" way of doing things. He has never been forced to be conscious of his defensive game, so this could be a problem for the Rangers. In the end, in terms of value, I like this deal for the Blue Jackets. It gives them a balance of players that can contribute now, and players to build with in the future.
I didn't watch Columbus when Hitchcock was coaching them but I can't imagine Hitch not demanding some level of defensive competency out of his team. Coincidentally, those were some of Nash's best years...

Tortorella doesn't exactly demand his best offensive players just sit back and play defense at all times, he just wants them to work hard and be aware on the ice of putting themselves into bad positions. No one is ever going to say Gaborik is a great defensive player, but in general he at least gets back on defense and works hard.

Tortorella might also mix up his strategy a bit with some more talent in the lineup. Hard to say until the season starts.

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07-24-2012, 01:13 PM
  #200
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I'll have to check my notes but i think the jackets got fleeced.

How does Sather do it?

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