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All Purpose Trades/UFA/Roster Discussion Thread (Happy DVM?) Part III

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Old
08-01-2012, 04:44 AM
  #301
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
That's not really an argument for Koivu. It's just an example of how weak Anaheim is down the middle. If Bonino out-plays Koivu, do you really want to see Selanne stay with Koivu just because of chemistry? I don't. Koivu just isn't that dangerous offensively. All that chemistry they are reported to have hasn't meant all that much for the Ducks.
Yeah outside of Getzlaf the Ducks don't have that great centers but Koivu is best what there is. So it is an argument for Koivu being better than Bonino. And you want the best players to be in the top 6 right? And you want Selänne to have the best center right? Koivu is the answer.

I'm all in for Bonino outplaying Koivu but I'm not convinced that he'll end up playing with Selänne if Ryan-Bonino-Palmieri -line really breaks through.

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Old
08-01-2012, 05:43 AM
  #302
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Originally Posted by JabbaJabba View Post
Yeah outside of Getzlaf the Ducks don't have that great centers but Koivu is best what there is. So it is an argument for Koivu being better than Bonino. And you want the best players to be in the top 6 right? And you want Selänne to have the best center right? Koivu is the answer.

I'm all in for Bonino outplaying Koivu but I'm not convinced that he'll end up playing with Selänne if Ryan-Bonino-Palmieri -line really breaks through.
The argument isn't that Bonino is better than Koivu, it's the other way around. I rather have Koivu as the 3rd line center because it makes the team deeper.

A middle six of:

Ryan - Bonino/Holland - Selanne (scoring line)
Winnik - Koivu - Smith-Pelly (shutdown line)

is imo a better middle six than:

Ryan - Bonino/Holland - Palmieri (don't know what line/POTENTIAL scoring line)
Cogliano - Koivu - Selanne (don't know what line)

The first 2nd line option should be much more dangerous offensively (unless Palmieri finally breaks out and Selanne falls apart). The first 3rd line option would be much bigger, more physical and would serve more of a purpose.

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08-01-2012, 12:11 PM
  #303
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The notion of a "shut-down" line is silly at this point. Koivu, Winnik, and Smith-Pelly aren't going to contain other team's top lines on a regular basis. However, I still like the notion of splitting them up because it works out better for our strengths and weaknesses.

First, it's allowing Koivu to player in a more limited role, where his minutes won't be as high and he'll likely be more useful on the second powerplay unit and the first penalty kill unit.

But aside from that, he's not a very dangerous offensive player at this point in his career. I'd much rather have the young guys out there (particularly Holland) who've got a lot more in the tank and are breaking out into the NHL. They'll be looking to make a statement and there's going to be a hell of a chance to do that alongside Ryan and Selanne. As opposed to "throwing them in with the sharks," per say (and counting on a rookie line to produce).

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08-01-2012, 12:32 PM
  #304
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Originally Posted by PuqTalk View Post
The notion of a "shut-down" line is silly at this point. Koivu, Winnik, and Smith-Pelly aren't going to contain other team's top lines on a regular basis. However, I still like the notion of splitting them up because it works out better for our strengths and weaknesses.
How many shut down lines can contain other team's top lines on a regular basis? They won't be as good as the Pahlsson line was, but how often do you see a checking line that effective? Winnik/Koivu/DSP should be better than Nokelainen/Artyukhin/Miller/Chipchura/Bodie and all other checking line experiments we've seen in the last few years.

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08-01-2012, 01:06 PM
  #305
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Originally Posted by Elvstrand View Post
How many shut down lines can contain other team's top lines on a regular basis? They won't be as good as the Pahlsson line was, but how often do you see a checking line that effective? Winnik/Koivu/DSP should be better than Nokelainen/Artyukhin/Miller/Chipchura/Bodie and all other checking line experiments we've seen in the last few years.
I agree with you (I think that could be a very solid line). I guess my point was kind of convoluted. Aside from any issues with the bottom six, I think it benefits the team's offense even more by slotting Koivu down a spot.

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08-01-2012, 02:17 PM
  #306
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If it's was an issue for Teemu, what makes you think it won't be an issue for Perry? I think the fact that Perry won a Hart Trophy gives him a level of seniority where he can play on his stronger side. Why force a square peg into a round hole? If Bobby Ryan isn't a perfect fit with Getzlaf and Perry, why do we think Selanne would be any better at all?
Hart trophy? Seniority? A perfect fit? I'm talking about sliding Selanne up with Getzlaf and Perry for the occasional boost, a different look. A spark. You guys are talking about it like its a franchise-shifting decision. Coaches do this all the time to change momentum, give slumping players a spark...that's all I'm talking about.

As I said in my first post on the subject "I don't think we'll see Teemu on the top line regularly...but I think you'll see Selanne slid around the lines a little bit to provide a spark, instead of carrying his own."

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08-01-2012, 04:48 PM
  #307
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Originally Posted by kenabnrmal View Post
Hart trophy? Seniority? A perfect fit? I'm talking about sliding Selanne up with Getzlaf and Perry for the occasional boost, a different look. A spark. You guys are talking about it like its a franchise-shifting decision. Coaches do this all the time to change momentum, give slumping players a spark...that's all I'm talking about.

As I said in my first post on the subject "I don't think we'll see Teemu on the top line regularly...but I think you'll see Selanne slid around the lines a little bit to provide a spark, instead of carrying his own."
That's when Ryan is put with Getzlaf and Perry, because he's a better fit for them, and he has plenty of experience on that side. It doesn't need to be a life-altering decision to follow certain patterns. When you're trying to find a spark, you generally don't do it by putting people into new situations, or in positions they might be somewhat uncomfortable in. Selanne is only on the left side during the PP, and then because it improves his shooting angle. At even strength, it's a disadvantage for him to be on that side, because it puts him on his backhand for passes, and it makes it more difficult for him to protect the puck. Not to mention he's better with a transition game than he is a cycling game.

Yes, it's possible that Selanne sees time with them at times at even strength(excluding times between line changes which don't count), but if I were a betting man, I think the odds are against it. Ryan makes infinitely more sense with them, to provide that spark, on top of the success they've had together in the past. I think Boudreau would have to be pretty desperate to try it, with so many better options available to him. If it comes to that, I think Anaheim would be in trouble.

Edit: And the Perry part of my response was due to your remark that if Selanne is uncomfortable on that side, then just slide Perry over. That doesn't "solve" any issue with Selanne being on his off-wing. It just transplants the problem onto another player; one who is just as likely as Selanne to be uncomfortable with the adjustment. That's yet another reason why Ryan makes more sense when you're trying to ignite the offense.


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Old
08-01-2012, 05:07 PM
  #308
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Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
That's when Ryan is put with Getzlaf and Perry, because he's a better fit for them, and he has plenty of experience on that side. It doesn't need to be a life-altering decision to follow certain patterns. When you're trying to find a spark, you generally don't do it by putting people into new situations, or in positions they might be somewhat uncomfortable in. Selanne is only on the left side during the PP, and then because it improves his shooting angle. At even strength, it's a disadvantage for him to be on that side, because it puts him on his backhand for passes, and it makes it more difficult for him to protect the puck. Not to mention he's better with a transition game than he is a cycling game.

Yes, it's possible that Selanne sees time with them at times at even strength(excluding times between line changes which don't count), but if I were a betting man, I think the odds are against it. Ryan makes infinitely more sense with them, to provide that spark, on top of the success they've had together in the past. I think Boudreau would have to be pretty desperate to try it, with so many better options available to him. If it comes to that, I think Anaheim would be in trouble.

Edit: And the Perry part of my response was due to your remark that if Selanne is uncomfortable on that side, then just slide Perry over. That doesn't "solve" any issue with Selanne being on his off-wing. It just transplants the problem onto another player; one who is just as likely as Selanne to be uncomfortable with the adjustment. That's yet another reason why Ryan makes more sense when you're trying to ignite the offense.
I guess I think you're over-analyzing things a bit...yeah, Ryan's a great fit there. But, I don't see any logical reason why Teemu wouldn't be able to adapt to the left wing for a few shifts to spice things up if Bobby and the kids happen to hit the skids for a little bit. Especially since when a line is cycling, positions matter even less...all three forwards are focused on one side of the ice until the puck leaves the zone.

It won't happen much, maybe not at all, but I don't think it's that out of the question or a sign of disaster. I don't see positions as rigidly...especially for top-end guys in very temporary situations. I could be entirely off-base, and maybe BB would laugh me out of the room if he read the thread.

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Old
08-01-2012, 06:04 PM
  #309
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08-01-2012, 07:26 PM
  #310
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God damn it, Bobby. If he ****s this up, we need to start talking to Winnipeg and Columbus about a possible trade.

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08-02-2012, 12:57 PM
  #311
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So glad finally Koivu and Selanne are in different lines in some post. They had chemistry, but nowadays they are different players and didn't see much chemistry in those games I watched last year (ca. 7 games). They can't produce even strength. I think Selanne benefits faster and bigger center now when he is more playmaker than before and Koivu can be good 3rd line center with no so much pressure to score. If it don't work out you can allways reunite them.

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08-02-2012, 04:32 PM
  #312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by agent082 View Post
So glad finally Koivu and Selanne are in different lines in some post. They had chemistry, but nowadays they are different players and didn't see much chemistry in those games I watched last year (ca. 7 games). They can't produce even strength. I think Selanne benefits faster and bigger center now when he is more playmaker than before and Koivu can be good 3rd line center with no so much pressure to score. If it don't work out you can allways reunite them.
I am not a fan of Koivu+Selanne as a combo, either, but right now, I think it's our best option. They have been decent with Cogliano for stretches. But more importantly, I have a hard time putting together a line with Koivu and without Selanne that I would be optimistic about. I don't want Ryan on the top line, and if I'm having Ryan with Selanne on the 2nd line, that leaves me with Koivu, Palmieri and Cogliano/Winnik/DSP as a third line, which I really can't make anything of in my head. At this point, I'd absolutely prefer to see Ryan with Bonino/Holland and Palmieri and the Finns with Cogliano. I'd be happy to be wrong, but I have a hard time seeing our middle-6 upgraded by breaking up Teemu and Saku.

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08-02-2012, 04:44 PM
  #313
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welp

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Old
08-02-2012, 09:28 PM
  #314
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Nothing interesting so far. Bobby says that he'll be visiting Philly soon, when the Ducks go there early in the season: "pending I'm still with the Ducks". Sounds like he's still a little worried about being traded, but it doesn't sound like he's expecting it.

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08-02-2012, 09:32 PM
  #315
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He's optimistic that the NHL will be playing that early in the season. Everything seems to indicate there won't be any hockey before December.

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08-02-2012, 09:35 PM
  #316
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He politely made it know how much he likes how BB interfaces with the players.

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08-02-2012, 09:45 PM
  #317
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Kevin Dineen is his favorite coach. He wants to be traded to Florida.

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08-02-2012, 09:58 PM
  #318
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Bobby done. Personable interview. They couldn't ask about the interview from back in June and the guys said that talking earlier Bobby took a lot of heat about the interview and didn't want to cross a line and put him in that kind of spot.

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08-02-2012, 09:59 PM
  #319
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Surprised he gave up his favorite shootout move. I know teams scout all that but still wouldn't think he would just volunteer it.

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08-03-2012, 12:56 AM
  #320
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Few things that stood out to me:

About internal competition, Ryan said there wasn't much but the Twins let him know when he's struggling. They laugh and joke around but push each other to be better.

If there's a lockout he won't be going overseas.

Coaching change brought a new mentality. Better communication, open environment, and a new voice.

Captaincy: Doesn't matter who has the letter as it is much more media driven but Getzlaf has grown as a player since he has had it.

About Giroux: Said he gives his heart and soul every shift, great team guy, great leader, fun to watch, can do everything and can do it well, can carry the team ... blah blah blah

Which player he loves/ would love to play along side: First name is Getzlaf, then of course Giroux.... but again he said "don't read too much into it" .... well now...

About going back to Philly: He mentioned playing there early next season "pending If I'm still a Duck." Only time he says "Duck", but does say 'we' though.

About dealing with rumors: He wears his heart on his sleeve and likes to know what is being said or where people are placing him. Watches TSN/ESPN and was miserable all the time and making those around him miserable. Turns off his phone and tries to tunes the media out. Gets frustrated when the media keeps asking about stuff they have no inside information on.

Takes things personally, wears his heart on his sleeve, and easily frustrated by media... he needs to keep them from distracting him and affecting him.

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08-03-2012, 01:24 AM
  #321
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Ryan plays his best with lesser players. I still think one of the best stretches of Ryan's career was the Ryan-Koivu-Sexton line. Obviously Sexton blows, but that line was great, because Ryan put K/S on his back and made that line good. Similar to how Ryan made Parros and Carter score in a the ~10 games he played with them in his rookie season.

IMO Ryan is a player who makes those around him better, but struggles when hes not the man facilitating the offense. Thats why he clicked with Koivu and Sexton, and made Sexton look like he could possibly hack it. And made Koivu look like a good 2C. Which is why it probably makes the most sense to use 3 scoring lines with Ryan on his own line, versus 2 and a shutdown unit, although I prefer that style of play. Id like Ryan-Holland-Selanne to work, but I dont know if thatd bring out the best in Teemu or Bobby, because we could have a shutdown line of DSP-Koivu-Winnik. But if Ryan-Bonino-DSP/KP allows Ryan to thrive then we should try it.
I think this post is spot on. I just don't agree that Ryan should be on the same line with Selanne or Getzlaf. Even when Ryan was a line with Bonino rather than Getzlaf he just seemed more comfortable.

I understand the disagreement. Many believe that Ryan just had one of his streaks, personally I believe he was just being used properly.

As for seperating Koivu and Selanne: I'm not really against it specifically, but I still think Koivu is better then Bonino, and forcing Holland into that role is a giant mistake. Quite simply something has to be added to the top six. Whether its a center or a winger, it needs to happen. There's too much youth and old age being counted on for vital roles.

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08-03-2012, 01:27 AM
  #322
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Ryan mentioned something about 'taking the bait' when he was asked about the rumours etc, and how he gave some journalists info for an insider article (something like that). Sounds like he's quite unhappy with how the Randy Miller article played out.

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08-03-2012, 01:58 AM
  #323
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The other problem with giving Ryan a line with Bonino and Palmieri is that both the Getzlaf line and Koivu line each have weak links. I don't think DSP is close to being ready to playing with Getzlaf and Perry against other teams top defensive units and Cogliano and his stone hands (not to mention Koivu's declining offense) drag down the Selanne line.

Ryan plays best when he is the primary puck carrier on his line, which he would definitely be on a line with Holland and Selanne. It would also mean Selanne wouldn't have to handle the puck as much which is never a bad thing.
There's going to be a weak link on any combination with the current roster. Many are proposing the Ryan-Holland-Selanne line. A rooke as your 2nd line center is a weak link IMO. I don't like the idea of a checking line. I think that concept thrives only with a physical very good defensively center. I believe the reason Pahlsson fell off so much after the cup year was that after his surgery, he just couldn't be as physical as he was. Didn't he lead the team in hits the cup year? Don't get me wrong it does require physical wingers, which we do have, but Koivu is not the answer IMO. If that was Murray's plan, he should have targeted someone more physical like McClement.

Anyway you cut it something needs to be done. Even if we do see Ryan and Selanne together, that leaves DSP as our most likely candidate for the top line. That's putting him in a situation he's not ready for.

Murray can't be finished. I just hope he's waiting a little longer to see if someone will bite on his demands for Ryan. We need another center, but I'd settle for a legit top 6 forward at any position. Hell, I'd settle for some bargain bin shopping by Murray if he adds Arnott and Fehr.

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08-03-2012, 02:01 AM
  #324
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Originally Posted by Jesus Teemu View Post
Ryan mentioned something about 'taking the bait' when he was asked about the rumours etc, and how he gave some journalists info for an insider article (something like that). Sounds like he's quite unhappy with how the Randy Miller article played out.
That's on Ryan though. He's gotta know that's what reporters are going to ask him because that's what they're paid to do.

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08-03-2012, 02:31 AM
  #325
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There's going to be a weak link on any combination with the current roster. Many are proposing the Ryan-Holland-Selanne line. A rooke as your 2nd line center is a weak link IMO. I don't like the idea of a checking line. I think that concept thrives only with a physical very good defensively center. I believe the reason Pahlsson fell off so much after the cup year was that after his surgery, he just couldn't be as physical as he was. Didn't he lead the team in hits the cup year? Don't get me wrong it does require physical wingers, which we do have, but Koivu is not the answer IMO. If that was Murray's plan, he should have targeted someone more physical like McClement.
Holland between Ryan and Selanne is that big of a weak point. It's a lot better than Ryan playing with Palmieri (who is barely more proven than Holland) and Bonino (who I'll admit has shown some promise but in all likelihood will probably top out as a third line centre). Not to mention that would mean sticking Teemu on a line with Cogs and Koivu which is not fair on Teemu. And I don't even want to think about DSP on the top line, unless he improves a ton over the off season, he's not good enough for that role right now.

What I'm trying to say is that I'd rather try and establish two scoring lines before we try and spread the offense over three lines. And the Koivu line wouldn't be a set checking line like the Pahlsson line was, it would be a defensively responsible line that is capable of eating some heavy minutes which would give the Selanne line time against lesser opponents. Which again puts Holland in an ideal situation to start his career, playing soft minutes with a hall of famer and a 30 goal scorer.

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