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Extend Burke?

View Poll Results: Extend Burke?
Hell, NO! 75 30.74%
Yes 1yr. 15 6.15%
Yes 2yr 65 26.64%
Yes 3+yr 89 36.48%
Voters: 244. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
07-24-2012, 01:23 PM
  #51
Leafidelity
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He should be and more than likely will be.

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07-24-2012, 01:45 PM
  #52
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Depends on if he gets Bernier or not! If not,get Kevin Lowe's ph#.
ew no thanks

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07-24-2012, 01:58 PM
  #53
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The leafs have finished 7th last, 2nd last, 9th last, and 5th last since Burke arrived.
If your response to that is "he was left with nothing when he came here", then, in that case, Burke shouldn't have traded away his next two first round picks (and a 2nd rounder, that ended up being only two...TWO... spots away from being another 1st rounder).

No matter how you slice it, he ****ed up.

The leafs have finished somewhere around 5th worst in the league, when averaging their total points over the past four seasons.
That means (given the drafting advantages of finishing lower in the standings) that the leafs prospects should AT LEAST be top 5 in the league. And that's not even taking into consideration that Burke has the highest paid scouting department in the league to help him out.

I doubt even the most loyal of leafs fans can say that we have a top 5 prospect pool. According to prospect rankings (made from consensus of nhl pro scouts), the leafs are utterly mediocre with prospects.

We're still suffering from the same mess that's plagued the leafs for a decade... pathetic amounts of ELITE talent in the system. Sure, we a good defensman in there, but the rest are average at best. 3rd liners, 4th-5th string defensmen. Sure, we might get a surprise or two... but EVERY team has mediocre players in the system that might surprise. After four years of utter futility, the future doesn't look NEARLY good enough.

He should be fired. There's no real question about it.

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07-24-2012, 02:05 PM
  #54
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Wow, it is unbelievable that 75% of people answering this poll want Burke extended. Are you not tired of his lame excuses, his refusal to pull out all the stops to make this team a playoff contender? Burke has been nothing but a dismal failure in Toronto, and there is little hope for the future, don't delude yourself into thinking that these prospects that he has amassed with be more than mediocre.

This is the most profitable team in the NHL. The Toronto Maple Leafs should be the New York Yankees of the NHL, willing to do ANYTHING to win. The Leafs should be using the methods that the Philadelphia Flyers use to build their team instead of using the methods teams like Phoenix and the New York Islanders use to build.

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07-24-2012, 02:10 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Bill Derlago View Post
Wow, it is unbelievable that 75% of people answering this poll want Burke extended. Are you not tired of his lame excuses, his refusal to pull out all the stops to make this team a playoff contender? Burke has been nothing but a dismal failure in Toronto, and there is little hope for the future, don't delude yourself into thinking that these prospects that he has amassed with be more than mediocre.

This is the most profitable team in the NHL. The Toronto Maple Leafs should be the New York Yankees of the NHL, willing to do ANYTHING to win. The Leafs should be using the methods that the Philadelphia Flyers use to build their team instead of using the methods teams like Phoenix and the New York Islanders use to build.
Unlike baseball there is something called a hard salary cap which Toronto has spent to every year.

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07-24-2012, 02:13 PM
  #56
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Unlike baseball there is something called a hard salary cap which Toronto has spent to every year.
The leafs have an up to $15 million advantage over a substantial amount of the competition (not to mention highest paid GM ever, highest paid front office, highest paid scouting department).

Pointing out that Burke DOES spend to the cap ceiling (but STILL can't come close to winning) is a criticism of Burke. Not a compliment.

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07-24-2012, 02:16 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
The leafs have finished 7th last, 2nd last, 9th last, and 5th last since Burke arrived.
If your response to that is "he was left with nothing when he came here", then, in that case, Burke shouldn't have traded away his next two first round picks (and a 2nd rounder, that ended up being only two...TWO... spots away from being another 1st rounder).

No matter how you slice it, he ****ed up.

The leafs have finished somewhere around 5th worst in the league, when averaging their total points over the past four seasons.
That means (given the drafting advantages of finishing lower in the standings) that the leafs prospects should AT LEAST be top 5 in the league. And that's not even taking into consideration that Burke has the highest paid scouting department in the league to help him out.

I doubt even the most loyal of leafs fans can say that we have a top 5 prospect pool. According to prospect rankings (made from consensus of nhl pro scouts), the leafs are utterly mediocre with prospects.

We're still suffering from the same mess that's plagued the leafs for a decade... pathetic amounts of ELITE talent in the system. Sure, we a good defensman in there, but the rest are average at best. 3rd liners, 4th-5th string defensmen. Sure, we might get a surprise or two... but EVERY team has mediocre players in the system that might surprise. After four years of utter futility, the future doesn't look NEARLY good enough.

He should be fired. There's no real question about it.

Excellent point here. You can't really dispute what the numbers say.

I'd also like to add in with this discussion that even though he got some talent in Kessel and Phaneuf, the others have been questionable. Burke got lucky with Gardiner playing as well as he did. He took a huge risk acquiring Lupul after coming off his injury. The same goes for obtaining Matt Lombardi after suffering a major concussion. Would I have done that trade? 100 times over. But look at where that puts the organization. He's strapped with another useless contract on the books, but has a 5-6 defenceman that could be traded or kept around as a 7th dman. Then he signs Tim Connolly who has his worst statistical year of his career, Mike Komisarek who played just over half a season last year --- meaning he was a press box hero at a 4.5 million cap hit, Colby Armstrong that was overpaid (hindsight of course) but paying a 3rd liner 3 million is questionable to begin with. Just a lot of questionable moves that he's done.

He's changed the make-up of the prospects, but don't you think that any general manager that comes into a new job will do the same thing?

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07-24-2012, 02:24 PM
  #58
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He signed a 6 year contract, wouldn't be surprised to see him stay for the full length before leafs ownership decides to go in a different direction if it still isn't working out. That's another 2 years of Burke.

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07-24-2012, 02:27 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by showtime8 View Post
Excellent point here. You can't really dispute what the numbers say.

I'd also like to add in with this discussion that even though he got some talent in Kessel and Phaneuf, the others have been questionable. Burke got lucky with Gardiner playing as well as he did. He took a huge risk acquiring Lupul after coming off his injury. The same goes for obtaining Matt Lombardi after suffering a major concussion. Would I have done that trade? 100 times over. But look at where that puts the organization. He's strapped with another useless contract on the books, but has a 5-6 defenceman that could be traded or kept around as a 7th dman. Then he signs Tim Connolly who has his worst statistical year of his career, Mike Komisarek who played just over half a season last year --- meaning he was a press box hero at a 4.5 million cap hit, Colby Armstrong that was overpaid (hindsight of course) but paying a 3rd liner 3 million is questionable to begin with. Just a lot of questionable moves that he's done.

He's changed the make-up of the prospects, but don't you think that any general manager that comes into a new job will do the same thing?
I like to say that the leafs prospect pool looks like a team that's been in and out of the playoffs the past four years. If the leafs actually WERE a playoff bubble team four years in a row, I'd have no problems with our prospects.
BUT WE'VE FINISHED BOTTOM TEN (TWICE BOTTOM 5) FOUR YEARS IN A ROW!!!!

Compared to what Ferguson did, our prospects look ok. (and that's where many leaf fans get confused).
But compared to WHERE WE'VE PLACED IN THE STANDINGS under Burke, our prospects are utterly terrible.
Once you add in that he's the highest paid GM EVER, and he has the highest paid scouting department in the entire league to help him with these decisions... it just starts to get embarrassing.

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07-24-2012, 02:28 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Bill Derlago View Post
Wow, it is unbelievable that 75% of people answering this poll want Burke extended. Are you not tired of his lame excuses, his refusal to pull out all the stops to make this team a playoff contender? Burke has been nothing but a dismal failure in Toronto, and there is little hope for the future, don't delude yourself into thinking that these prospects that he has amassed with be more than mediocre.

This is the most profitable team in the NHL. The Toronto Maple Leafs should be the New York Yankees of the NHL, willing to do ANYTHING to win. The Leafs should be using the methods that the Philadelphia Flyers use to build their team instead of using the methods teams like Phoenix and the New York Islanders use to build.
In 1998 the Flyers traded Chris Gratton and Mike Sillinger for Mikheal Renberg, and had Daymond Langkow throw in, and then flourished in Philly, who traded him to
Phoenix for a 1st round pick in 2003, who eneded up being Jeff Carter.

At the same time, the Leafs traded their 1st round pick for Owen Nolan.

Coming out of the lockout, the Flyers signed UFA Peter Forsberg. Unfortunately, things didn't work out and in 2007 Forsberg was traded to Nashville for Ryan Parent, Scottie Upshall, and Nashville's first and third round 2007.

After the season the 1st was traded back to Nashville for the rights to Scott Hartnell and Kimmo Timmonen. They also drafted James Van Reimsdyk and signed Daniel Briere.

During this same period, the Leafs traded a 2nd round pick and Brendan Bell for UFA rental Yannick Perreault, and then a 1st, 2nd and 4th round pick for Vesa Toskala and Mark Bell, while signing Jason Blake.

In 2009, Philly traded Lupul, Sbisa and 2 1st rounders for Chris Pronger, who as of now is a lost asset.

So tell me, how was Burke supposed to make up 6-8 years of work by the Flyers management, so that he'd have had the assets to have made the bold moves Holmgren has done in Philly. If the Leafs had 2 players like Richards and Carter when he took over, maybe this could have been expected earlier.

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07-24-2012, 02:30 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by smoke meat pete View Post
In 1998 the Flyers traded Chris Gratton and Mike Sillinger for Mikheal Renberg, and had Daymond Langkow throw in, and then flourished in Philly, who traded him to
Phoenix for a 1st round pick in 2003, who eneded up being Jeff Carter.

At the same time, the Leafs traded their 1st round pick for Owen Nolan.

Coming out of the lockout, the Flyers signed UFA Peter Forsberg. Unfortunately, things didn't work out and in 2007 Forsberg was traded to Nashville for Ryan Parent, Scottie Upshall, and Nashville's first and third round 2007.

After the season the 1st was traded back to Nashville for the rights to Scott Hartnell and Kimmo Timmonen. They also drafted James Van Reimsdyk and signed Daniel Briere.

During this same period, the Leafs traded a 2nd round pick and Brendan Bell for UFA rental Yannick Perreault, and then a 1st, 2nd and 4th round pick for Vesa Toskala and Mark Bell, while signing Jason Blake.

In 2009, Philly traded Lupul, Sbisa and 2 1st rounders for Chris Pronger, who as of now is a lost asset.

So tell me, how was Burke supposed to make up 6-8 years of work by the Flyers management, so that he'd have had the assets to have made the bold moves Holmgren has done in Philly. If the Leafs had 2 players like Richards and Carter when he took over, maybe this could have been expected earlier.
Well, if the cupboards were as bare as you suggested... a good start for Burke would be to hold onto his next two first round ****ing picks.

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07-24-2012, 02:31 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
Well, if the cupboards were as bare as you suggested... a good start for Burke would be to hold onto his next two first round ****ing picks.
You're preaching to the choir there mister.

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07-24-2012, 02:34 PM
  #63
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I voted two years, lets see if he can land someone good with the extra cap space. He can always be cut loose anyways and as aforementioned, the younger kids should be coming into their own as well so what is another year, maybe two at this point?

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07-24-2012, 02:38 PM
  #64
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Excellent point here. You can't really dispute what the numbers say.
What numbers is it you think can't be disputed?

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07-24-2012, 02:42 PM
  #65
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Well, if the cupboards were as bare as you suggested... a good start for Burke would be to hold onto his next two first round ****ing picks.
If the pick that turns out to be Seguin ends up being even 1 draft slot lower we'd have built a statue for Burke by now. Hamilton still hasn't proven anything and was actually drafted lower then Kadri. There is also no gurantee Burke would have drafted Hamilton.

It was a high risk trade and it didn't work out ideally for us.

But if your going to fault Burke for that trade then at the same time you have to give him credit for fleecing Anahiem and Calgary.

Burke has made his fair share of mistakes but he really hasn't had much time to build this team. Burke came into the Leafs with the cupboards bare and people need to quit acting like a franchise can be completely turned around in such a short period of time.

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07-24-2012, 02:42 PM
  #66
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Well, if the cupboards were as bare as you suggested... a good start for Burke would be to hold onto his next two first round ****ing picks.
Exactly. We can't have it both ways. The "look what he had to work with when he started" argument is usually followed by the hindsight logic of "he couldn't have known the Leafs would be that terrible". Either way, it comes across badly for him because he is paid to assess the talent level of his club.

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07-24-2012, 02:46 PM
  #67
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Hell no.

I'm leaning more towards him being canned before his contract is up not getting an extension for making a team that can't win. At most you wait until the contract is up and decide then. He can't even seem to make the team he wants to and yet he's done a good enough job to deserve more years? Are we that attached to failure at this point that we'll cling to Burke?

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07-24-2012, 02:54 PM
  #68
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Exactly. We can't have it both ways. The "look what he had to work with when he started" argument is usually followed by the hindsight logic of "he couldn't have known the Leafs would be that terrible". Either way, it comes across badly for him because he is paid to assess the talent level of his club.
Burke already has held himself accountable for not assessing the team properly. Many times in the media.

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07-24-2012, 02:56 PM
  #69
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Unlike baseball there is something called a hard salary cap which Toronto has spent to every year.
I hate to use the Flyers as an example (mainly because I don't like them), but you can't argue that they've haven't been successful. Since the early 90's, they have missed the playoffs once. They've been a perennial playoff contender before and after the salary cap was brought in.

Why have the Flyers been so successful for almost 20 years? They are aggressive and are willing to do anything to win. You can't say that about the Leafs under Brian Burke. Burke has made some aggressive moves as Leafs GM, but they were the wrong moves. During the entire time he has been in Toronto, Burke has been unable to obtain a #1 goalie or #1 centre that are worthy of a playoff-calibre team, and any other failure Burke has experienced as Leafs GM has been a result of this.

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07-24-2012, 02:59 PM
  #70
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Exactly. We can't have it both ways. The "look what he had to work with when he started" argument is usually followed by the hindsight logic of "he couldn't have known the Leafs would be that terrible". Either way, it comes across badly for him because he is paid to assess the talent level of his club.

The comment wasn't really meant to spark a Kessel trade debate. It was more about the depth of the organizations. For the Flyers over the past 5-6 years compared to the Leafs the last 2-3 years. The Kessel deal is a prime example of how the Leafs could ill afford for a trade to backfire, which it has, whereas Philly has the depth to accomodate 6 1st round picks+Lupul and Sbisa for Pronger who got injured and replaced by Webber (maybe).

Holmgren has taken a very aggressive approach, and has yet to succeed. Maybe someday he will, but also maybe someday it will bite him in the ass.

He's traded away 1st round picks in 2009, 2010, 2011, 2013,2014,2015, 2016. Isn't that the kind of trading that people here are so angry about with the Leafs?

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07-24-2012, 03:09 PM
  #71
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If the pick that turns out to be Seguin ends up being even 1 draft slot lower we'd have built a statue for Burke by now. Hamilton still hasn't proven anything and was actually drafted lower then Kadri. There is also no gurantee Burke would have drafted Hamilton.

It was a high risk trade and it didn't work out ideally for us.

But if your going to fault Burke for that trade then at the same time you have to give him credit for fleecing Anahiem and Calgary.

Burke has made his fair share of mistakes but he really hasn't had much time to build this team. Burke came into the Leafs with the cupboards bare and people need to quit acting like a franchise can be completely turned around in such a short period of time.
I think Boston FLEECED us in one of the most embarrassing fashions I've ever seen. Imagine... assessing a player as expendable, trading him for picks, WINNING THE CUP (thus proving he was expendable), and then drafting 2nd overall and 9th overall (and 32nd overall... measly 2 spots away from another 1st). Acquiring a franchise centerman and the current highest ranked defensive prospect in the world... during two deep stanley cup runs. What did they lose? A player they deemed expendable, that they had no problem winning the cup without.
It's just so ridiculous.

In regards to Burke "fleecing" Calgary... yikes.
We traded scraps to a team for a player that team didn't even want (due to being DRAMATICALLY overpaid.)
We lost scraps, and have the dramatically overpaid player. They have scraps, and got rid of the frivolous cap hit.
Seems like a wash.

And yes, I always liked the Lupul trade. It's one of the only good things Burke did. Kaberle trade was a wash. Boston desperately needed defensive depth for their cup run. So they over paid a bit, AND THEN WON THE CUP!!! They wouldn't say they lost... neither would I.

So, for Burke's record, I'd say he's done numerous DISASTERS, a few washes, and pathetically few "good" moves. All as the highest paid GM in league history.
It's just not good enough. Nowhere NEAR good enough.

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07-24-2012, 03:12 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
The leafs have finished 7th last, 2nd last, 9th last, and 5th last since Burke arrived.
If your response to that is "he was left with nothing when he came here", then, in that case, Burke shouldn't have traded away his next two first round picks (and a 2nd rounder, that ended up being only two...TWO... spots away from being another 1st rounder).

No matter how you slice it, he ****ed up.

The leafs have finished somewhere around 5th worst in the league, when averaging their total points over the past four seasons.

That means (given the drafting advantages of finishing lower in the standings) that the leafs prospects should AT LEAST be top 5 in the league. And that's not even taking into consideration that Burke has the highest paid scouting department in the league to help him out.

I doubt even the most loyal of leafs fans can say that we have a top 5 prospect pool. According to prospect rankings (made from consensus of nhl pro scouts), the leafs are utterly mediocre with prospects.

We're still suffering from the same mess that's plagued the leafs for a decade... pathetic amounts of ELITE talent in the system. Sure, we a good defensman in there, but the rest are average at best. 3rd liners, 4th-5th string defensmen. Sure, we might get a surprise or two... but EVERY team has mediocre players in the system that might surprise. After four years of utter futility, the future doesn't look NEARLY good enough.

He should be fired. There's no real question about it.
You forgot the part about Burke being the highest paid GM in league.


edit: Never mind, you got it in your next post.

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07-24-2012, 03:13 PM
  #73
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I wonder how many of you work for MLSE

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07-24-2012, 03:14 PM
  #74
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The comment wasn't really meant to spark a Kessel trade debate. It was more about the depth of the organizations. For the Flyers over the past 5-6 years compared to the Leafs the last 2-3 years. The Kessel deal is a prime example of how the Leafs could ill afford for a trade to backfire, which it has, whereas Philly has the depth to accomodate 6 1st round picks+Lupul and Sbisa for Pronger who got injured and replaced by Webber (maybe).

Holmgren has taken a very aggressive approach, and has yet to succeed. Maybe someday he will, but also maybe someday it will bite him in the ass.

He's traded away 1st round picks in 2009, 2010, 2011, 2013,2014,2015, 2016. Isn't that the kind of trading that people here are so angry about with the Leafs?
Leafs fan realists would have no problem at all if our picks and prospects were all traded... provided we were an actual competitive team... like Philly.
It's the in between nonsense that frustrates leaf fan realists. Being neither competitive, nor having an elite prospect base, after four years of futility. It's also why leaf fan realists are ok with Edmonton's rebuild.

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07-24-2012, 03:15 PM
  #75
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You forgot the part about Burke being the highest paid GM in league.
Yeah. I realized my mistake, and made sure to mention it on my very next post.
Go ahead and take a look.

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