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Extend Burke?

View Poll Results: Extend Burke?
Hell, NO! 75 30.74%
Yes 1yr. 15 6.15%
Yes 2yr 65 26.64%
Yes 3+yr 89 36.48%
Voters: 244. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
07-24-2012, 03:55 PM
  #101
T M L
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NO way! Get him out of here.

Its time to move on!

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Old
07-24-2012, 03:56 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
I admit that our defensive depth is somewhat close to where it should be. But given our highest paid GM ever, highest paid scouting department, and where we've finished the past four years, I wouldn't say it's great.

But our forward depth is pretty much a joke. It really is. And the key player in your "youth movement" quoted above is going into his 7th full time nhl season. I'm not saying he's a beaten down, lost a step veteran yet. But come on... I don't think we can really call him part of the "youth movement" anymore.
I love how you keep dismissing the current roster.

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Old
07-24-2012, 03:57 PM
  #103
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Yes. They're not the be all, end all... but I take them into consideration. Why wouldn't I? The players are actually out there with these guys.
Unlike most of the people here, I don't pick and choose stats to support. I'm a realist. It's just that the leafs have been SOOOO bad under Burke, that being realistic about them makes one appear as a negative nancy.

And I know the players voted Kessel as like the 15th best player currently in the nhl. I mean, he was 6th in points and 7th in goals. He had a great year. Stats don't lie.
So you agree, Kessel was the 16th best player in the NHL last year, and since, 2 ahead of him have retired. Cool.

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07-24-2012, 03:58 PM
  #104
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I love how you keep dismissing the current roster.
You mean the current roster that just finished 5th last?
Why on earth would I ever dismiss them?
hehe

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07-24-2012, 04:00 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by smoke meat pete View Post
So you agree, Kessel was the 16th best player in the NHL last year, and since, 2 ahead of him have retired. Cool.
As I said, players rankings aren't the be all, end all... but I do take them into consideration.

Kessel had a fantastic year. What can I say? I still think the trade was a disaster of legendary proportions.
But Kessel sure had a great year.

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07-24-2012, 04:03 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
You mean the current roster that just finished 5th last?
Why on earth would I ever dismiss them?
hehe
So you project the bust prospect pool, but use hindsight to bash the current roster. Isn't that convenient.

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07-24-2012, 04:04 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
As I said, players rankings aren't the be all, end all... but I do take them into consideration.

Kessel had a fantastic year. What can I say? I still think the trade was a disaster of legendary proportions.
But Kessel sure had a great year.
But prospect rankings are?

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07-24-2012, 04:04 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
As I said, players rankings aren't the be all, end all... but I do take them into consideration.

Kessel had a fantastic year. What can I say? I still think the trade was a disaster of legendary proportions.
But Kessel sure had a great year.
IMHO, that is the inconsistency. A 24 year old with a fantastic season, top 20 in the league, is a key piece in the youth movement of this team, just as Eberle will be at 24, and Hall will be at 24 and Seguin and so on and so on.

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07-24-2012, 04:09 PM
  #109
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Delete. Sorry.

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07-24-2012, 04:14 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
If people make excuses for his numerous mistakes, but applaud him for his (rare) successes, then they are apologists.
If people make excuses for his successes, but bombast his mistakes, then they are critics.
But if people make neither excuses nor apologies, but call him out on the magic numbers (7th, 2nd, 9th, 5th), and the lack of prospect depth from such horrid results (as supported from rankings made from consensus by nhl scouts) than they are simply realists.



If Phaneuf had a decent cap hit, then we would have won the trade. But given that he's one of the most overpaid players in the league (and voted one of the most over-rated by the very players themselves), I'd call the trade a wash. I really doubt Calgary misses him much... just like we don't really miss Stajan and the crew.



Boston overpaid to give them an extra kick in their cup run. If they were unsuccessful in their run, and gave up good assets, then they lost the trade. If they won the cup, and the assets didn't pan out, then they won the trade.
But if they win the cup, and the assets are good, then it's a wash.
Pretty simple really.
I'm always surprised when I have to spell these things out...
Lets face it, it really comes down to the scouts and Dev team now, some of these picks have to turn into steals(Gards,Colb,Biggs,Perc,Finn) and some up to their high draft slotting (Reil,Kad,JVR) or it ends up being pretty moot.

I was/am a diehard tanker , i set a goal 5 years ago when the whole frozen 5 thing started , i wanted 5 years of top 5 drafting, with 2 of those years being top 3. And some added late 1rsts and some 2nds or prospects once we sold everything off.

We came somewhat close to those goals.

We have a 2nd overall , 2- 5th overs and a 7th , add in some later 1rsts ( Gard,Colb,Perc,Bigs,Asht and some 2/3nds (Black,Finn,McK,Ross)

But we still lack 2 of the 3 hardest things to get a #1g and #1c.

Heck even our #1d would be considered in the bottom echelon of #1ds. Heck, he would be ranked #3 on some teams and #2 on many others last year.

Waiting to see how some of this plays out this year for names like Kadri ,Colb,JVR,Gard,Riems , we need some sunshine from some of these guys.

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Old
07-24-2012, 04:15 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by TeamBester View Post
So you project the bust prospect pool, but use hindsight to bash the current roster. Isn't that convenient.
Doesn't even make sense.
If a consensus of nhl scouts ranked our prospects as top 5, I'd start to get behind Burke a little. But they rank us 17th currently.
And our team just finished 5th last.

I'm just using the facts.

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07-24-2012, 04:17 PM
  #112
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But prospect rankings are?
They are not the be all end all either.
But I'd be a fool to not consider rankings based on consensus of nhl professional scouts.

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07-24-2012, 04:18 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by smoke meat pete View Post
IMHO, that is the inconsistency. A 24 year old with a fantastic season, top 20 in the league, is a key piece in the youth movement of this team, just as Eberle will be at 24, and Hall will be at 24 and Seguin and so on and so on.
If we had three other younger Kessels in the system (like edmonton has four other Eberle's) then I wouldn't be so reasonably angry.

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07-24-2012, 04:22 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Faltorvo View Post
Lets face it, it really comes down to the scouts and Dev team now, some of these picks have to turn into steals(Gards,Colb,Biggs,Perc,Finn) and some up to their high draft slotting (Reil,Kad,JVR) or it ends up being pretty moot.

I was/am a diehard tanker , i set a goal 5 years ago when the whole frozen 5 thing started , i wanted 5 years of top 5 drafting, with 2 of those years being top 3. And some added late 1rsts and some 2nds or prospects once we sold everything off.

We came somewhat close to those goals.

We have a 2nd overall , 2- 5th overs and a 7th , add in some later 1rsts ( Gard,Colb,Perc,Bigs,Asht and some 2/3nds (Black,Finn,McK,Ross)

But we still lack 2 of the 3 hardest things to get a #1g and #1c.

Heck even our #1d would be considered in the bottom echelon of #1ds. Heck, he would be ranked #3 on some teams and #2 on many others last year.

Waiting to see how some of this plays out this year for names like Kadri ,Colb,JVR,Gard,Riems , we need some sunshine from some of these guys.
But we're never going to get a 2nd overall that's actually meeting expectations in a trade.
Boston will not trade Seguin. Why would they?

When Burke grabs a 2nd overall years after the player was drafted..., after the player hasn't come close to meeting expectations, it's not exactly the same. You're not going to get those young franchise players in trades. You almost always need to draft them. (note, I am aware that there are very rare exceptions to this rule, just as there are for any rule. So no need to point them out.)

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07-24-2012, 04:27 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
Doesn't even make sense.
If a consensus of nhl scouts ranked our prospects as top 5, I'd start to get behind Burke a little. But they rank us 17th currently.
And our team just finished 5th last.

I'm just using the facts.
I'm sorry DO. I get confused easily. Can you point to what the pro scouts say about Nazim Kadri and Joe Colborne? I appreciate it.

(I think the problem is, I read the same thing you do but interpret the meaning differently. Can you explain how you feel about them?)

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07-24-2012, 04:28 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
Doesn't even make sense.
If a consensus of nhl scouts ranked our prospects as top 5, I'd start to get behind Burke a little. But they rank us 17th currently.
And our team just finished 5th last.

I'm just using the facts.
It does make sense, you use projections to bash the prospect pool, but use hindsight to bash the current roster. Why not try some consistency?

What were we ranked last year? Honest question.

Using opinions as facts? Kudos #3rdlinersalltheway

Quote:
Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
They are not the be all end all either.
But I'd be a fool to not consider rankings based on consensus of nhl professional scouts.
So its not foolish to claim they will never be more than 3rd liners?

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07-24-2012, 04:30 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
But we're never going to get a 2nd overall that's actually meeting expectations in a trade.
Boston will not trade Seguin. Why would they?

When Burke grabs a 2nd overall years after the player was drafted..., after the player hasn't come close to meeting expectations, it's not exactly the same. You're not going to get those young franchise players in trades. You almost always need to draft them. (note, I am aware that there are very rare exceptions to this rule, just as there are for any rule. So no need to point them out.)
I bet Van was glad they waited for the Sedins to develop before writing them off.

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07-24-2012, 04:39 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
I admit that our defensive depth is somewhat close to where it should be. But given our highest paid GM ever, highest paid scouting department, and where we've finished the past four years, I wouldn't say it's great.

But our forward depth is pretty much a joke. It really is. And the key player in your "youth movement" quoted above is going into his 7th full time nhl season. I'm not saying he's a beaten down, lost a step veteran yet. But come on... I don't think we can really call him part of the "youth movement" anymore.
Well, at 24 i see it this way, i'm more concerned about his ability to still be in prime age , when the rest of the work done in the last 5 years when( should/would/could) those younger guys develop as we hope they do.

Don't get me wrong here, i see the flaws in his game, i know he is a possible UFA in 2 years and i sure as hell have not forgotten the price we paid. None of these 3 things thrill me and some royally tick me off.

But for the time being it is what it is. I put him as a 1b+ first line winger and a 1a+++ 2nd line wing(almost same rating i would give Lups right now),but say if you had a Perry as your #1 and allow for proper slotting.

As for the scouting department, well thats tricky to answer, i would say, as the draft goes and free wallets, it's to early to tell.

Their calls on UFAs and their impute on how good this team would be before the Kessel trade , horrible work there.

I though he royaly screwed up in the beginning with some trades and FA sighnings.

I thought he made some nice to great recoveries in the Lups/Kaber/Dion trades, but still no UFAs worth really talking about.

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07-24-2012, 04:44 PM
  #119
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It does make sense, you use projections to bash the prospect pool, but use hindsight to bash the current roster. Why not try some consistency?

What were we ranked last year? Honest question.

Using opinions as facts? Kudos #3rdlinersalltheway



So its not foolish to claim they will never be more than 3rd liners?

Being that most prospects have never played in the NHL, I HAVE to use projections to assess their NHL value. Are you series?
And being that our current team JUST finished 5th last, I'm simply using the latest available stats to project them. Our teams barely changed.

Would you rather I somehow "magically" use hindsight to assess our prospects playing in the NHL? How would I even do that? What are you talking a out?

And I was quite clear in saying that some of our forward prospects could surprise us... But then I added that EVERY team has mediocre prospects that might surprise. So it amounts to nothing.

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07-24-2012, 04:44 PM
  #120
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I love how you keep dismissing the current roster.
This roster will be lucky as hell to get us out of a top 5/7 draft slot.

As this roster sits right now, POs? not a chance in hell, UNLESS we get a repeat of that 37 game stretch of .920 sv% from Riems.

And on that i'm not holding my breath.

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07-24-2012, 04:46 PM
  #121
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I bet Van was glad they waited for the Sedins to develop before writing them off.
I bet the Van fans were happy that Burke didn't trade away the top three picks that turned into the twins...

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07-24-2012, 04:47 PM
  #122
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We should make a position for him to manage our AHL team. That's what he seems best at.

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07-24-2012, 04:49 PM
  #123
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Doesn't even make sense.
If a consensus of nhl scouts ranked our prospects as top 5, I'd start to get behind Burke a little. But they rank us 17th currently.
And our team just finished 5th last.

I'm just using the facts.
Now now you know that 17th is bound to rise because of the said just finished 5th.

Riels and Finn should bump us up a bit.


Last edited by Faltorvo: 07-24-2012 at 05:06 PM.
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Old
07-24-2012, 04:55 PM
  #124
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If playoffs, extend 3+. If not, 1 more year.
Exactly what I was thinking.

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07-24-2012, 04:59 PM
  #125
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I am expecting one more lossing year only. If buy the end of the year after we aren't in the playoffs then I will be calling for his head.

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