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Worst player to lead an nhl team in scoring?

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Old
07-24-2012, 11:51 AM
  #26
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Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
Norm MacIver was no Gretzky
I was going to mention Norm Maciver's career year as the Senators' only big offensive threat in their disastrous inaugural season.

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07-24-2012, 12:00 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by the edler View Post
i'm talking about points, cheechoo wasn't close to lead the sharks in points

edit, oh he did, 93 points to thorntons 92
I don't think that really counts. Thornton truly led the team in points being that he finished the year with the team and had way more points.

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Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
Norm MacIver was no Gretzky
No he wasn't, nor was Tarnstrom. But let's give some credit for doing this as a defenseman.

Garnet "Ace" Bailey (RIP) might qualify, leading the 1975 Caps in points with 58 (tied with Tommy Williams). He's right up there with Daigle.

As Hobnobs said, Terry Yake and Pat Falloon deserve mention too. Tommy Williams is about 300% better than those two, he doesn't belong here.

So, who's the worst? Bailey, Daigle, Falloon, or Yake?

Daigle is no more one-dimensional than Falloon, and has the most games, adjusted points, and adjusted points per game of this group, so I'd eliminate him.

Falloon was the next-most prolific scorer and lasted the next-longest. Being as lazy and one-dimensional as he was, is he worse than the relatively industrious Bailey or Yake? Tough one.

Re: Bailey and Yake, I guess Yake is worse considering Bailey lasted in the NHL 40% longer.

So Yake vs. Falloon it is. Pick your poison.

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07-24-2012, 12:00 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Johnny Engine View Post
Belanger is an excellent example. His career high in games played in a season not for a recent expansion team is 19, and the Panthers dumped him for a 3rd round pick at the deadline once they put together a playoff team in 1996. If you're getting dumped for a pick at the deadline by a playoff team, that's 1 microstep above getting waived.
Yes, and Vancouver let him go after trading a 3rd rounder for him. Yet four more teams signed him after that, hoping he'd recapture the magic of that 29 point season! Well, his career high was 50, but still...

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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
No he wasn't, nor was Tarnstrom. But let's give some credit for doing this as a defenseman.
I know MacIver was a D-man... and not a good one either. Sorry, I'm still bitter the Pens traded Straka for him. Just shows how bad the Pens D was and the sort of horrible trades Patrick made after the Cups.

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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
So Yake vs. Falloon it is. Pick your poison.
No love for my boy Jesse?


Last edited by Czech Your Math: 07-24-2012 at 12:06 PM.
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07-24-2012, 12:13 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
Yes, and Vancouver let him go after trading a 3rd rounder for him. Yet four more teams signed him after that, hoping he'd recapture the magic of that 29 point season! Well, his career high was 50, but still...



I know MacIver was a D-man... and not a good one either. Sorry, I'm still bitter the Pens traded Straka for him. Just shows how bad the Pens D was and the sort of horrible trades Patrick made after the Cups.

No love for my boy Jesse?
Norm McIver was alot better than Yake and Falloon.

Jesse Belanger? My guess is that he was an ego or a cancer because he had the skill. In '96 he scored 17 goals spending alot of time on their 4th line.

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07-24-2012, 12:14 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
No love for my boy Jesse?
Yake and Falloon were way better than Belanger, in that they both cracked the roster of an established NHL team full time. Belanger did that as many times as I have.

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07-24-2012, 12:21 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by SealsFan View Post
You could go with either of the Seals who tied for team scoring lead in 74-75 with a mere 45 points. Larry Patey's 25 goals were his highest total in 10 years in the NHL and he topped 45 points only one other time with 50 with St. Louis.

Stan Weir had 51 points the following year with Toronto then bounced around until he wound up with Edmonton in 79-80 where he had an anomalous 33 goal, 33 assist season but tailed off dramatically after that and spent a few seasons in the minors.
What about their 1st season star, Gerry Ehman?

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07-24-2012, 12:26 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
Norm McIver was alot better than Yake and Falloon.
When you play 125 games by your 27th birthday, you know you're a legend.

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07-24-2012, 12:34 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I don't think that really counts. Thornton truly led the team in points being that he finished the year with the team and had way more points.



No he wasn't, nor was Tarnstrom. But let's give some credit for doing this as a defenseman.

Garnet "Ace" Bailey (RIP) might qualify, leading the 1975 Caps in points with 58 (tied with Tommy Williams). He's right up there with Daigle.

As Hobnobs said, Terry Yake and Pat Falloon deserve mention too. Tommy Williams is about 300% better than those two, he doesn't belong here.

So, who's the worst? Bailey, Daigle, Falloon, or Yake?

Daigle is no more one-dimensional than Falloon, and has the most games, adjusted points, and adjusted points per game of this group, so I'd eliminate him.

Falloon was the next-most prolific scorer and lasted the next-longest. Being as lazy and one-dimensional as he was, is he worse than the relatively industrious Bailey or Yake? Tough one.

Re: Bailey and Yake, I guess Yake is worse considering Bailey lasted in the NHL 40% longer.

So Yake vs. Falloon it is. Pick your poison.
3 times better? By using what metric?

Either you think that Falloon and Yake were bums, both scored very impressive in Junior and Yake in the AHL or that Williams was a superstar that no one else noticed.

Both Falloon and Yake would ahve fared much better in the 70's or 80's than the clutch and grab era as well IMO.

Maybe it's me but the thread is kind of weird, the worst leading scorer on any NHL team over time had to be pretty decent at least in terms of actual scoring.

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07-24-2012, 12:45 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
Norm MacIver was no Gretzky
Thanks for clearing that up for us.

That being said how bad was he really?

He was a small offensive Dman in a time when teams where leaning towards size and preventing goals 1st instead of the 70's or 80's that were more free flowing.

He was good enough to represent Canada at the world championships as well.

My money is on one of the expansion guys in 68 or early 70's with rapid expansion and the WHA.

We could go oldschool and throw in Gerry Lowrey from the 4-36-4 Philly quackers in 31 who was out of the NHL 2 years later at age 26 but still played hockey till he was 35


Last edited by Hardyvan123: 07-24-2012 at 12:51 PM.
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07-24-2012, 12:46 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
When you play 125 games by your 27th birthday, you know you're a legend.
He played college hockey until he was 21. He was stuck in the AHL for some time, yes. Doesn't mean you are bad once you finally have a break through. Or do you think Rafalski and Thomas are bad players? Knuble is another example of a player who is better than Yake and Falloon but didnt deliver until his 30th birthday. Johan Franzen had played 80 games by his 27th birthday.

You were saying?

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07-24-2012, 12:46 PM
  #36
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Jesse Belanger

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Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
Norm McIver was alot better than Yake and Falloon.

Jesse Belanger? My guess is that he was an ego or a cancer because he had the skill. In '96 he scored 17 goals spending alot of time on their 4th line.
Was never drafted, FA even into the QMJHL. For a RHS center, not solid defensively or on faceoffs. NHL/AHL tweener, viable 4th liner if linemates were grinders.

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07-24-2012, 12:48 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Was never drafted, FA even into the QMJHL. For a RHS center, not solid defensively or on faceoffs. NHL/AHL tweener, viable 4th liner if linemates were grinders.
He was converted to wing in Florida tho?

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07-24-2012, 12:52 PM
  #38
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Yes

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He was converted to wing in Florida tho?
Making my point about his weaknesses at center. He did not provide the grind element as a winger.

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07-24-2012, 12:55 PM
  #39
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Maybe the last guy expected to do it: Gerry Ehman

A rather strange career. Played 1 NHL game for Boston in '58 when he turned 25. Scored 26 points in 44 games in '59 for Toronto, then led the Leafs in playoff scoring with 13 points in 12 games (6 goals tied with Mahovlich). Scored 28 points in 69 games in '60, then sent down to Rochester after 14 games in '61. He stayed there until '64 when he had 2 points in 4 games for Toronto, before having one point (a goal) in 9 games during Toronto's Cup run. Sent back to Rochester, where he remained until expansion. He led the Oakland Seals with 44 points in 73 games in '68 and played 3 more years for them.

One can imagine him turning 31, having been in the AHL for 3+ years and figuring "this is where my hockey career will end." Ends up with a Cup and leading his team in scoring one year, in addition to leading a Cup finalist in playoff goals/points. Not bad for a guy whose NHL career would have been 59 points in 132 games if not for expansion.

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07-24-2012, 12:56 PM
  #40
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FYI before both our times but Tommy Williams was on the first line of an original six team-albeit the Bruins of the early 60s..........
sure at least he had plenty of experience being a 1st line guy for the worst team in the league when he got to Washington.

Look I peg him as being better than Yake or Fallooon, in the strict History of hockey sticky kind of way, but the 300% thing was exaggerating slightly don't you think?

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07-24-2012, 01:02 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
You were saying?
I'm not seriously saying he was the worst. Still, when a team is desperate for defensemen, trades for you and the next year turns around and trades you for Neil Wilkinson... well, you are NOT the next Bobby Orr.

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07-24-2012, 01:04 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
Maybe the last guy expected to do it: Gerry Ehman

A rather strange career. Played 1 NHL game for Boston in '58 when he turned 25. Scored 26 points in 44 games in '59 for Toronto, then led the Leafs in playoff scoring with 13 points in 12 games (6 goals tied with Mahovlich). Scored 28 points in 69 games in '60, then sent down to Rochester after 14 games in '61. He stayed there until '64 when he had 2 points in 4 games for Toronto, before having one point (a goal) in 9 games during Toronto's Cup run. Sent back to Rochester, where he remained until expansion. He led the Oakland Seals with 44 points in 73 games in '68 and played 3 more years for them.

One can imagine him turning 31, having been in the AHL for 3+ years and figuring "this is where my hockey career will end." Ends up with a Cup and leading his team in scoring one year, in addition to leading a Cup finalist in playoff goals/points. Not bad for a guy whose NHL career would have been 59 points in 132 games if not for expansion.
I noticed that too, really weird career and he actually led those Leafs in playoff scoring that year but all the good old Leaf boys will gloss over that and exclaim the virtues of the other 10 HHOF caliber guys on that team. (George Armstrong, dick duff and Bob Pulford being the prime examples)

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07-24-2012, 01:09 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by SealsFan View Post
You could go with either of the Seals who tied for team scoring lead in 74-75 with a mere 45 points. Larry Patey's 25 goals were his highest total in 10 years in the NHL and he topped 45 points only one other time with 50 with St. Louis.

Stan Weir had 51 points the following year with Toronto then bounced around until he wound up with Edmonton in 79-80 where he had an anomalous 33 goal, 33 assist season but tailed off dramatically after that and spent a few seasons in the minors.
Larry Patey was a selke-caliber forward so he is definitely out of the running here.

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Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
I know MacIver was a D-man... and not a good one either. Sorry, I'm still bitter the Pens traded Straka for him. Just shows how bad the Pens D was and the sort of horrible trades Patrick made after the Cups.
No, he wasn’t very good. But I think with more than enough forwards who qualify, defensemen should pretty much be excluded from this thread as they weren’t even expected to lead the team.

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No love for my boy Jesse?
Whoops… I looked at his stat line, chose his highest point total (1994), saw that he didn’t lead the team that year, and decided he had just been included by mistake. I did not think about the lockout year. I see he did in fact tie for the team lead. He’s definitely the worst guy here, worse than my four “contenders”.

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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
What about their 1st season star, Gerry Ehman?
I’d take him over any of my four “contenders”.

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3 times better? By using what metric?
By a made up one. Do you think I actually based that on anything concrete?

Quote:
Either you think that Falloon and Yake were bums, both scored very impressive in Junior and Yake in the AHL or that William was a superstar that no one else noticed.
Williams has more GP, adjusted points, and a better adjusted PPG (far more if you include WHA) than Daigle, whose stats were the best of my four contenders. He also had seasons of 67 and 50 points in the NHL, as well as 43 before expansion (24th in the NHL). He had a 58-point WHA season, lasted in the NHL to age 35 and had a strong Olympics at age 19 for USA. He also had 27 playoff points in 29 NHL/WHA games. Bailey’s 6 points in 17 games is the best ratio among the first four I discussed (they have 34 points in 127 combined games).

Both Falloon and Yake would ahve fared much better in the 70's or 80's than the clutch and grab era as well IMO.

Quote:
Maybe it's me but the thread is kind of weird, the worst leading scorer on any NHL team over time had to be pretty decent at least in terms of actual scoring.
Yes, of course. Just like “worst 500 goal scorer”, “worst hall of famer”, and “worst hart winner” threads.

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Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
He played college hockey until he was 21. He was stuck in the AHL for some time, yes. Doesn't mean you are bad once you finally have a break through. Or do you think Rafalski and Thomas are bad players? Knuble is another example of a player who is better than Yake and Falloon but didnt deliver until his 30th birthday. Johan Franzen had played 80 games by his 27th birthday.

You were saying?
You’re right that he was decent. Just don’t be tempted to pick him in the MLD anytime soon. He should be about 100th on your list for defensemen right now

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07-24-2012, 01:10 PM
  #44
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Nelson Pyatt

I’m going with Nelson Pyatt.

Pyatt led the horrible 1975-76 Caps with 49 points and was a –56, the second worst plus-minus of the season (and 16th-worst ever).

He only played two more full seasons with the Colorado Rockies before eventually getting bounced down to the minors and was out of the league entirely by the age of 26. Pyatt played fewer NHL games than Norm MacIver or Dick Tarnstrom or Terry Yake or Pat Falloon or anyone else who's been mentioned so far, and in an era where the competition for roster spots was probably lower.

(And yes, he’s also the father of Taylor and Tom Pyatt.)

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07-24-2012, 01:12 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
I'm not seriously saying he was the worst. Still, when a team is desperate for defensemen, trades for you and the next year turns around and trades you for Neil Wilkinson... well, you are NOT the next Bobby Orr.
Neither is Franzen, we are talking about the worst player leading his team in scoring so I dont see your point.

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07-24-2012, 01:12 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Dissonance View Post
I’m going with Nelson Pyatt.

Pyatt led the horrible 1975-76 Caps with 49 points and was a –56, the second worst plus-minus of the season (and 16th-worst ever).

He only played two more full seasons with the Colorado Rockies before eventually getting bounced down to the minors and was out of the league entirely. Pyatt played fewer NHL games than Norm MacIver or Dick Tarnstrom or Terry Yake or Pat Falloon or anyone else who's been mentioned so far, and in an era where it was easier for marginal players to win a roster spot.

(And yes, he’s also the father of Taylor and Tom Pyatt.)
If he counts as the 1976 leader instead of Garnet Bailey (who had 58 points and finished the season with the Caps), then he is a slightly better answer than Jesse Belanger, who appears to be the frontrunner right now.

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07-24-2012, 01:13 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
You’re right that he was decent. Just don’t be tempted to pick him in the MLD anytime soon. He should be about 100th on your list for defensemen right now
Nah, Im saving that gem for the AAA

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07-24-2012, 01:14 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
If he counts as the 1976 leader instead of Garnet Bailey (who had 58 points and finished the season with the Caps), then he is a slightly better answer than Jesse Belanger, who appears to be the frontrunner right now.
Bailey led the season before (1974-75), depending on how you count it. But Pyatt was the clear 1975-76 leader, I think.

Didn't see Belanger. That's a pretty close call between the two.

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07-24-2012, 01:20 PM
  #49
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Gerry Ehman

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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
I noticed that too, really weird career and he actually led those Leafs in playoff scoring that year but all the good old Leaf boys will gloss over that and exclaim the virtues of the other 10 HHOF caliber guys on that team. (George Armstrong, dick duff and Bob Pulford being the prime examples)
1959 playoffs was on a line with Billy Harris and Frank Mahovlich enjoying PP time as a result.

Basic problem was that his skating limited him to a trailer role on lines in the O6 era. Leaf hockey from that era did not include a trailer type winger.


Last edited by Canadiens1958: 07-24-2012 at 01:21 PM. Reason: typo
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07-24-2012, 01:20 PM
  #50
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Kris Versteeg is up there, he isn't bad, just hes overrated, hes good if hes with good players, he was with Fleishmann who is very good and Weiss, in Chicago he was with Toews and Kane, but if he was with Sid/Geno, he'd get like 90 points

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