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Worst player to lead an nhl team in scoring?

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07-25-2012, 06:52 AM
  #76
Psycho Papa Joe
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Originally Posted by MadLuke View Post
From 1998 to 2001 we had 3 habs season with the highest scorer under 50 points (this is dead puck and lack of offensive talent, and must of all Koivu always hurt).

98-99: reechi (47 points)
99-00: rucinsky (49)
00-01: Petrov (47)

Perreault had a really good season the year after, and Donald Audette was a good first liner when playing with the Habs.
Koivu is considered the point leader in 2001, getting 47 in 54 games. Petrov got the same number of points, but based on standing, he is considered to have finished 2nd having played 80 games.

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07-25-2012, 08:20 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Patmac40 View Post
Dick Tarnstrom on the 2003-2004 Pens. 52 points that year.
That should be an indictment of the forwards, not Tarnstrom. I think most fans would be happy with a defenseman who puts up 52 points.

Tarnstrom was really nice on the powerplay. He has 12 PPGs that year. That's the same number the reigning Rocket Richard trophy winner had last season.

The Pens had some really crappy teams around that time. But Tarnstrom wasn't one of the reasons why.

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07-25-2012, 09:59 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Smelling Salt View Post
Derek Plante leading Buffalo in 96-97...
My first thought...

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Old
07-25-2012, 11:13 AM
  #79
seventieslord
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So it's down to Jesse Belanger, Ron Sedlbauer, Bobby Leiter, Larry Wilson, Doug Shedden, Nelson Pyatt, Oleg Petrov, Josef Vasicek and Derek Plante. (I think the recently mentioned Arnason, Daigle, Falloon, Calder, Yake, Rucinsky, Perreault, Pellerin, Ysebaert, McKechnie, and Broten all did enough to pull them out of that lower class, does anyone disagree?)

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07-25-2012, 11:16 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
I understand that, but neither even lasted a full season with the Pens. It was testament to just how bad the Pens' defense was, that they would trade a fast, skilled 22 y/o for a 31 y/o mediocre d-man and a checking forward that retired after the following season.

Luckily, they got Straka back in '97-8, but they could have really used him in '96, esp. after Francis was injured. He scored a tie-breaking goal against them halfway through the 3rd period of game 6 in the ECF. That trade alone may have cost them a trip to the SCF.
Straka was a nobody. He started to struggle and Pens wanted veterans for the playoffs. It was a simple choice. Trade an offensive young guy for a two-way player and a secondary puck carrying d-man. What you fail to mention is that Murphy was Pens only offensive D-man and they wanted another one to help their struggling PP.

Straka went to Ottawa/Florida/Islanders before actually accomplishing anything in the NHL. For the Pens who got him back for free.

The trade didnt cost them anything.

Btw funny how you argue it was a bad because pens flipped MacIver (making him a bad player, what?) and Murray signed with the Avs. Let me ask you how well did Straka do? He was traded again one year later to the Islanders who two months later trashed him on waivers.

My guess is that Patrick would do that trade over and over again. Specailly when knowing that he would get Straka back for nothing just as he is about to perform and hit his prime.

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07-25-2012, 11:19 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
So it's down to Jesse Belanger, Ron Sedlbauer, Bobby Leiter, Larry Wilson, Doug Shedden, Nelson Pyatt, Oleg Petrov, Josef Vasicek and Derek Plante. (I think the recently mentioned Arnason, Daigle, Falloon, Calder, Yake, Rucinsky, Perreault, Pellerin, Ysebaert, McKechnie, and Broten all did enough to pull them out of that lower class, does anyone disagree?)
I think they did, but Arnason was so frustrating to watch, he's the only player alongside May in Avs history who I really couldn't stand. Terrible waste of talent.

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07-25-2012, 11:38 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
So it's down to Jesse Belanger, Ron Sedlbauer, Bobby Leiter, Larry Wilson, Doug Shedden, Nelson Pyatt, Oleg Petrov, Josef Vasicek and Derek Plante. (I think the recently mentioned Arnason, Daigle, Falloon, Calder, Yake, Rucinsky, Perreault, Pellerin, Ysebaert, McKechnie, and Broten all did enough to pull them out of that lower class, does anyone disagree?)
If Yake is out of the competition then so is Plante, Petrov and Vasicek.

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07-25-2012, 12:26 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
If Yake is out of the competition then so is Plante, Petrov and Vasicek.
Well, Yake is out because Jesse Belanger is definitely worse than him.

considering Plante scored 50 points three times, he's definitely out too. I agree there, he was a decent second line caliber scorer for a few years.

Sell me on Petrov and Vasicek. Are they conclusively better than Yake?

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Old
07-25-2012, 12:36 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by KingJet View Post
Kris Versteeg is up there, he isn't bad, just hes overrated, hes good if hes with good players, he was with Fleishmann who is very good and Weiss, in Chicago he was with Toews and Kane, but if he was with Sid/Geno, he'd get like 90 points
Versteeg rarely played on the Toews/Kane line. Quennville likes to switch up the lines a lot when things aren't going well in a game (especially back then when he had so many options), so Versteeg did see some time with them on occasion, but never a regular stint. He was on the 2nd PP unit too, so he didn't see time with them there either.

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Old
07-25-2012, 01:03 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
Straka was a nobody. He started to struggle and Pens wanted veterans for the playoffs.
Straka was a nobody? Really? I sure noticed him. He had serious wheels when he was younger and skill to boot.

So a 1st round draft pick, whose first full season at age 21 included:

30 goals (50th), 64 points (75th), 28 ES goals (13th), 23.1% shooting% (2nd to Cam Neely) and +24 (30th)...

...this is the type of player that just falls off the turnip truck?

He starts to struggle, so it's smart to trade him for a couple of true "nobodies" (at that point in their careers)?

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Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
It was a simple choice. Trade an offensive young guy for a two-way player and a secondary puck carrying d-man. What you fail to mention is that Murphy was Pens only offensive D-man and they wanted another one to help their struggling PP.
I don't know whether it was a simple choice, but it doesn't seem the best one. They had another struggling first round pick who was struggling at the time (15 points in 85 career games), I guess they should have traded that nobody too? They did trade Markus Naslund the following season. Oh Craig Patrick, what cunning and patience!

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Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
Straka went to Ottawa/Florida/Islanders before actually accomplishing anything in the NHL. For the Pens who got him back for free.
Wait... so besides his '94 season, which I already detailed, scoring an important goal in the ECF and going to the SCF (both at age 23) isn't accomplishing anything?

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Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
The trade didnt cost them anything.
It cost them depth in '96 that ended up coming back to bite them in the ECF when Francis was injured. It just seems stupid to trade a promising a 22 y/o first round pick who's already had a very good season.

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Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
Btw funny how you argue it was a bad because pens flipped MacIver (making him a bad player, what?) and Murray signed with the Avs. Let me ask you how well did Straka do? He was traded again one year later to the Islanders who two months later trashed him on waivers.
I don't know why those teams were flipping so many players then, whether it was financial or transitioning to more defensive hockey. It's not as if the Panthers and Islanders became powerhouses after that. Straka struggled in the mid-90s, but that doesn't make it a wise trade IMO.

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Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
My guess is that Patrick would do that trade over and over again. Specailly when knowing that he would get Straka back for nothing just as he is about to perform and hit his prime.
How could he know that he could get Straka back for nothing? Of course Patrick would probably do it over again... he traded away Naslund a year later and now he's consulting for Columbus. He made some very good moves previously, but starting in the mid-90s his trades and drafting were not so good.

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07-25-2012, 01:10 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Sell me on Petrov and Vasicek. Are they conclusively better than Yake?
Vasicek's not a bad player at all. He's been playing in the KHL the last few years and doing well. He was a 4th round pick and played for Czechs at WJC, the last Olympics and multiple WCs (including gold in '05 when it was best on best). He missed most of '06 with a knee injury, after leading the Canes in points in '04, but still managed to play 8 playoff games for a Cup-winning team (during the season he was injured). He doesn't at all belong with the likes of Jesse Belanger.

The other thing to note is who he beat in '04 to lead the team: Cole, Brind'amour, O'Neill, Eric Staal, Francis and Vrbata. I think we forget how tough it was to score points back in 2004, so 45 seems sorta paltry, but it wasn't quite as bad as it might seem at first glance.


Last edited by Czech Your Math: 07-25-2012 at 01:34 PM.
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Old
07-25-2012, 01:48 PM
  #87
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I think merely cracking the 93-94 Habs for 55 games disqualifies Petrov.

Out of the guys who played in the 90s or later, I don't think the people naming guys like Vasicek and Petrov are really appreciating that Jesse Belanger didn't make a single non-expansion team in his career. Get an equivalent player to Belanger to start his career in a period team stability, say in 2006, or 1983, he likely doesn't become a regular NHL player in any season, ever.

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Old
07-25-2012, 02:19 PM
  #88
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I don't think the people naming guys like Vasicek and Petrov are really appreciating that Jesse Belanger didn't make a single non-expansion team in his career. Get an equivalent player to Belanger to start his career in a period team stability, say in 2006, or 1983, he likely doesn't become a regular NHL player in any season, ever.
Agreed and he probably deserves a bit of an asterisk. It was a shortened season and I doubt he even leads that team in points in a full season, although it's possible.

When I first saw the question, my instinct was that it would be a player during the period between O6 expansion and the WHA merger. It's likely between one of those players and Belanger.

Sedlbauer: Scored 40 goals in the late 70s, which were higher quality than the mid-70s, good enough for 10th in the league. That should disqualify him right there.

Larry Wilson: He was 4th in assists in a post-WWII O6 season. He also played forever in the minors after that, so I'd eliminate him as well.

Shedden: Scored over 30 goals twice after the WHA merger. That's probably enough to disqualify him.

Bobby Leiter: He played most (but not all, was also in minors) of two O6 seasons for the last place team. Despite being at peak age at time of expansion, he didn't actually get back to the NHL for more than 1 game until the 5th post-O6 season when NHL had expanded further, and that was for Atlanta.

I'd say it's between Leiter, Yake and Belanger.

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07-25-2012, 02:20 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post

Sell me on Petrov and Vasicek. Are they conclusively better than Yake?
Petrov made the All-Rookie team in 93/94, has more adjusted points than Yake (10 more points in 19 less games) and represented Russia in the World Championships in three straight years 98-00. Not a sterling career by any means, but slightly above Yake IMO.

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07-25-2012, 02:43 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by JaymzB View Post
Petrov made the All-Rookie team in 93/94, has more adjusted points than Yake (10 more points in 19 less games) and represented Russia in the World Championships in three straight years 98-00. Not a sterling career by any means, but slightly above Yake IMO.
that's a bit of a weak case though, since he was smaller and softer, I wouldn't be too concerned about 10 more adjusted points.

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07-25-2012, 02:59 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Well, Yake is out because Jesse Belanger is definitely worse than him.

considering Plante scored 50 points three times, he's definitely out too. I agree there, he was a decent second line caliber scorer for a few years.

Sell me on Petrov and Vasicek. Are they conclusively better than Yake?
Vasicek is better and Petrov is atleast equally good. Vasicek is a top player in the KHL while Yake wasnt in the DEL. Same thing with Petrov really. Top player in Swizz-A league and Yake was above average in Swizz-B!

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07-25-2012, 03:13 PM
  #92
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Petrov actually suited up for a playoff game for a Cup-winning team, before he was officially a rookie, and was playing in the KHL playoffs at age 40.

Belanger gets traded at age 26 and can't get more than 16 games with each of 4 NHL teams and so is forced to play in the minors, Germany and the Swiss B league during and after his prime.

It's a different situation for a player like Vasicek or Petrov, where they may have been able to continue their NHL career a while longer (I think Vasicek could have... he was a +1 on the '08 Isles lol), but also may have incentive ($, closer to home, better suited to int'l ice, etc.) to play in the KHL or another foreign league.

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07-25-2012, 03:27 PM
  #93
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Belanger probably takes this in a slam dunk, then.

but you're right, it is an asterisk. Does he lead the team if the season is 75% longer like it was supposed to be? Highly doubtful.

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07-25-2012, 04:08 PM
  #94
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Belanger probably takes this in a slam dunk, then.

but you're right, it is an asterisk. Does he lead the team if the season is 75% longer like it was supposed to be? Highly doubtful.
I doubt he does. He tied Barnes, who missed 7 games, but was also tailing off at the end. However, Mellanby was only 4 points behind and after a 11 game scoreless stretch (playing through injury?), had 7 points in his last 8 games. I'm guessing Mellanby leads the team in a full season.

What about Leiter vs. Yake for the full-season "honors"?

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07-25-2012, 04:30 PM
  #95
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I doubt he does. He tied Barnes, who missed 7 games, but was also tailing off at the end. However, Mellanby was only 4 points behind and after a 11 game scoreless stretch (playing through injury?), had 7 points in his last 8 games. I'm guessing Mellanby leads the team in a full season.

What about Leiter vs. Yake for the full-season "honors"?
Neither. Nelson pyatt.

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07-25-2012, 04:35 PM
  #96
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Neither. Nelson pyatt.
Yeah, it's pretty bad when you lead the '76 Caps in scoring at age 22... and they let you go as a FA. He might actually give Belanger some competition.

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07-25-2012, 04:47 PM
  #97
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07-25-2012, 04:53 PM
  #98
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Cheechoooo ainec
someone didn't read the thread.

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07-25-2012, 05:01 PM
  #99
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hfboards threads are much less stressful to read if you interpret the acronym "ainec" as "and I never even checked".

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07-25-2012, 10:01 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
Sedlbauer: Scored 40 goals in the late 70s, which were higher quality than the mid-70s, good enough for 10th in the league. That should disqualify him right there.
With 16 assists and a -34... and never scored over 20 goals again. His 40 goals were more of a credit to Thomas Gradin than him.

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