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Redemption? Players who need to bounce back.

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Old
07-25-2012, 03:42 PM
  #126
Dubi Doo
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vanek wasn't mentally weak or a ***** two years ago. He helped this team out a ton when they needed him most. In 08-09 he did, too. Until he got injured before the boston series.

I think injuries is catching upto him. We'll see how this year goes, but last offseason people wanted to give him the c. He was a difference maker, and that's what you want from a hockey player. Whether it's on the score sheet or racking up majors.

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07-25-2012, 03:43 PM
  #127
Jame
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Originally Posted by Der Jaeger View Post
If me, you, and Jame are walking down the street, and we see a woman being assaulted by a guy, is it reasonable for you both to look at me and say "you're in the Army, you go stop it" and pass responsibility to me?

Or should all three of us go kick his ass?

Gaustad AND Vanek AND Myers AND Sekera AND Pominville should have been clawing there way to get at Lucic. They are all equally guilty in my mind.
yea, even though im a big puss, i sure wouldn't stand there in front of my friends and take the "it's not my responsibility route". Doesn't mean I have to go stepping out of character every 6 hours... but in THAT scenario... i definitely should.

in HiddenInLight's response, there is also a 10 yr old girl walking with us (for reasons unknown)... so you know, it would be stupid to expect a 10 yr old to fight...

A hockey team is full of grown men... im not sure why an analogy including children makes any sense

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07-25-2012, 03:44 PM
  #128
Beerz
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
In that scenario?

Yes... there is only one way to respond.

By the time Pommer and Goose and even Myers got there... there wasn't much that could be done.

Vanek had the opportunity to do something and decided that bumping shoulders was enough

Plenty could have been done. Plenty could have been done during the remainer of the game.

Nothing was done...by ANY Sabre.

End of story. No spin. No twisting. No subjective opinion. Fact.

Now I'm really bored with this argument and would prefer dinner and

a beer.

Peace.

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Old
07-25-2012, 03:47 PM
  #129
Jame
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Originally Posted by Beerz View Post
Plenty could have been done. Plenty could have been done during the remainer of the game.

Nothing was done...by ANY Sabre.

End of story. No spin. No twisting. No subjective opinion. Fact.

Now I'm really bored with this argument and would prefer dinner and

a beer.

Peace.
well sure... and if we keep looking at it holistically, we don't need to address any individuals who might contribute MORE to the problem.

it's not the "end of the story" if you want to do something about it.

i udnerstand those who prefer to just forget.

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07-25-2012, 03:48 PM
  #130
HiddenInLight
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
I thought we were talking about the NHL...

At what point was "running the score up" on the Stanley Cup Champs a logical response to them annihilating your franchise player?

You can choose to be physical... you can't choose to run up the score.
They did it to Boston later in the season winning 6-0 (02/08/12), there is no reason why they couldn't do it then.

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07-25-2012, 03:49 PM
  #131
Der Jaeger
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
yea, even though im a big puss, i sure wouldn't stand there in front of my friends and take the "it's not my responsibility route". Doesn't mean I have to go stepping out of character every 6 hours... but in THAT scenario... i definitely should.

in HiddenInLight's response, there is also a 10 yr old girl walking with us (for reasons unknown)... so you know, it would be stupid to expect a 10 yr old to fight...

A hockey team is full of grown men... im not sure why an analogy including children makes any sense
I think the issue is confusion of application of expected actions under normal situations, and novel situations. In normal life, I don't fight anyone. It's my expected action. If someone punched my wife, I'm throwing down.

Same with hockey players that aren't fighters. Under that extremely novel situation, their actions shouldn't be normal.

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07-25-2012, 03:52 PM
  #132
HiddenInLight
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Originally Posted by Der Jaeger View Post
I think the issue is confusion of application of expected actions under normal situations, and novel situations. In normal life, I don't fight anyone. It's my expected action. If someone punched my wife, I'm throwing down.

Same with hockey players that aren't fighters. Under that extremely novel situation, their actions shouldn't be normal.
Yes, but if somebody hit's your wife and there is an on duty Police Officer right there, your not going to start a fight, your going to let said police officer handle it, as to not make the situation any worse. In this scenario Gaustad and Sekera are the Police officers.

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07-25-2012, 03:52 PM
  #133
Jame
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Originally Posted by Der Jaeger View Post
I think the issue is confusion of application of expected actions under normal situations, and novel situations. In normal life, I don't fight anyone. It's my expected action. If someone punched my wife, I'm throwing down.

Same with hockey players that aren't fighters. Under that extremely novel situation, their actions shouldn't be normal.
I completely agree. And frankly don't understand why the concept is so foreign to some.

Stop articulating it so simplistically... it makes me look stooopid.

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07-25-2012, 03:54 PM
  #134
HiddenInLight
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
I completely agree. And frankly don't understand why the concept is so foreign to some.

Stop articulating it so simplistically... it makes me look stooopid.
You don't need other people to do that for you, even just based on your arguments in this thread.....but keep chugging along on that agenda of yours Jame, your bound to be right about SOMETHING EVENTUALLY.

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07-25-2012, 03:54 PM
  #135
Jame
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Originally Posted by HiddenInLight View Post
Yes, but if somebody hit's your wife and there is an on duty Police Officer right there, your not going to start a fight, your going to let said police officer handle it, as to not make the situation any worse. In this scenario Gaustad and Sekera are the Police officers.
you're not married

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07-25-2012, 03:55 PM
  #136
Jame
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Originally Posted by HiddenInLight View Post
You don't need other people to do that for you, even just based on your arguments in this thread.....but keep chugging along on that agenda of yours Jame, your bound to be right about SOMETHING EVENTUALLY.
there's nothing to be right about here, ya big goof

There's just a preference in character.

You'd let the police take care of the guy who punched your wife in the face right in front of you

I'd go to jail

we are different people, we expect different things from this team

You can call me stupid. But Im not the ***** who doesn't react to his wife getting punched in the face.

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07-25-2012, 03:57 PM
  #137
HiddenInLight
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
you're not married
But I HAVE Been in the same relationship for 6 years....close enough.

Either way, the ONLY way I would have expected Vanek to fight, was if he was on the ice with the following:

Leino
Ennis
Gragninny
Pommer

Then yes, might have been reasonable to expect something of him then. But with Sekera and Gaustad on the ice, the idea is laughable.

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07-25-2012, 03:57 PM
  #138
La Cosa Nostra
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Originally Posted by HiddenInLight View Post
Because Vanek would have helped the team so much with a concussion, or any other injury caused in the fight. Or in the box for 5 minutes. Don't worry we all know you are making senseless arguments to push your new anti-vanek agenda. You wont ever be happy unless you are pointlessly hating on a player on our team. Connolly, Roy, and now Vanek. :
What do you expect from someone who thinks Matt Ellis is better for the Sabres then Vanek?

Gotta love the objectiveness you have on Vanek Jame, when I remember your exact words on Vanek were Vanek is a d***** bag. Even though Vanek takes more punishment and hits then ANY Sabre on the team. Vanek has put more work in to make it in the NHL then anyone else on the roster. He was a 14 year old kid when he leaves his country, comes to America, learns English and plied his craft in the USHL and the NCAA before being a top 5 pick in the best NHL draft of all-time.

Vanek is far too under appreciated here. He IS a hard worker and he is dedicated to becoming better. It's Ruffs fault for lying to him and the fans telling us that Vanek would be getting quote on quote the "premier minutes". He puts up 2 shg in back to back games and then never gets another chance again. Vanek does have the talent to be a true franchise player, he just needs the chance. In the limited minutes he does get, he does more in it then anyone else on the team.

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Old
07-25-2012, 03:59 PM
  #139
Jame
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Originally Posted by Layne Staley View Post
What do you expect from someone who thinks Matt Ellis is better for the Sabres then Vanek?
Oh Freddie... it wouldn't be the same without you

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07-25-2012, 04:01 PM
  #140
Jame
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Vanek not reacting to Miller getting obliterated even though it was right in front of him ,is ok because Goose was nearby.... just like HiddenInLight not reacting to his wife getting assaulted because there was a cop nearby.

That sums it all up folks.

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07-25-2012, 04:03 PM
  #141
HiddenInLight
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
Vanek not reacting to Miller getting obliterated even though it was right in front of him ,is ok because Goose was nearby.... just like HiddenInLight not reacting to his wife getting assaulted because there was a cop nearby.

That sums it all up folks.

And now you have started ignoring my arguments. I can claim victory here....don't feel bad, your side of this argument was stupid, so you never really had a chance, even if you could put together a reasonable argument in the first place. =/ It's OK though we now know that you would rather go 0-84-0 with a team full of John Scotts, Nathan Gerbes, and Matt Ellises then win a cup.

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07-25-2012, 04:03 PM
  #142
Connor McDavid
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You see, only I understand what the "right way" to play this game is, and how "true leadership" is exhibited. If only you others could tell how much a player cares as easily as I can.

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07-25-2012, 04:04 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by HiddenInLight View Post
But I HAVE Been in the same relationship for 6 years....close enough.

Either way, the ONLY way I would have expected Vanek to fight, was if he was on the ice with the following:

Leino
Ennis
Gragninny
Pommer

Then yes, might have been reasonable to expect something of him then. But with Sekera and Gaustad on the ice, the idea is laughable.
I just can't fathom this thought process. If Vanek's the first guy on the scene he should go in swinging. End of story. This is hockey. When someone takes a run at a teammate, you don't wait and see if somebody on your team's going to do something about it. You make a statement, even if you get your ass kicked. That shows your team has heart and won't put up with that crap. Everyone out there let me down the day Miller got beaned.

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07-25-2012, 04:05 PM
  #144
Jame
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And now you have started ignoring my arguments. I can claim victory here....don't feel bad, your side of this argument was stupid, so you never really had a chance, even if you could put together a reasonable argument in the first place. =/
i got your argument... it's right here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by HiddenInLight View Post
Yes, but if somebody hit's your wife and there is an on duty Police Officer right there, your not going to start a fight, your going to let said police officer handle it, as to not make the situation any worse. In this scenario Gaustad and Sekera are the Police officers.
you can claim whatever you want... You're still an embarrassment, just like Vanek

But I do completely understand why you have the opinion you have.

I have a different opinion.

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07-25-2012, 04:06 PM
  #145
HiddenInLight
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Originally Posted by sabrescupbound View Post
I just can't fathom this thought process. If Vanek's the first guy on the scene he should go in swinging. End of story. This is hockey. When someone takes a run at a teammate, you don't wait and see if somebody on your team's going to do something about it. You make a statement, even if you get your ass kicked. That shows your team has heart and won't put up with that crap. Everyone out there let me down the day Miller got beaned.
Tell that to Pat Kane, or the Sedins.

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07-25-2012, 04:08 PM
  #146
Jame
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Originally Posted by HiddenInLight View Post
And now you have started ignoring my arguments. I can claim victory here....don't feel bad, your side of this argument was stupid, so you never really had a chance, even if you could put together a reasonable argument in the first place. =/ It's OK though we now know that you would rather go 0-84-0 with a team full of John Scotts, Nathan Gerbes, and Matt Ellises then win a cup.
Id rather go 84-0 with a team of Jarome Iginla's, David Backes's, Ryan Getzlaf's

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07-25-2012, 04:09 PM
  #147
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
i got your argument... it's right here:



you can claim whatever you want... You're still an embarrassment, just like Vanek

But I do completely understand why you have the opinion you have.

I have a different opinion.

That wasn't even really my argument, which was they should have run the Bruins out of the arena. They should have been the team that put up 6 goals on them. They did it later that year, why couldn't they do it then.

So your saying that you understand my oppinion because I know how the real world works, and you can easily find any rock that knows more about it then you? I'll take that victory.

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07-25-2012, 04:11 PM
  #148
Der Jaeger
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Originally Posted by HiddenInLight View Post
Yes, but if somebody hit's your wife and there is an on duty Police Officer right there, your not going to start a fight, your going to let said police officer handle it, as to not make the situation any worse. In this scenario Gaustad and Sekera are the Police officers.
If someone hit my wife, I didn't start the fight, but I'm finishing it. My concerns aren't for good law and order, or making the situation worse, at that point. For me, it's about two things: honor and the future.

For me, it's dishonorable to let someone hit my wife and not do anything. I'm also sending a message - hit my wife, and you're getting the worse part of the deal.

That's the lens I view that situation through, and the Lucic incident. All five players had an opportunity to uphold their honor, and didn't. All five players had an opportunity to send a message, and didn't.

Sure, four of the five guys on the ice would've gotten slammed by Lucic. After Lucic got out of the box, he should have been fought by Gaustad (if he didn't get the initial fight), Regehr, McCormick, etc. Then they should've ran Thomas as well.

Hockey is a competition of wills. The Bruins imposed their will on Buffalo, who did nothing.

BUT, that's just my view. It could be wrong.

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07-25-2012, 04:12 PM
  #149
Jame
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That wasn't even really my argument, which was they should have run the Bruins out of the arena. They should have been the team that put up 6 goals on them. They did it later that year, why couldn't they do it then.

So your saying that you understand my oppinion because I know how the real world works, and you can easily find any rock that knows more about it then you? I'll take that victory.
So after your girlfriend was assaulted, you would get up on the bar and do a dance?

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07-25-2012, 04:14 PM
  #150
Der Jaeger
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
I completely agree. And frankly don't understand why the concept is so foreign to some.

Stop articulating it so simplistically... it makes me look stooopid.
My bad. I'm sitting at my desk reading about thinking critically, with a lot of big words running though my head. If you want to know about what intuitive decision model Vanek used, I'm your man. Or about interactively complex systems.

Heading home. My head hurts. I need some gin. I used to drink beer, but I get too wound up.

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