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Sens-Oil: NOT Smyth or Smith!

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Old
01-14-2005, 11:33 AM
  #51
Wolfpack
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L2k
I like that BG!

I was thinking of adding Smith or Staois to the the deal but didn't want to complicate matters. I think we might have to add something more from the Sens end though in this deal.

What about:
Havlat, White & Pothier for Torres, Moreau & Staois?

Well, I've seen some good ideas posted here, but I think we're starting to go in the wrong direction here. First of all, the Oilers do not need another small centre (White) or a depth defenceman (Pothier). So in this latest proposal they'd be giving up three key roster players for Havlat and two guys they don't need. Plus, if you're looking at Moreau and Staios, in addition to the tough minutes they play you have to consider their contracts. They both signed long term deals at below market value in order to stay with the Oilers. If Lowe turns around and trades them, what kind of message does that send to the players?

I like Havlat and feel he would be excellent on the Oilers' top line, but my feeling is that the Oilers really only need someone to plug that hole at centre for 2-3 years, until either Pouliot or Schremp is ready to play. I'm thinking maybe a declining veteran or an underachieving youngster. If they got a young PPG star like Havlat they'd really have to overpay, something along the lines of what is proposed here. If I were an Ottawa fan and really felt that Havlat was expendable, I'd make this trade in a second. I believe Torres, Moreau and Staios are exactly the type of players that could get Ottawa to the next level.

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Old
01-14-2005, 03:45 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting004
From a Sens fan, no chance in hell. In all honesty we're not that bad in the physical department at all. We're not looking to turn this team into a bunch of guys who can hit but can't score. Havlat is our most dangerous offensive threat when he's on his game. The only player with his value on the Oils is Smyth...and that's why a deal between these teams prolly won't happen
ok, 1st, the sens got man-handled in the playoffs. So in all honesty, yes you are bad in that department.

Torres and Moreau scored 20 goals a piece last year.

Havlat is not your most dangerous offensive weapon, Marian Hossa is by far.

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01-14-2005, 04:30 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by salostyle
The way I see it...

Brewer = Havlat

Explanation: It fills an Oilers void for a sniper more than it does Ottawas need for another top tier d-man. Brewer would arguebly be #3 behind Chara and Redden for the Sens while Havlat steps in as Edmonton's most dangerous offensive threat. Slight edge to Edmonton but both teams come away smiling.

Torres = Vermette

Explanation: Torres is probably the better player and he definitely brings to the table what Ottawa has been lacking. Vermette is a young center with a bright future, stuck behind Spezza in Ottawa, and ready to bust out as an Oiler. Slight edge to Ottawa but both teams are satisfied.

Isbister and 3rd round pick = Phillips

Explanation: Phillips has been #3 behind Chara and Redden for years. Breaking out of that shadow is the best thing for his career and he would make a splash in Edmonton no doubt. Isbister IS still a decent power forward "project" and in case he does flop...AGAIN...the third rounder is there for insurance...if Izzy comes to life the third becomes the cherry on top for Ottawa.

Sounds fair enough to me, although rather unrealistic.

Looking at your breakdown of the trade it really doesn't make sense from the Sens point of view imo. But like previously mentioned it's better to look at it
1-Isbister + 3rd rounder for Havlat
2-Torres for Vermette
3-Brewer for Phillips

1) While Brewer is obviously a better offensive defensemen than Phillips that's not something the Sens really need. I think Brewer would definatly be behind Chara and Redden on the Sens depth chart and I would hate to break up the Phillips/Chara pairing. Phillips is a solid defensive defencemen who steps his game up in the playoffs and has more experience than Brewer. This trade seems unnecessary for both teams to make and makes sense for both players to remain on their current team as it doesn't fill a need for either team.

2) I really like both players in this deal and think it's a pretty fair deal for both sides. Neither guy has yet to prove themself at the NHL level but the Oilers look like a team who needs help down the middle and the Sens need a LW. Unlike the first part of the trade it actually fills a need for both teams.

3) The Oilers win this one by a landslide. Havlat is a much better player than Isbister and the 3rd round pick doesn't do anything to balance the trade.

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Old
01-14-2005, 05:20 PM
  #54
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ok, 1st, the sens got man-handled in the playoffs. So in all honesty, yes you are bad in that department.
Spoken like someone who didn't watch a minute of a single game of the series.

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01-14-2005, 05:48 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by senskickass12
1) While Brewer is obviously a better offensive defensemen than Phillips that's not something the Sens really need. I think Brewer would definatly be behind Chara and Redden on the Sens depth chart.
Brewer only scores a few more points than Phillips per year. All of them on the power play. Behind Redden, Brewer wouldn't get 1st unit PP time either.
There's no offensive advantage, Phillips is already ver good defensively... unless Brewer starts laying Golden Eggs, there isn't any useful upgrade here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pavel datsyuk
ok, 1st, the sens got man-handled in the playoffs. So in all honesty, yes you are bad in that department.
Ditto what Wondercarrot said.


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Old
01-14-2005, 06:46 PM
  #56
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A few things.

1)Brewer is useless offensively, but IMO underrated defensively. I would not trade Brewer for Phillips, although I'll grant you that it might be closer than a lot of Oil fans would admit.

2)Equating Vermette with Torres is IMO a big leap. At this point, I would not dream of a Torres for Vermette trade .

Although I think the Oilers do win this trade handily, some statements people have made are flawed.

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01-14-2005, 10:36 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oil slick
A few things.

1)Brewer is useless offensively, but IMO underrated defensively. I would not trade Brewer for Phillips, although I'll grant you that it might be closer than a lot of Oil fans would admit.

2)Equating Vermette with Torres is IMO a big leap. At this point, I would not dream of a Torres for Vermette trade .

Although I think the Oilers do win this trade handily, some statements people have made are flawed.
My main point with the Brewer/Phillips trade was that it's a trade that doesn't make sense for either team. I know +/- doesn't mean a whole lot but on the oilers last season Brewer had one of the worst +/- for the team and had the worst +/- of any other defencemen. I know +/- doesn't tell the whole story and I don't think that Brewer is as bad defensively as many people believe so you're probably right in that he's underrated defensively but I'd still take Phillips defensive game over Brewers.

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01-15-2005, 12:56 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfpack
Well, I've seen some good ideas posted here, but I think we're starting to go in the wrong direction here. First of all, the Oilers do not need another small centre (White) or a depth defenceman (Pothier). So in this latest proposal they'd be giving up three key roster players for Havlat and two guys they don't need. Plus, if you're looking at Moreau and Staios, in addition to the tough minutes they play you have to consider their contracts. They both signed long term deals at below market value in order to stay with the Oilers. If Lowe turns around and trades them, what kind of message does that send to the players?

I like Havlat and feel he would be excellent on the Oilers' top line, but my feeling is that the Oilers really only need someone to plug that hole at centre for 2-3 years, until either Pouliot or Schremp is ready to play. I'm thinking maybe a declining veteran or an underachieving youngster. If they got a young PPG star like Havlat they'd really have to overpay, something along the lines of what is proposed here. If I were an Ottawa fan and really felt that Havlat was expendable, I'd make this trade in a second. I believe Torres, Moreau and Staios are exactly the type of players that could get Ottawa to the next level.
There is no way in hell Statios deserves a 2.3mil deal :mad:

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01-15-2005, 02:36 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by senskickass12
My main point with the Brewer/Phillips trade was that it's a trade that doesn't make sense for either team. I know +/- doesn't mean a whole lot but on the oilers last season Brewer had one of the worst +/- for the team and had the worst +/- of any other defencemen. I know +/- doesn't tell the whole story and I don't think that Brewer is as bad defensively as many people believe so you're probably right in that he's underrated defensively but I'd still take Phillips defensive game over Brewers.
Ya, Brewer's +/- is a mix of two things. First, his TERRIBLE first third of the season. He's in his first serious relationship and that had him in a different place. Secondly, his plus minus is the worst because he, constantly, every game was out against the Forsbergs, Federovs, Naslunds, and Iginlas of the league. Not to bad of a +/- really when you're the 25 year old shut-down defenseman on a non-playoff team.

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Old
01-15-2005, 09:21 PM
  #60
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Aside from being the top-minutes guy on the Oilers' blueline, and generally the tough-minutes guy on the Oilers' blueline, another factor that impacts on Brewer's stats was that the Oilers had horrible goaltending for much of last season. Salo was among the worst starters in the league, if not the worst starter, last season. A lot of goals scored while Brewer was on the ice were completely Salo's fault and wouldn't have been scored if an average NHL goalie had been in net.

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01-16-2005, 01:39 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by oilers_guy_eddie
Aside from being the top-minutes guy on the Oilers' blueline, and generally the tough-minutes guy on the Oilers' blueline, another factor that impacts on Brewer's stats was that the Oilers had horrible goaltending for much of last season. Salo was among the worst starters in the league, if not the worst starter, last season. A lot of goals scored while Brewer was on the ice were completely Salo's fault and wouldn't have been scored if an average NHL goalie had been in net.

Ahem** Lalime had the 38th best save % in the league last year. I know Salo was slightly worse, but it is not like Phillips benefited from playing in front of a legitimate NHL#1.

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01-16-2005, 02:47 AM
  #62
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There is a way that a trade *could* be made (even with Smyth) between Ottawa and Edmonton. Having exhausted most possibilities, a three-team deal might be the intermediate needed to satisfy the needs of all the teams.

The components of that deal? I have no idea.

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01-16-2005, 04:44 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderstruck
Ahem** Lalime had the 38th best save % in the league last year. I know Salo was slightly worse, but it is not like Phillips benefited from playing in front of a legitimate NHL#1.
Even at that, just on the difference between their save % numbers, Salo gave up about 10 extra goals relative to Lalime. You can work it out yourself. Salo faced 1024 shots as an Oiler; if he'd had a S% of .905 instead of .896 that would be 10 more saves. Not all of those would be while Brewer was on the ice, but considering Brewer's minutes, and that he's on the ice against opposition's top players, certainly many of them would.

Relative to Brewer, Phillips' +/- stat benefits from playing fewer minutes, playing on the 2nd pairing, from playing on a team that has a more defensive focus, and yes, from playing in front of better goaltending.

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01-16-2005, 04:55 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderstruck
Ahem** Lalime had the 38th best save % in the league last year. I know Salo was slightly worse, but it is not like Phillips benefited from playing in front of a legitimate NHL#1.
True, but Phillips wasn't playing against the other teams top lines. Redden and Chara were doing that most of the time. I am sure phillips had some tough minutes, but he wasn't the go to guy in Ottawa. Brewer was. Not saying that is right or a good idea by MacT, but it is what happened.

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01-16-2005, 05:08 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s7ark
True, but Phillips wasn't playing against the other teams top lines. Redden and Chara were doing that most of the time. I am sure phillips had some tough minutes, but he wasn't the go to guy in Ottawa. Brewer was. Not saying that is right or a good idea by MacT, but it is what happened.
Why do people always assume Chara and Redden are defensive partners? They don't even play together on the PP (unless of course Chara is being used as a forward) Chara and Phillips have been the sens shut down pair for the past two seasons. So yes he did play against the other teams top lines on a regular basis. Redden started the season with Rachunek as his partner, and after the trade deVries and even Pothier saw some time with him.

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01-16-2005, 07:20 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Wondercarrot
Spoken like someone who didn't watch a minute of a single game of the series.

i didn't? There offensive sucked, their goaltending was sub-par, and their defense, which was on paper much better than the leafs, got taken to the cleaners by the aging toronto offense.

and i know an offense that old shouldn't win a series too, i'm a detroit fan.

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01-16-2005, 07:38 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skrymir
Why do people always assume Chara and Redden are defensive partners? They don't even play together on the PP (unless of course Chara is being used as a forward) Chara and Phillips have been the sens shut down pair for the past two seasons.
Ok, we'll scratch "didn't play against top opposing lines" but add "Norris-calibre defense partner" to Phillips' advantages.

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