HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Pacific Division > San Jose Sharks
Notices

Offseason Armchair GM Thread Part IIX (aka VIII)

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
07-29-2012, 01:17 AM
  #301
Hatrick Marleau
Nikolay GOALdobin
 
Hatrick Marleau's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: With JR
Posts: 4,308
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fistfullofbeer View Post
My guess is DW is going to trade for an RFA.
Like who? I don't think there are any top 6 RFAs. I think they have all been signed.

Hatrick Marleau is offline  
Old
07-29-2012, 01:50 AM
  #302
Gene Parmesan
Ball-So-Hard-U
 
Gene Parmesan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: California
Country: United States
Posts: 29,258
vCash: 500
The "heart" debate again eh? The Sharks lacked chemistry and never solidified an identity....they had the heart and grit but there was a definite lack of cohesion from management to coaching and on to the players. Hopefully with less turnover and a longer summer for some guys to get well...we will see a better team...you don't need the best players...just the right players. Pretty popular mantra in sports.

Gene Parmesan is offline  
Old
07-29-2012, 01:55 AM
  #303
TheJuxtaposer
Lost a bet
 
TheJuxtaposer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: San Diego, CA
Country: United States
Posts: 26,046
vCash: 567
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4thLinePlug View Post
you dont win with heart and soul. your killing me

LA was full of the heart and soul types. Boston would kill their 1st born children for the puck. Ditto with Chicago. Pittsburgh and Detriot were the perfect mixture of speed and skill. Anahiem was built to run you over and laugh at you while they scored. Carolina is the definition of heart and soul.

whats common amungst these teams? oh yah, theyre the teams to have won the cup post lockout.

who hasnt? washington comes to mind. that ovechkin-backstrom-semin-green core is way more skilled then 75% of the above teams. correct me if im wrong, but theyve yet to sniff the ECF, littleown the SCF.

Vancouver? once again tons of skill, but they havent won the cup, as they didnt wanna get down and dirty to battle with the bruins.

with a top 6 that features soft as butter players havlat and marleau, clowes toughness, grit, determination and skill is IMPOSSIBLE to replace. i'd take the turnovers and the poor defence, as long as he continues to fight for that puck, battle for teammates and most importantly protect the puck like a momma bear protects her cubs.

ironically, clowe type players have been on cup winning teams as well

dustin brown, milan lucic, dustin byfuglien, but no thats just a coincidence...

will defeats skill when skill doesnt work as hard as will, and i guarntee few work as hard as clowe.
"Heart and soul" is a giant perception. Let me explain how you've deluded yourself.

LA: Come on. Drew Doughty was a "heart and soul" guy? He was probably LA's best player after Quick. Kopitar was a "heart and sould guy"? He's as stereotypically Euro as you can get. Jeff Carter? Everyone was convinced he was a cancer and that he was a floater and would never win a Cup. Dustin Brown, even, was a fallacy. He's a diving whiner that nobody called a "heart and soul" guy until he one a Cup by having a nice string of fortunate percentages that inflated his point totals over a small sample size and convinced everyone that he was "stepping up".

Boston: Unless you equate "dirty" with "heart and soul", Boston was hardly that. You use Lucic as an example? That's funny, because he's the same guy who admitted to not being able to step up in these past playoffs. Great "heart and soul", huh? Boston one because of one guy: Tim Thomas. And he's not a "heart and soul" guy. He's actually a ginormous *********.

Chicago: Yeah, Patrick Kane, "heart and soul" guy. Marian Hossa, storied playoff choker, "heart and soul" guy. I love how you use Dustin Byfuglian as an example too. Guy who gives no crap about his training or defense at all. Please. Chicago won because of pure skill and depth.

Pittsburgh: Two words: Evgeni Malkin. I'm sorry, but I think the Penguins won because they had the two best players in the world on their team, one of whom on an ELC. Sorry to burst your bubble there.

Detroit: Nicklas Lidstrom is calm and quiet. The opposite of Ryane Clowe. And yet so much more of a winner.

Need I go on? Team win because ofskill, not "heart and soul". If that were so, explain to me this: Why does Shane Doan not have a Cup? Why does Daniel Alfredsson not have a Cup? Why does Jarome Iginla not have a Cup? Huh? Why not, if "heart and soul" means so much more than skill.

And lastly, you operate under the fallacy that "heart and soul" must be loud and fiery and angry and physical, and that's the thing that kills me. You don't know what's going on in anyone's head. You look at those exit interviews and Joe Thornton is easily the most distinguished as wanting to win the most, but he's not a "heart and soul" guy, according to your standards.

When it comes down to it, I'd rather have a team of Patrick Marleaus than a team of Ryane Clowes. Why? Because skill beats heart every time. I'm certainly glad you aren't our GM.


Last edited by TheJuxtaposer: 07-29-2012 at 02:01 AM.
TheJuxtaposer is offline  
Old
07-29-2012, 02:06 AM
  #304
MadmanSJ
Know Your Onion!
 
MadmanSJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: San Jose
Country: United States
Posts: 1,317
vCash: 500

MadmanSJ is offline  
Old
07-29-2012, 02:24 AM
  #305
Mafoofoo
:facepalm:
 
Mafoofoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Los Angeles
Country: United States
Posts: 12,833
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadmanSJ View Post
A perfect example of how useless heart and soul is. He never did anything but talk to monkeys.

Mafoofoo is offline  
Old
07-29-2012, 02:27 AM
  #306
Inub0i
I will Q
 
Inub0i's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: UC Irvine, Irvine
Country: United States
Posts: 8,613
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Inub0i Send a message via MSN to Inub0i Send a message via Skype™ to Inub0i
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
"Heart and soul" is a giant perception. Let me explain how you've deluded yourself.

LA: Come on. Drew Doughty was a "heart and soul" guy? He was probably LA's best player after Quick. Kopitar was a "heart and sould guy"? He's as stereotypically Euro as you can get. Jeff Carter? Everyone was convinced he was a cancer and that he was a floater and would never win a Cup. Dustin Brown, even, was a fallacy. He's a diving whiner that nobody called a "heart and soul" guy until he one a Cup by having a nice string of fortunate percentages that inflated his point totals over a small sample size and convinced everyone that he was "stepping up".

Boston: Unless you equate "dirty" with "heart and soul", Boston was hardly that. You use Lucic as an example? That's funny, because he's the same guy who admitted to not being able to step up in these past playoffs. Great "heart and soul", huh? Boston one because of one guy: Tim Thomas. And he's not a "heart and soul" guy. He's actually a ginormous *********.

Chicago: Yeah, Patrick Kane, "heart and soul" guy. Marian Hossa, storied playoff choker, "heart and soul" guy. I love how you use Dustin Byfuglian as an example too. Guy who gives no crap about his training or defense at all. Please. Chicago won because of pure skill and depth.

Pittsburgh: Two words: Evgeni Malkin. I'm sorry, but I think the Penguins won because they had the two best players in the world on their team, one of whom on an ELC. Sorry to burst your bubble there.

Detroit: Nicklas Lidstrom is calm and quiet. The opposite of Ryane Clowe. And yet so much more of a winner.

Need I go on? Team win because ofskill, not "heart and soul". If that were so, explain to me this: Why does Shane Doan not have a Cup? Why does Daniel Alfredsson not have a Cup? Why does Jarome Iginla not have a Cup? Huh? Why not, if "heart and soul" means so much more than skill.

And lastly, you operate under the fallacy that "heart and soul" must be loud and fiery and angry and physical, and that's the thing that kills me. You don't know what's going on in anyone's head. You look at those exit interviews and Joe Thornton is easily the most distinguished as wanting to win the most, but he's not a "heart and soul" guy, according to your standards.

When it comes down to it, I'd rather have a team of Patrick Marleaus than a team of Ryane Clowes. Why? Because skill beats heart every time. I'm certainly glad you aren't our GM.

As useless as heart is... Heart and soul are still necessary.
A little bit of both can do this team good. But skill is a must.

That said... a team of Marleaus would be sweet. Fast skating everywhere, defensive awareness, and finishing ability! Now if they all had Boyle's work ethic, then we'd be set.

And.. I just sounded like an idiot.

Inub0i is offline  
Old
07-29-2012, 02:30 AM
  #307
MadmanSJ
Know Your Onion!
 
MadmanSJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: San Jose
Country: United States
Posts: 1,317
vCash: 500
Heart is one of the 5 vital elements to salvation. I see nothing about skill in there.

Hrmph!

Heaaaaaaart!

MadmanSJ is offline  
Old
07-29-2012, 02:38 AM
  #308
TheJuxtaposer
Lost a bet
 
TheJuxtaposer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: San Diego, CA
Country: United States
Posts: 26,046
vCash: 567
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inub0i View Post
As useless as heart is... Heart and soul are still necessary.
A little bit of both can do this team good. But skill is a must.

That said... a team of Marleaus would be sweet. Fast skating everywhere, defensive awareness, and finishing ability! Now if they all had Boyle's work ethic, then we'd be set.

And.. I just sounded like an idiot.
Obviously a team of mindless drones wouldn't work out (cue the Marleau jokes), but you cannot win without skill. Your depth guys can be "character" guys, but your top-end players need to make their money for skill.

And secondly, it's not like I'm discounting heart totally, but I'm discounting the idea that heart has to be displayed as Clowe does. I'd argue that Pavs has more "heart" than Clowe does, by an acceptable definition to me.

I mean, determination and tenacity is different than "heart". For example, Clowe is stupid in his "gritty" ways. He constantly takes himself off the ice in exchange for a 4th line scrub. He gets too caught up seeing red, and doesn't use his brain. If that's heart, I don't want it.

TheJuxtaposer is offline  
Old
07-29-2012, 02:45 AM
  #309
Hold the Pickles
Registered User
 
Hold the Pickles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: 03-K64
Country: United States
Posts: 2,926
vCash: 500
Trying to simplify success between just skill and will is silly. There are numerous other attributes that contribute to success. Having the right combination of those attributes only increases your chances of success. There is still strategy, ability to adapt and even multiple forms of luck (from match-ups to bounces to injuries).

Hold the Pickles is offline  
Old
07-29-2012, 03:02 AM
  #310
MadmanSJ
Know Your Onion!
 
MadmanSJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: San Jose
Country: United States
Posts: 1,317
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hold the Pickles View Post
Trying to simplify success between just skill and will is silly. There are numerous other attributes that contribute to success. Having the right combination of those attributes only increases your chances of success. There is still strategy, ability to adapt and even multiple forms of luck (from match-ups to bounces to injuries).
Oh man, now this is just getting confusing now!

MadmanSJ is offline  
Old
07-29-2012, 03:19 AM
  #311
NWShark*
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,714
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WantonAbandon View Post
Oh for the love of... for probably the seventh time Burish has been a third liner for the last two seasons.

Yes Burish is the Sharks 7th best forward assuming Handzus doesn't make a miraculous comeback worthy of the Masterton trophy. Of course he is going to be on the third line
This. Burish's numbers all say he will be an upgrade on the 3rd line assuming he stays healthy.

NWShark* is offline  
Old
07-29-2012, 03:26 AM
  #312
NWShark*
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,714
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WantonAbandon View Post
The problem is Clowe does a lot of things that do fit. The main complaints are his speed and turnovers. The problem is Clowe is a possession machine. It is very hard to take the puck from him even when he is mangled and nearly broken, but yes sometimes he makes bad decisions with his passing. Couture and Havlat need a guy like Clowe. Clowe isn't as easy to replace as some think.
I disagree with this. Couture and Havlat need someone who can play without the puck and with a little more speed in their game (thinking and skating). Clowe hangs onto the puck too long which slows down the game whereas couture and havlat both would benefit from playing a more uptempo cycle game with quicker passing. If anyone should be handling the puck it's havlat with his quick stops and starts. Honestly I hope someone like TJ or Wingels can grow into the player they need. A burner that can bang the body on the other wing with those 2 should help them immensely. Clowe is truly perfect on the 3rd line where he mainly needs 2 players with speed and defensive awareness to cover for his turnovers and occasionally convert his passes. Everyone wants to move Pavs to the third but we have plenty of centers that I would move Clowe to the 3rd.

NWShark* is offline  
Old
07-29-2012, 03:30 AM
  #313
NWShark*
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,714
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
you got more problems than a third line and a middle-of-the-road PK is going to fix...
Let's be intellectually honest here.. the sharks PK was not "middle of the road". Middle of the road implies average.. they were one the worst in the league.. That's more like off the road lying in a ditch next to a dead armadillo... ;P

NWShark* is offline  
Old
07-29-2012, 03:32 AM
  #314
sharski
Registered User
 
sharski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,342
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hold the Pickles View Post
Trying to simplify success between just skill and will is silly. There are numerous other attributes that contribute to success. Having the right combination of those attributes only increases your chances of success. There is still strategy, ability to adapt and even multiple forms of luck (from match-ups to bounces to injuries).
i thought we all agreed that the only ingredient required for success is speed

sharski is offline  
Old
07-29-2012, 03:39 AM
  #315
NWShark*
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,714
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gene Parmesan View Post
The "heart" debate again eh? The Sharks lacked chemistry and never solidified an identity....they had the heart and grit but there was a definite lack of cohesion from management to coaching and on to the players. Hopefully with less turnover and a longer summer for some guys to get well...we will see a better team...you don't need the best players...just the right players. Pretty popular mantra in sports.
This. The sharks didn't have a problem with heart or effort against the blues. They looked like a peewee team running around in their own zone because they lacked chemistry. The whole idea that everyone needs to pull together on the rope analogy... Bad passive defensive system, no chemistry, no wins...

NWShark* is offline  
Old
07-29-2012, 03:44 AM
  #316
NWShark*
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,714
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
When it comes down to it, I'd rather have a team of Patrick Marleaus than a team of Ryane Clowes. Why? Because skill beats heart every time. I'm certainly glad you aren't our GM.
Ooo! A team full of Marleaus would totally solve our speed problems but we'd have trouble scoring in the first 2 rounds of the playoffs and our window to win would be pretty short since he's he's not getting any younger... ;P Wait, can we have just one CLowe to go with all those Marleaus cause Patty can't fight for ****...

NWShark* is offline  
Old
07-29-2012, 03:52 AM
  #317
OrrNumber4
Registered User
 
OrrNumber4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Country: Switzerland
Posts: 7,360
vCash: 500
What strikes me about teams that have won the cup in recent years is not heart or skill, necessarily.

Other than the Penguins teams that had Crosby and Malkin, the teams post-lockout demonstrated an ability to "beat you in many ways". A multi-faceted attack. The Sharks have either been a speed team, a gritty team, a passing team, a possession team, but they've never really had all three. They've never had a top scoring line AND a top shutdown line. They've never had a defense that could skate it out, pass it out, or grind it out.

Even aside from the strategy, LA had a lot of players this year who could "win in multiple ways". Brown, Richards, and Carter especially can play well against any type of system.
Moreover, all those teams had SC-quality goaltending in the playoffs. They might not have had quality goaltenders, but for whatever reason, their goalies played with quality during their run.

OrrNumber4 is offline  
Old
07-29-2012, 03:53 AM
  #318
TheJuxtaposer
Lost a bet
 
TheJuxtaposer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: San Diego, CA
Country: United States
Posts: 26,046
vCash: 567
Quote:
Originally Posted by NWShark View Post
I disagree with this. Couture and Havlat need someone who can play without the puck and with a little more speed in their game (thinking and skating). Clowe hangs onto the puck too long which slows down the game whereas couture and havlat both would benefit from playing a more uptempo cycle game with quicker passing. If anyone should be handling the puck it's havlat with his quick stops and starts. Honestly I hope someone like TJ or Wingels can grow into the player they need. A burner that can bang the body on the other wing with those 2 should help them immensely. Clowe is truly perfect on the 3rd line where he mainly needs 2 players with speed and defensive awareness to cover for his turnovers and occasionally convert his passes. Everyone wants to move Pavs to the third but we have plenty of centers that I would move Clowe to the 3rd.
I actually think that if Wingels pans out like I think he can and will, he'd be the perfect linemate for Couture and Havlat. He'd be strong and physical like Clowe, but he's a good skater and can do the dirty work like fore-checking and zone entries and standing in front of the net.

TheJuxtaposer is offline  
Old
07-29-2012, 04:52 AM
  #319
Dicdonya
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: San Jose
Posts: 612
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
A good third line is not going to turn one goal or less performances into wins in the playoffs.
Go ask LA if the goals by King, stoll or lewis turned any of their games into wins. Ill wait. Oh yeah btw, our third line having not scored their one goal this playoffs would have resulted in us not winning a single game. Go check it out.

So yeah, a third line that can actually help you score more than once every five games, can very much impact your w/l record. I seriously have no clue how you can try to pretend having a better ANY line would not help in winning or losing. Its an asinine statement. LA's bottom six scored at a .65 gpg avg and 1.35 ppg. Our bottom six scored at a .20 gpg and .80 ppg pace. How you dont think getting 13 extra goals in 20 playoff games has no impact is beyond me, seriously I just dont even know what to say if you really believe that. Having a productive bottom six IS important and we do NOT have one.


Quote:
You're making the argument that a good third line would create at least two goals in the Sharks' favor and that is just not going to happen consistently with a third line AND in the playoffs.
I never made the argument they would account for a two goal favor ever. Please tell me where I did. Ill wait. I said that having a bottom six that can actually contribute on the scoreboard will help us win games.


Quote:
When you're snuffed out like they were against St. Louis in a consistent and dominant manner, you got more problems than a third line and a middle-of-the-road PK is going to fix...and the latter is about all the Sharks can hope for with just a coaching rearrangement.
Go ask teams like LA and Stl or Wash if a coaching change helped a whole lot more than just giving them a middling PK. Ill wait.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
Out-scoring them in even strength is meaningless if your special teams, and I mean both sides, are so bad that you get whipped in those situations. The PK wasn't the only problem that needed fixing. The PP was atrocious as well. And their even strength play wasn't even that good either when you break it down against the Blues. They scored one ES goal that gave them a lead in regulation and that was game five. They scored the winner of game one at ES. The other four goals happened when they were behind and three of them happened when the game was already pretty much over by then.
Sorry but you just said that improving the special teams with a new coach wont help, then go on to say we were destroyed by special teams. So if we improved the speacial teams(hello new PK and defensive minded coachs!) and also got any form of production from our bottom six(which are cheaper and easier to find/ trade for than top six guys), how is it again that we would not have won more games against the blues, or in general?

Quote:
To add on to that, the coaching changes will be lucky to see results where the team's PK gets to the league average. That difference is not enough to turn the tide when the team was having critical issues scoring against the Blues. The PK isn't going to mean you will score more goals if you fix it.
Seeing as how many believe, and most likely are right, that our PK was bad because we implemented a horrible PK strategy, it would be quite concievable that getting a new coach in to handle the PK, that would actually institute a good PK system, would have drastic effects on how good the PK becomes this year. Also just cause your PK doesnt score more goals does not mean that its effect on the team ends right after the penalty is over. A ton of momentum can be gained,or taken from the other team, from a good kill, and a good PK CAN get you more points as has been proven by teams who can score shorthanded. Something marleau used to be able to do, not so much in the horrible system we had this past year.(maybe its just him too, seriously dont know)


Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
Yeah, it does make sense. A better fit as in someone who puts up the same amount of points, aka a "lateral move" in the eyes of some, but someone who is faster and smarter with the puck.

I'm so ****ing sick of the "heart and soul" argument. You don't win with "heart and soul". You win with talent that is put in a system that is designed to maximize that talent and promote teamwork.

It's easy to replace Clowe if you're getting another 50 point player who is faster and smarter and better defensively. Even if Clowe outscores that player, the net effect on the team would be better.
If its so easy Jux please tell me one single player in the league that you think we could trade for(realistically) that would be as productive as clowe, but with better speed and defense. Also tell me how you would get such a player without giving up more than one roster player, plus minor picks/prospects. I never argued that getting a player with speed and better defense to replace clowe, or just aquire so we have 7 top six caliber guys, was a bad idea. I said that the pieces you need to give up to get him would be creating new holes or depleting our already horrible depth. You dont just find 45-60pt players with good speed and defense ,falling from trees, they come at a hefty price in a trade or free agency.

Dicdonya is offline  
Old
07-29-2012, 07:13 AM
  #320
OnTheFence
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 449
vCash: 500
Kulemin is the only one that comes to mind. But he's only posted 50+ pts once. I'm with you, though. I have no idea how they're going to get either another top 6 forward, or a replacement for Clowe without creating a hole elsewhere.

IMO, DW was seriously banking on Nash turning into a Heatley v2.0 situation where he'd swoop him up for peanuts, but it didn't work out. So now IMO he's going to roll with the current team, and hope Handzus can bounce back to solidify a 3rd line, Sheppard can be useful as a tweener, and the revamped coaching staff will be enough to keep the Sharks in the playoffs.

The only move I see coming would be signing Moore for another season.

OnTheFence is offline  
Old
07-29-2012, 08:56 AM
  #321
Pinkfloyd
Registered User
 
Pinkfloyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Roseville
Country: United States
Posts: 31,302
vCash: 2283
Quote:
Originally Posted by WantonAbandon View Post
That combined with hip surgery... And Pink, Laperriere won without playing a single game. Handzus can win.

Also Theodore won the Masterton the season after his son died
Laperriere came back after a concussion that took out his entire season and his career. And Theodore had something that was personal that only happened to him and not the entire league. There's a massive difference. Handzus is not the only one that was affected by that tragedy in this league and a hip injury is not severe enough for him to be looked at nationally by the media for such an award. I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't even get nominated from the Sharks end of things. James Sheppard has a better shot at that nomination.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NWShark View Post
Let's be intellectually honest here.. the sharks PK was not "middle of the road". Middle of the road implies average.. they were one the worst in the league.. That's more like off the road lying in a ditch next to a dead armadillo... ;P
The middle of the road comment is meant to say that that is where I expect the PK to be with the coaching changes. The people believing that just fixing the PK would have meant wins in the playoffs against the Blues are wrong, imo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dicdonya View Post
Go ask LA if the goals by King, stoll or lewis turned any of their games into wins. Ill wait. Oh yeah btw, our third line having not scored their one goal this playoffs would have resulted in us not winning a single game. Go check it out.

So yeah, a third line that can actually help you score more than once every five games, can very much impact your w/l record. I seriously have no clue how you can try to pretend having a better ANY line would not help in winning or losing. Its an asinine statement. LA's bottom six scored at a .65 gpg avg and 1.35 ppg. Our bottom six scored at a .20 gpg and .80 ppg pace. How you dont think getting 13 extra goals in 20 playoff games has no impact is beyond me, seriously I just dont even know what to say if you really believe that. Having a productive bottom six IS important and we do NOT have one.

See, now that's you taking that out of context. I didn't say it wouldn't help. I said they have more problems than those two things being fixed would do in terms of winning especially against the Blues. Even the Kings didn't get a goal a game with their entire bottom six so the Sharks getting that goal a game from their third line, while completely unrealistic, wouldn't be enough to turn the tide on its own. And neither would being realistic with PK fixes since it wouldn't cut out all the PP goals against.

The Sharks had a lot more problems than those two things. The offense in general was a problem. They were routinely out-played when the score was tied. They were routinely out-played when they were on the man advantage. The only time they scored a meaningful goal was game 1 and Thornton's opening marker in game five. Everything else was too little too late or a PP goal.


I never made the argument they would account for a two goal favor ever. Please tell me where I did. Ill wait. I said that having a bottom six that can actually contribute on the scoreboard will help us win games.

Unless you also have the account of WantonAbandon, I didn't respond to you with that comment so I don't know why you're making a point of this in this fashion.

Go ask teams like LA and Stl or Wash if a coaching change helped a whole lot more than just giving them a middling PK. Ill wait.

Now this is comparing apples to oranges. Those situations involved their head coach, not their assistants. I've already laid out what I feel will happen with the changes they made. They will have some improvements with the PK but they're susceptible right now to a slide in the PP.

Sorry but you just said that improving the special teams with a new coach wont help, then go on to say we were destroyed by special teams. So if we improved the speacial teams(hello new PK and defensive minded coachs!) and also got any form of production from our bottom six(which are cheaper and easier to find/ trade for than top six guys), how is it again that we would not have won more games against the blues, or in general?

And again, you're taking things out of context. I said fixing the PK to the point where it's the middle of the road is not going to help win games on its own. The theme to your response is taking what was actually said, talking about the third line and PK's in particular, and warping that into special teams and the bottom six. Please stick to responding to what was actually said.

Seeing as how many believe, and most likely are right, that our PK was bad because we implemented a horrible PK strategy, it would be quite concievable that getting a new coach in to handle the PK, that would actually institute a good PK system, would have drastic effects on how good the PK becomes this year. Also just cause your PK doesnt score more goals does not mean that its effect on the team ends right after the penalty is over. A ton of momentum can be gained,or taken from the other team, from a good kill, and a good PK CAN get you more points as has been proven by teams who can score shorthanded. Something marleau used to be able to do, not so much in the horrible system we had this past year.(maybe its just him too, seriously dont know)
You're assuming that a coach on its own can turn a second to last PK group into a top notch PK group. That is simply unrealistic when you don't have much of a turnover in personnel to improve that aspect. My opinion is that the team will be lucky to turn the PK into an average one and that would be a huge accomplishment and have a positive effect but people are dreaming if they think it will become a top unit with the group that we have. Yes, Marleau and Pavelski are good PK'ers. What after that though? Thornton and Couture? Handzus and Burish? Desjardins and Galiardi? Wingels and Havlat/Sheppard/whoever? I'm sorry but that's not good enough and most of those guys with the exception being Couture and Burish at this point are below average PK'ers right now.

The PK was a problem but it wasn't the only problem. The third line was a problem but it wasn't the only one. There was not one part of their game that wasn't a problem. Yeah, they outscored the Blues at even strength but half of their goals at even strength came in the dying stages of a game that they were down by multiple goals. Two of the other three came in game one. And the other came to open game five's scoring. So in three games, they couldn't do anything at even strength that gave them a lead or tied the game. They were out-played at even strength because while they may not have been scored against, they were taking penalties which was just as good as scoring against them. The team couldn't score on the power play either. So tell me how a third line even getting a goal a game, which is unrealistic, and an average PK is going to turn the tide in that series?

Pinkfloyd is offline  
Old
07-29-2012, 09:08 AM
  #322
McLovin25
Eberle=Clutch
 
McLovin25's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 4,217
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
"Heart and soul" is a giant perception. Let me explain how you've deluded yourself.

LA: Come on. Drew Doughty was a "heart and soul" guy? He was probably LA's best player after Quick. Kopitar was a "heart and sould guy"? He's as stereotypically Euro as you can get. Jeff Carter? Everyone was convinced he was a cancer and that he was a floater and would never win a Cup. Dustin Brown, even, was a fallacy. He's a diving whiner that nobody called a "heart and soul" guy until he one a Cup by having a nice string of fortunate percentages that inflated his point totals over a small sample size and convinced everyone that he was "stepping up".

Boston: Unless you equate "dirty" with "heart and soul", Boston was hardly that. You use Lucic as an example? That's funny, because he's the same guy who admitted to not being able to step up in these past playoffs. Great "heart and soul", huh? Boston one because of one guy: Tim Thomas. And he's not a "heart and soul" guy. He's actually a ginormous *********.

Chicago: Yeah, Patrick Kane, "heart and soul" guy. Marian Hossa, storied playoff choker, "heart and soul" guy. I love how you use Dustin Byfuglian as an example too. Guy who gives no crap about his training or defense at all. Please. Chicago won because of pure skill and depth.

Pittsburgh: Two words: Evgeni Malkin. I'm sorry, but I think the Penguins won because they had the two best players in the world on their team, one of whom on an ELC. Sorry to burst your bubble there.

Detroit: Nicklas Lidstrom is calm and quiet. The opposite of Ryane Clowe. And yet so much more of a winner.

Need I go on? Team win because ofskill, not "heart and soul". If that were so, explain to me this: Why does Shane Doan not have a Cup? Why does Daniel Alfredsson not have a Cup? Why does Jarome Iginla not have a Cup? Huh? Why not, if "heart and soul" means so much more than skill.

And lastly, you operate under the fallacy that "heart and soul" must be loud and fiery and angry and physical, and that's the thing that kills me. You don't know what's going on in anyone's head. You look at those exit interviews and Joe Thornton is easily the most distinguished as wanting to win the most, but he's not a "heart and soul" guy, according to your standards.

When it comes down to it, I'd rather have a team of Patrick Marleaus than a team of Ryane Clowes. Why? Because skill beats heart every time. I'm certainly glad you aren't our GM.
Convienient you left out Mike Richards outta LA. It was obvious that he got Vancouver as a whole off their game. Penner and Williams also had grit. And you can get away with the top 6 having 2 grit players when all your bottom 6 had the amount of grit this team did. I'd kill for their lines 3-4.

Boston WASNT dirty in the playoffs last year. Lucic was going fulll force last year, and they won. Although i will give credit to Thomas, who did have a miracle run. Funny how when lucic admits that he himself didnt play well, they lose round 1.

Hossa wasnt a playoff choker, he just gets that label because of the irony of him switching teams to the winning team, and getting beat by his old team. But he dopes have grit. In fact, i'd argue that Kane is the only not gritty player in the top 6 in Chicago.

Pittsburgh, yes Malkin was unreal. Crosby didnt play great though. Seems to me Max Talbot, one of the girttiest guys around scored 2 goals in a 2-1 game 7 win in the SCF. One of the top players after Malkin was J.Staal, who has enourmous grit.

Detriot, yah, they may be the exception to my grit thing, but none of the other teams have Lidstrom, Datsyuk, Zetterberg etc.

Carolina and Anahiem are 2 very gritty teams especially the year they won it.

And no, actually id rank grit on this team as Thornton, Pavelski, Clowe. Couture doesnt have alot of grit, but he isnt soft either. The main problem is the lower lines need grit. Desjardins and Burish are the only 2 players in the bottom 6 that ive seen play with grit. If Wingels and Galliardi step up, they might as well. But no one in your bottom 6 can be soft, when you have as soft a top 6 as we have.

And of course i wouldnt want an entire team of Clowes, but you overlook the fact that he is one of the best COMPLIMENTRY pieces out there. Hes a guy that cant single handidily win the cup for you, but with the right teammates he sure as hell can help.

McLovin25 is offline  
Old
07-29-2012, 12:58 PM
  #323
Hold the Pickles
Registered User
 
Hold the Pickles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: 03-K64
Country: United States
Posts: 2,926
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by superroyain10 View Post
What strikes me about teams that have won the cup in recent years is not heart or skill, necessarily.

Other than the Penguins teams that had Crosby and Malkin, the teams post-lockout demonstrated an ability to "beat you in many ways". A multi-faceted attack. The Sharks have either been a speed team, a gritty team, a passing team, a possession team, but they've never really had all three. They've never had a top scoring line AND a top shutdown line. They've never had a defense that could skate it out, pass it out, or grind it out.

Even aside from the strategy, LA had a lot of players this year who could "win in multiple ways". Brown, Richards, and Carter especially can play well against any type of system.
Moreover, all those teams had SC-quality goaltending in the playoffs. They might not have had quality goaltenders, but for whatever reason, their goalies played with quality during their run.
Well said. This is actually more of what I meant. I think the best team we've had (at least at PO health) was the year we almost got swept by the ducks. I think that if we had gotten past them, we would have had a good shot at the cup. They were by far our worst match-up and were the only team that could have exposed us like that.

Hold the Pickles is offline  
Old
07-29-2012, 01:10 PM
  #324
Led Zappa
Oy vey...
 
Led Zappa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Country: Scotland
Posts: 32,472
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hold the Pickles View Post
Well said. This is actually more of what I meant. I think the best team we've had (at least at PO health) was the year we almost got swept by the ducks. I think that if we had gotten past them, we would have had a good shot at the cup. They were by far our worst match-up and were the only team that could have exposed us like that.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. That team was more injured than any recent team we've had entering the PO's. Even if we had gotten past the Ducks, there is no way we were going all the way.

__________________

"This is not a nick or a scratch, this is an open wound" - Doug Wilson.
Led Zappa is online now  
Old
07-29-2012, 01:27 PM
  #325
Hold the Pickles
Registered User
 
Hold the Pickles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: 03-K64
Country: United States
Posts: 2,926
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Led Zappa View Post
I'm not sure what you mean by this. That team was more injured than any recent team we've had entering the PO's. Even if we had gotten past the Ducks, there is no way we were going all the way.
I meant that I realized years ago that I shouldn't post drunk and now I realize I shouldn't post before my first cup of coffee.

Hold the Pickles is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:41 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.