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Offseason Armchair GM Thread Part IIX (aka VIII)

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Old
08-14-2012, 01:46 AM
  #926
WantonAbandon
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HB just as the owners have a right to not pay a hockey player over x amount of dollars the same player has a right to say he and his colleagues won't play hockey for anything less than x amount of dollars. And they have the right to hire representatives in such matters. Isn't representation what America is supposed to be about? Probably Canada too...

Electricians have this right, so do plumbers, so do teachers, and so on and so forth.

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08-14-2012, 01:47 AM
  #927
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Originally Posted by NWShark View Post
So what? One of those stats sites just posted something that showed that Boyle isn't the liability he used be defensively. Not buying that boyle is the problem either. Not even sure how anyone can watch that team play last year and not realize it's a system issue over a personnel issue with the PK.
A teams personnel is often what causes a coach to shape or at least tweak a system. What I have watched since Blakes absence is a Sharks team that struggles to enter the neutral zone or get out of their own zone against particular teams. This weakness is amplified on the PK


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08-14-2012, 01:47 AM
  #928
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It's not illegal. I was a member of SAG and AFTRA, I was a child actor from the ages of 6-15.
Ah.. gotcha! Didn't even think of that. Huggies model..?

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08-14-2012, 01:48 AM
  #929
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Originally Posted by WantonAbandon View Post
A teams personnel is often what shapes or at least tweaks a system
But not in this case...

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08-14-2012, 01:49 AM
  #930
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It's not illegal. I was a member of SAG and AFTRA, I was a child actor from the ages of 6-15.
Have I seen you in anything?

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08-14-2012, 03:31 AM
  #931
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Originally Posted by WantonAbandon View Post
HB just as the owners have a right to not pay a hockey player over x amount of dollars the same player has a right to say he and his colleagues won't play hockey for anything less than x amount of dollars. And they have the right to hire representatives in such matters. Isn't representation what America is supposed to be about? Probably Canada too...

Electricians have this right, so do plumbers, so do teachers, and so on and so forth.
Even though what you say is very true, it still is less intelligent for the players to ruin their sport by letting the "representatives" decide how much they are willing to play for, and to lobby for all sorts of other crap that should not even be provided.

If teams cant make enough money, they cease to exist, thus every player on that teams just lost their job, and make 0$. Not to mention the hundreds of people that work for and with that team losing their job as well. The owners, already having other businesses will lose money, be pissed about it, and make more elsewhere. The players, having just lost their most marketable skill, have to go looking for jobs elsewhere at FAR less salary per year most of the time.

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08-14-2012, 09:35 AM
  #932
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Originally Posted by Dicdonya View Post
Even though what you say is very true, it still is less intelligent for the players to ruin their sport by letting the "representatives" decide how much they are willing to play for, and to lobby for all sorts of other crap that should not even be provided.

If teams cant make enough money, they cease to exist, thus every player on that teams just lost their job, and make 0$. Not to mention the hundreds of people that work for and with that team losing their job as well. The owners, already having other businesses will lose money, be pissed about it, and make more elsewhere. The players, having just lost their most marketable skill, have to go looking for jobs elsewhere at FAR less salary per year most of the time.
except your hypothetical situation doesn't work in the nhl because, nhl contracts are legal until every single penny is paid.

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Old
08-14-2012, 09:50 AM
  #933
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Originally Posted by WantonAbandon View Post
HB just as the owners have a right to not pay a hockey player over x amount of dollars the same player has a right to say he and his colleagues won't play hockey for anything less than x amount of dollars. And they have the right to hire representatives in such matters. Isn't representation what America is supposed to be about? Probably Canada too...

Electricians have this right, so do plumbers, so do teachers, and so on and so forth.
Teachers are a good example of how utterly worthless unions have become. The teachers union is one of the big reason education in this country is in the toilet. Tenure alone goes against everything Capitalism is about. We reward mediocre teachers based on seniority, not performance, and the union keeps us from firing them and rewarding the best teachers who deserve it. My wife works for Safeway (she's a regional HR, not in a union herself) and deals with unions all day, they are absolutely ridiculous.

Walmart is the most successful retail store on earth and a big reason why is because they do not allow unions. It gives them a huge advantage in the market that other stores that are locked into unions cannot compete with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NWShark View Post
Ah.. gotcha! Didn't even think of that. Huggies model..?
Hehe, mostly tv commercials, but some print and a few tv shows and stuff.

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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
Have I seen you in anything?
Uhm, I was in some national commercials here and there, one for Hallmark, one for Denny's... I did some voice-over work in Scrooged and was in a short lived tv show called Midnight Caller.

I honestly don't talk about it a whole lot because while it sounds like fun, it really wasn't, and it tore my family apart. Terrible part of my life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dicdonya View Post
Even though what you say is very true, it still is less intelligent for the players to ruin their sport by letting the "representatives" decide how much they are willing to play for, and to lobby for all sorts of other crap that should not even be provided.

If teams cant make enough money, they cease to exist, thus every player on that teams just lost their job, and make 0$. Not to mention the hundreds of people that work for and with that team losing their job as well. The owners, already having other businesses will lose money, be pissed about it, and make more elsewhere. The players, having just lost their most marketable skill, have to go looking for jobs elsewhere at FAR less salary per year most of the time.
Exactly, the unions are out for the union first and foremost and generally don't take long term goals into account. They force companies to give up large portions of their profits to the workers instead of re-investing them in the business, stunting growth. Those additional wages/benefits could often go to growing a company (creating more jobs), hiring more people, etc.

I think unions served a purpose in this country at one point, but today they do more harm than good. We have things like OSHA and laws that protect workers safety along with minimum wage laws and now even health care laws. I don't mind if unions continue to monitor working conditions and safety, but beyond that I see collective bargaining as anti-capitilism.

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08-14-2012, 12:23 PM
  #934
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Originally Posted by Barrie22 View Post
except your hypothetical situation doesn't work in the nhl because, nhl contracts are legal until every single penny is paid.
Ok fine. Except contracts end and the situation I described still occurs. So even though they may get a couple more years pay, it won't last very long for the majority of players who can't make a team due to contraction.

No matter how much you want to think otherwise, the players are worse off if they ruin their sport by letting the suits due the negotiation for them.

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08-14-2012, 01:11 PM
  #935
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except your hypothetical situation doesn't work in the nhl because, nhl contracts are legal until every single penny is paid.
Not exactly. If a team goes belly up, the contract reverts to the league. The league disperses the contracts of the bankrupt team but does not pay the players who hold the contracts in the interim. If no team picks up the contract, it is not paid.

Contracts are also not paid in the event that the player chooses to breech the terms.

And contracts in the current CBA are not fixed price. Effectively, they are for a fixed percentage of NHL revenue which is worked out through escrow.

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08-14-2012, 03:12 PM
  #936
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Teachers are a good example of how utterly worthless unions have become. The teachers union is one of the big reason education in this country is in the toilet.
The country that is ranked first in education is Finland. I think Sweeden isn't too far behind either. From my understanding their teachers are highly paid and heavily unionized. It is also my understanding that the two countries are the most stable currently in Europe.

If you want to talk about teachers fine: You are talking about a group of people who either have masters degrees or a year away from getting masters degrees. Their has to be something that makes the teaching profession attractive to the prospective work force. Salary isn't it teachers make an average of under 50k a year, so the schools attempt to make the position attractive by providing job security. Since their is a shortage of qualified science and maths teachers apparently tenure doesn't quite cut the mustard. Despite tenure being in existence teaching actually has a pretty high rate of turnover. A lot of people find that the profession doesn't quite meet their expectations or needs. From what my wife tells me a lot of this has to do with the job requiring much more work than one thought. Usually the people that stay in the profession are the ones that actually like teaching.


Now to steer this conversation on topic. Unions are not opposed to the free market. Persons and their peers are free to come to the conclusion that they will not work for anything less than a particular salary. Just as their employers or potential employers have a right to not pay a particular employee anything more than a set amount of dollars. In a free market you are allowed to hire someone to represent you. This is what is transpiring among the owners and players and it is totally in line with the free market.

A strength of a union is dependent on the skill of the members or in terms of the owner how easily his or her workforce can be replaced. Obviously the NHL players hold enormous power. You are talking about highly skilled and nearly irreplaceable labor. Now Safeway which is a union I used to be a part while going to college is fairly weak. Their only real strength is in numbers. As a result the Safeway wage has stagnated for over a decade. The union used to be stronger when the cashiers didn't have a scan system and literally had to memorize every code in the store. The job used to be semi skilled.


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08-14-2012, 03:22 PM
  #937
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Originally Posted by Dicdonya View Post
Even though what you say is very true, it still is less intelligent for the players to ruin their sport by letting the "representatives" decide how much they are willing to play for, and to lobby for all sorts of other crap that should not even be provided.

If teams cant make enough money, they cease to exist, thus every player on that teams just lost their job, and make 0$. Not to mention the hundreds of people that work for and with that team losing their job as well. The owners, already having other businesses will lose money, be pissed about it, and make more elsewhere. The players, having just lost their most marketable skill, have to go looking for jobs elsewhere at FAR less salary per year most of the time.
I think the only point to make is people have a right to be stupid. It doesn't mean the owners have to give in to their demands.

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Old
08-14-2012, 04:00 PM
  #938
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Originally Posted by WantonAbandon View Post
The country that is ranked first in education is Finland. I think Sweeden isn't too far behind either. From my understanding their teachers are highly paid and heavily unionized. It is also my understanding that the two countries are the most stable currently in Europe.

If you want to talk about teachers fine: You are talking about a group of people who either have masters degrees or a year away from getting masters degrees. Their has to be something that makes the teaching profession attractive to the prospective work force. Salary isn't it teachers make an average of under 50k a year, so the schools attempt to make the position attractive by providing job security. Since their is a shortage of qualified science and maths teachers apparently tenure doesn't quite cut the mustard. Despite tenure being in existence teaching actually has a pretty high rate of turnover. A lot of people find that the profession doesn't quite meet their expectations or needs. From what my wife tells me a lot of this has to do with the job requiring much more work than one thought. Usually the people that stay in the profession are the ones that actually like teaching.


Now to steer this conversation on topic. Unions are not opposed to the free market. Persons and their peers are free to come to the conclusion that they will not work for anything less than a particular salary. Just as their employers or potential employers have a right to not pay a particular employee anything more than a set amount of dollars. In a free market you are allowed to hire someone to represent you. This is what is transpiring among the owners and players and it is totally in line with the free market.

A strength of a union is dependent on the skill of the members or in terms of the owner how easily his or her workforce can be replaced. Obviously the NHL players hold enormous power. You are talking about highly skilled and nearly irreplaceable labor. Now Safeway which is a union I used to be a part while going to college is fairly weak. Their only real strength is in numbers. As a result the Safeway wage has stagnated for over a decade. The union used to be stronger when the cashiers didn't have a scan system and literally had to memorize every code in the store. The job used to be semi skilled.
You hit one of the points on the head with science and math as tests and grading in those two subjects generically take more time than they do for other subjects. Teachers are given more time off than other professions in terms of their vacation. However, it is not unusual for a math or science teacher to average 10 hour days when school is in session.

Years ago, benefits as well as security were an attraction for prospective teachers. At one point California had a pension system that far outstripped social security. No longer. Their health care used to be top of the heap as well.

I agree that the market is now being set where people are competing more and more for jobs. You need only look as far as the universities as far as teaching goes. Tenure is no longer achieved at a set number of years. Many university teachers are on year to year contracts and work "part time" with limited or no benefits. It is the way the market is dividing the economic pie.

I agree that the government has come in with some protections, but those protections are generally directed at some of the largest abuses of the past such as health and safety and outright racism. Those protections do not extend to more subtle types of favoritism (eg agism) and other abuses. Ostensibly, unions can bring those more subtle things to light as well as lobby for a larger slice of the economic pie.

I see the current rift between players and owners as a very complex issue. The players are on the receiving end of the rift between owners, rich, poor and in between. Which markets are the moving force behind the owners' proposal? Which markets' interest most closely align with the players' desires? IMO, the owners proposal seems to most strongly favor the large markets although there is some compromise with the smaller markets. The end game is still decidedly in favor of the large markets.

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08-14-2012, 05:22 PM
  #939
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Originally Posted by WantonAbandon View Post
The country that is ranked first in education is Finland. I think Sweeden isn't too far behind either. From my understanding their teachers are highly paid and heavily unionized. It is also my understanding that the two countries are the most stable currently in Europe.

If you want to talk about teachers fine: You are talking about a group of people who either have masters degrees or a year away from getting masters degrees. Their has to be something that makes the teaching profession attractive to the prospective work force. Salary isn't it teachers make an average of under 50k a year, so the schools attempt to make the position attractive by providing job security. Since their is a shortage of qualified science and maths teachers apparently tenure doesn't quite cut the mustard. Despite tenure being in existence teaching actually has a pretty high rate of turnover. A lot of people find that the profession doesn't quite meet their expectations or needs. From what my wife tells me a lot of this has to do with the job requiring much more work than one thought. Usually the people that stay in the profession are the ones that actually like teaching.


Now to steer this conversation on topic. Unions are not opposed to the free market. Persons and their peers are free to come to the conclusion that they will not work for anything less than a particular salary. Just as their employers or potential employers have a right to not pay a particular employee anything more than a set amount of dollars. In a free market you are allowed to hire someone to represent you. This is what is transpiring among the owners and players and it is totally in line with the free market.

A strength of a union is dependent on the skill of the members or in terms of the owner how easily his or her workforce can be replaced. Obviously the NHL players hold enormous power. You are talking about highly skilled and nearly irreplaceable labor. Now Safeway which is a union I used to be a part while going to college is fairly weak. Their only real strength is in numbers. As a result the Safeway wage has stagnated for over a decade. The union used to be stronger when the cashiers didn't have a scan system and literally had to memorize every code in the store. The job used to be semi skilled.
As you like to point out a lot, correlation does not causation. This is why Finland has the best education system in the world today:

http://laurellee.hubpages.com/hub/Be...ng-differently

They do exactly what I'm saying. They test their teachers accurately and fairly. They are hired, fired, and compensated based upon their ability and performance. Finland does most of this testing prior to hiring, but with the same end result. A bad teacher is eventually compensated and/or fired. This is something we do not do in America, mainly because of the stipulations the teachers unions have demanded over the years, and it is the fundamental reason our system is utterly broken.

As I said before, unions are fine as long as they are regulated. European unions really have very little in common with what we are familiar with, here is a good article on it.

http://educationnext.org/a-different...achers-unions/

Unions in America have grown far too powerful and need to be checked. The problem is that we can't convert to a European style system because of our cultural mentality, plus it's somewhat dependent on socialism. The best solution I see is to ban the unions ability to negotiate salaries, hiring and firing. Our system is designed so that if you don't like your employer, you can go work somewhere else. The best companies will get the best employees and thus benefit the most. Let the system work the way it was meant to.

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08-14-2012, 05:44 PM
  #940
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Unions in America have grown far too powerful and need to be checked.
The problem with this is, everywhere there lacks a powerful union the corporation yields far to much power and must be checked. I am a fairly conservative person politically speaking but the balance simple is not there in this country anywhere.


*is this what we are going to do during the lockout? talk politics?

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08-14-2012, 05:57 PM
  #941
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*is this what we are going to do during the lockout? talk politics?
and here I thought this offseason couldn't get any more boring…

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08-14-2012, 06:22 PM
  #942
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I don't much about education in Finland, but when I lived in Germany, the students split at around high school age. One group, the high group went on to a more college-prep type of high school, and the lower group went on to a vocational-type of high school. When they report educational scores for Germany, they are only reporting for those in the higher group (since the curriculum is different), thus their scores are higher.

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08-14-2012, 10:38 PM
  #943
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What a boring offseason. I'm so used to having a big name player traded to us. From trading Seto for Burns and Heatley for Havlat last year to signing Alan Burnish this year. I can't believe they're basically going into next season with the same group of losers that barely made the playoffs.

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08-15-2012, 02:01 AM
  #944
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What a boring offseason. I'm so used to having a big name player traded to us. From trading Seto for Burns and Heatley for Havlat last year to signing Alan Burnish this year. I can't believe they're basically going into next season with the same group of losers that barely made the playoffs.
Hey, there were LOTS of signings for the Sharks .... in Woostah. I'm pretty excited to follow AHL and all our prospects much more so than the Sharks themselves. At least those can surprise me, I know the outcome of the Sharks season before it starts...

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08-15-2012, 10:18 AM
  #945
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What a boring offseason. I'm so used to having a big name player traded to us. From trading Seto for Burns and Heatley for Havlat last year to signing Alan Burnish this year. I can't believe they're basically going into next season with the same group of losers that barely made the playoffs.
Alan Burnish Hope he turns out better than Adam Burish

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08-15-2012, 11:04 AM
  #946
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Hey, there were LOTS of signings for the Sharks .... in Woostah. I'm pretty excited to follow AHL and all our prospects much more so than the Sharks themselves. At least those can surprise me, I know the outcome of the Sharks season before it starts...
Its actually really interesting to me that they restocked woosta to be a bit more competitive. Though they still have that coach.......

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08-15-2012, 12:29 PM
  #947
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Sharks Sign Brandon Mashinter to Two-Way Deal

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08-15-2012, 09:10 PM
  #948
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This thread went OT for a bit, got back on track for a few posts and then went back into politics. How about we leave the BOH/Politics mumbo jumbo in the right place and get back on topic.

Is there any reason why Mash took so long to sign? Did he have options elsewhere?

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08-15-2012, 10:44 PM
  #949
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petrecki still hasnt signed has he?

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08-15-2012, 10:47 PM
  #950
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petrecki still hasnt signed has he?
I don't remember seeing anything about him doing so.

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