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Offseason Armchair GM Thread Part IIX (aka VIII)

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Old
07-26-2012, 11:06 PM
  #151
SJeasy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dicdonya View Post
Careful. Everyone knows the team is just plain slow. Who cares that everyone is markedly faster than the only slow players on our team(zeus,clowe,murray). We just need a team full of Grabners and the championship is ours!



Bingo. Who cares that this core has made the playoffs every year since the lockout, and has been one of the elite top 6 groups for just as long. We have an improving cooch, and a hopefully will not miss 40games havlat. THornton, marleau and pavs always produce, leaving only clowe as a guy we are not sure which one we are getting, the outlook is not horrible.

Our problem is our bottom six and always has been the last several years. Get a few legit bottom sixers to help make our not so legit guys better and we absolutely have a team that can push for a cup.

When zeus, with a bum hip and a possible/probable distraction with his friend dieing, is our bottom six scoring leader that says something. We have the top 6, we need a better bottom six.
They do need speed in the top 6. Overall their top 6 is one of the slowest in the league. Marleau and Havlat fast. JT average. Couture, Pavs, Clowe below average with Clowe flat out slow. It doesn't mean all 6 as fast, but they need at least 3. With only two, the opponent knows who to cover. They need it for breakouts, they need it for entries and they need it for defense. Can't break out unless the winger creates separation. Can't enter on a dump or chip unless the winger beats the dman. That isn't to say that there isn't a strategy issue as they are very repetitive and not successful with their standard strategy when an opponent lines up for it (St. Louis, Phoenix). The opponents play the strong side breakout and the Sharks shun cross ice and only sometimes use middle. It like the Sharks expect to overwhelm every opponent with size. They need the speed and the strategy modification. It would be sufficient to move Clowe down and get a fast tweener. The way around an uptick in speed is to get passing that is excellent which is the old Detroit mode. The puck goes faster than the skates, but old Detroit was content to rewind until they had an opening and just did not miss. Best tape to tape teamwide in the modern era.

I agree with your third line issue. IMO, part of it is both management and the team figuring that JT will take care of the offense if the 3rd and 4th lines just play good defense. It doesn't work that way if you want to win the silver thingy. The lesser guys absolutely must contribute on the scoreboard. I am really waiting to see what happens if they acquire a quality third liner and if he gets Sharks' disease which means no third line scoring where his numbers drop. The Pavs/Wellwood line of a couple of years ago was a pleasant surprise and was unique for the Sharks in the JT era.

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Old
07-26-2012, 11:07 PM
  #152
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Holy cow, there's a hab's fan on the main board saying we would need to offer Burns, Vlasic, and Couture to get an unsigned Subban. I thought I had seen it all... He must be drunk...
I am not sure if there is enough alcohol in the world that would do that to a person.

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07-26-2012, 11:07 PM
  #153
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-Trade Demers for Bourque and Palushaj
-Buyout Zeus
-Irwin as #7 dman
-Sheppard 13th forward

CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER
My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
Rene Bourque ($3.333m) / Joe Thornton ($7.000m) / Joe Pavelski ($4.000m)
Patrick Marleau ($6.900m) / Logan Couture ($2.875m) / Martin Havlat ($5.000m)
Ryane Clowe ($3.625m) / Adam Burish ($1.850m) / T.J. Galiardi ($0.950m)
Aaron Palushaj ($0.600m) / Andrew Desjardins ($0.640m) / Tommy Wingels ($0.775m)
James Sheppard ($0.761m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Dan Boyle ($6.667m) / Brad Stuart ($3.600m)
Brent Burns ($5.760m) / Marc-Edouard Vlasic ($3.100m)
Justin Braun ($1.250m) / Douglas Murray ($2.500m)
Matt Irwin ($0.650m) /
GOALTENDERS
Antti Niemi ($3.800m)
Thomas Greiss ($0.588m)
BUYOUTS
Michal Handzus ($0.833m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $70,200,000; CAP PAYROLL: $67,057,083; BONUSES: $0
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): $3,142,917

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Old
07-26-2012, 11:07 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by Fistfullofbeer View Post
Wouldn't be surprised if his brother ends up being a better player. He doesn't have the speed but has better IQ. Maybe a Pav's lite kind of player?
I dont know much about his brother, or if he is Pav's-like, but I have heard his potential is higher than Victor's

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Old
07-26-2012, 11:17 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by 4thLinePlug View Post
you seem to forget the fact that without parise and suter last year, they were 1st in the west until injuries took their toll.

A healthy minnesota team with parise and Suter is a playoff team.
Unsustainable PDO

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07-26-2012, 11:26 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by thrillermiller89 View Post
Again, some things are wrong with this.

1. Stalberg was shifted throughout the top 3 lines all year. Was he mostly in a top 6 role, yes, but he was moving up and down all year because CHI has no center depth. As a result, they had to switch things up quite a bit.

2. I didnt say anything makes Hammer better. I was just saying you are making him out to be worse than he is. Then I made the statement that CHI might be more willing than you think to trade with us because they were going hard for Suter, thus making Hammer a trade chip.

3. How can you say nobody wanted him? You dont know that. For all you know, they missed out on Suter so they've decided to keep Hammer until a better Dman can be obtained.
Why would we give Chicago a #1 dman for a 3rd liner and a 3rd line dman. Hammer would be a 3rd pairing dman here. I rather play Murray as the 3rd pairing dman for 1mil cheaper and more physical.

Explain why we would do that trade.

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07-26-2012, 11:27 PM
  #157
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All the gloom and doom sigh

You nay sayers do realize that almost half the sharks losses came from three teams right?

Blues, Ducks, and Yotes.

Yes the Sharks have a shot at the shinny thing.

They just need a to improve the PK and get a third line that can push the play and they have just as good of a shot as anyone else

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Old
07-26-2012, 11:28 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by WantonAbandon View Post
Yes the Sharks have a shot at the shinny thing.
... ???

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07-26-2012, 11:28 PM
  #159
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Beside the Yotes, Ducks, and Blues the only other teams in the west the Sharks didn't post a winning record against were the Nucks and the Wild

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Old
07-26-2012, 11:29 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by WantonAbandon View Post
Unsustainable PDO
Gotta consider the competition moving forward. They're the only Western Conference team to get better… and drastically so.

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Old
07-26-2012, 11:34 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by SactoShark View Post
Gotta consider the competition moving forward. They're the only Western Conference team to get better… and drastically so.
How much so. How many more goals do you think they will score and how many more goals do you think they will prevent?

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Old
07-26-2012, 11:35 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
Holy cow, there's a hab's fan on the main board saying we would need to offer Burns, Vlasic, and Couture to get an unsigned Subban. I thought I had seen it all... He must be drunk...
If it was Burns, Vlasic, OR Couture, it almost sounds rational. It is amazing how homer some fans can be.

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Old
07-26-2012, 11:36 PM
  #163
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Best case scenario I see Minny getting 20 more gf /20 less ga. This would still be an end result of less GF than GA and likely result in Minny missing the POs

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Old
07-26-2012, 11:37 PM
  #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hatrick Marleau View Post
Why would we give Chicago a #1 dman for a 3rd liner and a 3rd line dman. Hammer would be a 3rd pairing dman here. I rather play Murray as the 3rd pairing dman for 1mil cheaper and more physical.

Explain why we would do that trade.
Again, it's all about perspective. You see them as a 3rd line forward, and a 3rd pairing dman. I see them as a 2nd line forward and a 2nd pairing dman.

And as far as explaining why it might make sense to do that trade, the reason is that we get younger and deeper at both positions while adding youth, speed, and physicality at the Wing. Plus we shed Handzus and get a draft pick as well. In addition, according to the line up I put together on page 6, it allows us the cap flexibility to sign Doan.

Also, please visit the post on page 6 where I show both of Stalberg's and Hammer's stats from last year. They are from common stat categories (goals, points, plus/minus, hits, blocked shots----nothing fancy), but they reflect numbers that dont translate to a "3rd line forward and 3rd pairing defenseman"

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07-26-2012, 11:39 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
They do need speed in the top 6. Overall their top 6 is one of the slowest in the league. Marleau and Havlat fast. JT average. Couture, Pavs, Clowe below average with Clowe flat out slow. It doesn't mean all 6 as fast, but they need at least 3. With only two, the opponent knows who to cover. They need it for breakouts, they need it for entries and they need it for defense. Can't break out unless the winger creates separation. Can't enter on a dump or chip unless the winger beats the dman. That isn't to say that there isn't a strategy issue as they are very repetitive and not successful with their standard strategy when an opponent lines up for it (St. Louis, Phoenix). The opponents play the strong side breakout and the Sharks shun cross ice and only sometimes use middle. It like the Sharks expect to overwhelm every opponent with size. They need the speed and the strategy modification. It would be sufficient to move Clowe down and get a fast tweener. The way around an uptick in speed is to get passing that is excellent which is the old Detroit mode. The puck goes faster than the skates, but old Detroit was content to rewind until they had an opening and just did not miss. Best tape to tape teamwide in the modern era.
I completely respect your opinion.

I would love for you to explain how LA has a faster top six than us? By the way, I realize you never said they were, just that if they can win a cup, and dont appear faster than us, why is everyone obsessed with speed.

In my mind they do not, and if they do its by the smallest of margins. Marleau trumps anyone they have. Havlat is atleast as fast as their second fastest player. Thornton actually skating at top speed is not average at all, and would be sure to keep up with any of williams/richards/brown(brown maybe not as much). Pavs and Cooch would be slightly slower then some of their mid speed guys but faster or equal to penner. Kopitar is balls slow, and even though faster than clowe, not faster than any of our top six.

Add on the fact that we beat la 4 of six games, did not lose to, or had a losing record against, teams like Pit, Phi, Tor, Colo etc who are very fast, and some of them young, teams. I fail even more to understand everyones obsession with speed.

By the way I dont think you have this obsession, I just respect your discussion style and wish to hear your response.

Quote:
I agree with your third line issue. IMO, part of it is both management and the team figuring that JT will take care of the offense if the 3rd and 4th lines just play good defense. It doesn't work that way if you want to win the silver thingy. The lesser guys absolutely must contribute on the scoreboard. I am really waiting to see what happens if they acquire a quality third liner and if he gets Sharks' disease which means no third line scoring where his numbers drop. The Pavs/Wellwood line of a couple of years ago was a pleasant surprise and was unique for the Sharks in the JT era.
This is so true it hurts.

We need three scoring lines, we dont need two shutdown/energy/useless lines as our bottom six. Our top six ARE the shutdown lines, we need scoring from our bottom guys.

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07-26-2012, 11:41 PM
  #166
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Originally Posted by WantonAbandon View Post
How much so. How many more goals do you think they will score and how many more goals do you think they will prevent?
It's not quantifiable.

All I know about hockey, is thems is two players that make everyone around them better.

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07-26-2012, 11:44 PM
  #167
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Originally Posted by SactoShark View Post
It's not quantifiable.

All I know about hockey, is thems is two players that make everyone around them better.
I'm not even convinced about this. It is quantifiable and predictable. GF and GA. Most important stats in determining whether or not a team makes the playoffs. You just have to think of their value over a replacement player. I predicted that at best Paraise and Suter would create a forty goal positive differential which is insane and even that probably wouldn't be enough to get Minny into the playoffs.


Last edited by WantonAbandon: 07-26-2012 at 11:50 PM.
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07-26-2012, 11:52 PM
  #168
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Originally Posted by WantonAbandon View Post
Best case scenario I see Minny getting 20 more gf /20 less ga. This would still be an end result of less GF than GA and likely result in Minny missing the POs
I dont know if I think minny will make the playoffs this year, but, I think their GA will go down more than their GF with go up. They get Koivu back, and Parise and Suter are great at defense, with suter being their best at it. So more like +20gf/-30ga.

They were a good team early on and even though they most likely would not have kept up the pace they were on, there is no way, without the injuries they sustained, they would have fallen that far off the cliff. You cant discount how much losing your best player in Koivu, can destroy team chemistry and once it was gone, snowballed like crazy.

Once again Im not saying they are a lock for the playoffs, but parise and suter, with Koivu back, and even close to the goaltending they were getting at the beggining of the year, they have a pretty legit shot to make the playoffs.

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07-26-2012, 11:53 PM
  #169
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Additional speed in the top six isn't as necessary as having that one extra 20 goal scorer like seto in the top six.

We also can't make a lot of judgements on our top six until Havlat is around for 60+ games.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
They do need speed in the top 6. Overall their top 6 is one of the slowest in the league. Marleau and Havlat fast. JT average. Couture, Pavs, Clowe below average with Clowe flat out slow. It doesn't mean all 6 as fast, but they need at least 3. With only two, the opponent knows who to cover. They need it for breakouts, they need it for entries and they need it for defense. Can't break out unless the winger creates separation. Can't enter on a dump or chip unless the winger beats the dman. That isn't to say that there isn't a strategy issue as they are very repetitive and not successful with their standard strategy when an opponent lines up for it (St. Louis, Phoenix). The opponents play the strong side breakout and the Sharks shun cross ice and only sometimes use middle. It like the Sharks expect to overwhelm every opponent with size. They need the speed and the strategy modification. It would be sufficient to move Clowe down and get a fast tweener. The way around an uptick in speed is to get passing that is excellent which is the old Detroit mode. The puck goes faster than the skates, but old Detroit was content to rewind until they had an opening and just did not miss. Best tape to tape teamwide in the modern era.

I agree with your third line issue. IMO, part of it is both management and the team figuring that JT will take care of the offense if the 3rd and 4th lines just play good defense. It doesn't work that way if you want to win the silver thingy. The lesser guys absolutely must contribute on the scoreboard. I am really waiting to see what happens if they acquire a quality third liner and if he gets Sharks' disease which means no third line scoring where his numbers drop. The Pavs/Wellwood line of a couple of years ago was a pleasant surprise and was unique for the Sharks in the JT era.

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Old
07-26-2012, 11:54 PM
  #170
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I dont know if I think minny will make the playoffs this year, but, I think their GA will go down more than their GF with go up. They get Koivu back, and Parise and Suter are great at defense, with suter being their best at it. So more like +20gf/-30ga.

They were a good team early on and even though they most likely would not have kept up the pace they were on, there is no way, without the injuries they sustained, they would have fallen that far off the cliff. You cant discount how much losing your best player in Koivu, can destroy team chemistry and once it was gone, snowballed like crazy.

Once again Im not saying they are a lock for the playoffs, but parise and suter, with Koivu back, and even close to the goaltending they were getting at the beggining of the year, they have a pretty legit shot to make the playoffs.
So you think they would create a 50 goal differential.... I thought 40 was a ridiculous ceiling. Even with 50 they are still likely to miss the playoffs. They just sucked that much

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07-26-2012, 11:56 PM
  #171
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Originally Posted by WantonAbandon View Post
I'm not even convinced about this. It is quantifiable and predictable. GF and GA. Most important stats in determining whether or not a team makes the playoffs. You just have to think of their value over a replacement player.
Replacement? They're acquired free agents. Additions.

Anyway, my only point was that the Wild are the only WC team to get better (save for unknown offseason development). I think they're a marginal playoff team now.

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07-26-2012, 11:59 PM
  #172
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Originally Posted by SactoShark View Post
Replacement? They're acquired free agents. Additions.

Anyway, my only point was that the Wild are the only WC team to get better (save for unknown offseason development). I think they're a marginal playoff team now.
Yes replacement player... its known as VORP in baseball or sort of like RelCorsi in hockey. I'm just thinking about goals and goals allowed rather than possession. Its how much better they would do than another player the Wild would have used in their minutes who is on their roster.

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07-27-2012, 12:08 AM
  #173
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Replacement? They're acquired free agents. Additions.
.
Those "additions" will be displacing players from last years team. Thus, replacement.

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07-27-2012, 12:08 AM
  #174
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Minnesota will only get better when they add in those top prospects in these next couple years. Parise, Suter (and the underrated Gilbert trade) really improved their team.

Re: Mtl/Sj trade thread
Even Couture alone for Subban is debatable. Ridiculous offer to ask for Burns also.

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07-27-2012, 12:08 AM
  #175
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Originally Posted by WantonAbandon View Post
So you think they would create a 50 goal differential.... I thought 40 was a ridiculous ceiling. Even with 50 they are still likely to miss the playoffs. They just sucked that much
I realized after I posted this would be your response. Im sorry I used your diffential as my starting point, it was not my main point. My main point was that they gained more from a defensive standpoint, with those two guys, than they did from an offensive standpoint.

Once again you seem to discount the fact they lost the linchpin of their team, they have a pretty good top six with heatley, seto, parise, koivu, brodziak and cullen. Suter really helps their defense out and their goaltending is not bad. Their third line is respectable as well with clutterbuck on it. They are not as bad a team as you seem to think they are.

Imagine thornton missing 50 games this year. Havlat got hurt and we barely made the playoffs, he is not even our best player by a long shot, losing a thornton(koivu) who is the main offensive leader of the team will certainly help cause the kind of dropoff they had.

Either way as I said in my post, Im not saying they WILL make the playoffs, but that they certainly could with what they got.

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