HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Montreal Canadiens
Notices

The case for a 1-year surgical tank for the Habs

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
01-14-2013, 01:22 PM
  #876
disturbedraven
Lets rock
 
disturbedraven's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Peterborough
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,052
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mario Lemieux fan 66 View Post
I am a Habs fan since 1996 and last year was the best year for me as a Habs fan. For the first time, the Habs did the first step in order to get better. I hope that this year will be as successful than last year was.

The 2013 draft is the most important event for the Habs in the last 15 years. With a great draft the Habs could rapidly became a legit Stanley cup contender for the next 8 years.
Man, I give you all the credit in the world. You came in at a gloomy time for the team. Kudos for sticking through it

disturbedraven is offline  
Old
01-14-2013, 02:29 PM
  #877
yianik
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,888
vCash: 500
Its fun trying to figure out a grand plan a GM might have and so I have thought about it with our Habs and MB. I think he has paid careful attention to contracts and development of younger guys into the future and I think he is shooting for having a good team in 2 years and then contending for some years after that. With what we have in place and with what is in the pipeline this is not an unrealistic plan.
Coaches and players need to go out and try to win every game, even though you dont. The GM is the one with the longer term view and sure, if you hit a point where its clear the team wont or is unlikely to make the play-offs then okay, move players for younger guys or a player who fits longer term or for picks if that will help the future.

yianik is offline  
Old
01-14-2013, 03:01 PM
  #878
Turianel
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 82
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by yianik View Post
Its fun trying to figure out a grand plan a GM might have and so I have thought about it with our Habs and MB. I think he has paid careful attention to contracts and development of younger guys into the future and I think he is shooting for having a good team in 2 years and then contending for some years after that. With what we have in place and with what is in the pipeline this is not an unrealistic plan.
Coaches and players need to go out and try to win every game, even though you dont. The GM is the one with the longer term view and sure, if you hit a point where its clear the team wont or is unlikely to make the play-offs then okay, move players for younger guys or a player who fits longer term or for picks if that will help the future.
Same opinion! Try to win, to everything to win. If don't make the playoff, sell some expendables for futur potential.

Turianel is offline  
Old
01-14-2013, 03:44 PM
  #879
Teufelsdreck
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 14,181
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwolf View Post
Really? We can't say that??
Of course you can SAY anything you want about the motives of M. Gauthier. It's not against the law, and attempting to suppress the contrary thoughts of any poster would be as futile as inhibiting a donkey from braying.

Teufelsdreck is offline  
Old
01-14-2013, 04:06 PM
  #880
habsfanatics
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 3,647
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Let's say we traded Plekanec to Chicago for Terevainen, hypothetically.

What are the odds Teevainen will ever be better than Plekanec is right now? Maybe 25%, I don't know the correct odds, go ask an expert if you think it matters here.

However, the odds are much higher than 25% that Tervainen 2015-2018 will be better than Plekanec 2015-2018. That's what matters, because that's our contention window. Plekanec may be a good player in 2012-2014, but that is worthless to us, as we're not competing for the cup un that period.

Another example might be Andrei Markov to Washington for Filip Forsberg.

Finally, the reason picks are rarely traded is that teams with good players don't want to tank. Pittsburgh got a high pick for Jordan Staal and I'm sure they could have done so at any time in 2011 and in 2010 etc, but they wanted to keep him. Most teams want to keep their great players. Surgical tanking would be a novel strategy, as such it cannot be refuted by saying it hasn't been done before. "It hasn't been done before" is never a valid argument against innovation.
I can't get on board with what you're saying, sry. Who says our contention window is any better from 2015-2018, you, because you say so?

As far as Terevainen's odds of being better than pleks right now, as close to zero as you can get. As far as down the road, not much higher.

habsfanatics is offline  
Old
01-14-2013, 05:09 PM
  #881
Ginu
Registered User
 
Ginu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 3,685
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
I feel the same way. I like having Galchenyuk, but I know that Gretzky needed Messier, that Toews needed Kane, that Kopitar needed Brown, that Crosby needed Malkin and that Lemieux needed Jagr. Never mind the rest of those deep lineups.

If we get any of the top-5 players this year, or an equivalent player through trade, I think we're set. We can then focus on another difficult task: the rest of the team. Let's not trivialize that, nailing a good bottom nine forwards and bottom 4 dmen is very hard, but at least it can be done without top-5 picks. We can do it through good trades.and good UFA signings and good 2nd round draft picks

Do you think that Pittsburgh might be interested in Eric Cole?
I'm hoping that Collberg is that guy for Galchenyuk. Maybe we already have that guy in Pacioretty (many would have him in the top 5 in a redraft of the 2007 draft).

The way I see it this year is, the trade deadline is late this year- April 5th. The draft is two months later. Try to sell off as many vets / unneeded players as you can for draft picks for two months of heartache. You know that come July 1, a lot of teams are going to try to get under the cap. That's the time to pick up a few steals and re-stack.

The questions I would ask myself are these:
1) Are Beaulieu and Tinordi ready for the jump? Does this make Kaberle and Markov expendable?
2) What about Leblanc and Gallagher? Does this make Gionta expendable?
3) Are Galchenyuk and Eller ready for the top 2 lines? What does this mean for Plekanec / Desharnais?
4) Will a team offer a big package for Cole at the trade deadline?

There are at least two first rounders in there and a few second rounders, not to mention other young players / prospects coming back. Add that to our first rounder and 3 second rounders and you have at least 8 draft picks in the first 60 picks of the 2013 draft.

It's cost-benefit analysis. If any year you were going to have a sell off it would be this one with the late trade deadline and the strength of this draft.

Ginu is offline  
Old
01-14-2013, 05:20 PM
  #882
Captain Saku
Registered User
 
Captain Saku's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Montreal
Posts: 10,752
vCash: 500
For me it's simple. Playoffs or bottom 5. I would hate to finish anywhere between 9th and 12th in the east. I the team have a ba start and 20 games into the season and is bottom 3 in the east an you still want the team to win then you simply dont want this team to succeed. That being said, Michel Therrien was always successful in his 1st year with a new team so I expect us to finish between 7th and 10th.

Captain Saku is offline  
Old
01-14-2013, 05:35 PM
  #883
LeMAD
Registered User
 
LeMAD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Montreal
Posts: 4,343
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginu View Post
1) Are Beaulieu and Tinordi ready for the jump? Does this make Kaberle and Markov expendable?
2) What about Leblanc and Gallagher? Does this make Gionta expendable?
3) Are Galchenyuk and Eller ready for the top 2 lines? What does this mean for Plekanec / Desharnais?
4) Will a team offer a big package for Cole at the trade deadline?
The young guys you listed won't have the impact you hope they can have until a few years, if ever.

I'm not against trading veterans, but only if we get a great return for them. Because you don't build a good team by trading you best players, even if those best players aren't all-stars.

Trading guys like Plekanec, Gionta and Desharnais would pretty mean we will suck for another 5 years at least. It might be worth it in the long run (more than five years).

But for sure, young players don't make veterans expandable.

LeMAD is offline  
Old
01-14-2013, 05:42 PM
  #884
habsfanatics
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 3,647
vCash: 500
I'm all for trading expiring vets for a meaningful return if we're out of contention. The problem with doing so to all the vets early and prematurely is that you'll never have enough youth in the system to replace them.

You need a mix of vets and youngsters to win. Trading pleks and others for futures just kicks the can further down the road with no guarantee of success. When Gio's contract is about to expire, or markov's, you can deal them, or hope they sign cheap and retire here. We should be augmenting our best players with more good players. A team full of youth isn't going anywheres, but we need to be a little more pragmatic when it comes to maximizing value, it should almost be treated like a video game where you never lose talent for nothing if it can be avoided.

Trading pleks for a mystery ball that we hope will someday be as good as pleks isn't helpful. Pleks, markov (if healthy), gionta can be valuable contributors to a good team still.

habsfanatics is offline  
Old
01-14-2013, 08:47 PM
  #885
Lafleurs Guy
Registered User
 
Lafleurs Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 20,577
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turianel View Post
I would rather loss be trying hard than planning on losing (surgical tank). There is a world of difference between the two.

I'm not upset at all with Price, Pach, subban, gal. Lets habs work on there assets while trying to win, what over the odds! Win logic bring winner! and wins. "C'est le mental"
Nobody is saying that we should try to lose or that the team shouldn't play hard...

Quote:
Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
I can't get on board with what you're saying, sry. Who says our contention window is any better from 2015-2018, you, because you say so?
No because it's common sense. We aren't contenders now and we proved that last year. Might as well build for the future where we might actually be able to win.
Quote:
Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
As far as Terevainen's odds of being better than pleks right now, as close to zero as you can get. As far as down the road, not much higher.
I'd rather gamble on a player that our scouting (which is the best in the league) backs then stick with a guy who's never going to win.

If we deal away Markov for example we probably won't get a guy who was as good as he was in his prime. But so what? We can still get a good young player to build with who will be better in the future than Markov is.

Years ago I said the same thing about dealing Koivu for a then unproven Bobby Ryan. Folks said Ryan would never be as good as Saku... well, who would you rather have now?

Quote:
Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
I'm all for trading expiring vets for a meaningful return if we're out of contention. The problem with doing so to all the vets early and prematurely is that you'll never have enough youth in the system to replace them.

You need a mix of vets and youngsters to win. Trading pleks and others for futures just kicks the can further down the road with no guarantee of success.
Is there a guarantee of success now? No right? In fact if there's any guarantee it's that we aren't going to win anything right now.

So I don't see what we have to lose here.



Quote:
Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
When Gio's contract is about to expire, or markov's, you can deal them, or hope they sign cheap and retire here.
Why would we want them to retire here? Total waste of a couple of assets. And we don't need to deal ALL the vets away. But if the offers are there, TAKE them and go.

Quote:
Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
We should be augmenting our best players with more good players. A team full of youth isn't going anywheres,
Other teams filled with youth eventually won cups. It just takes patience. Again, we're not going to win anything now anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
but we need to be a little more pragmatic when it comes to maximizing value, it should almost be treated like a video game where you never lose talent for nothing if it can be avoided.

Trading pleks for a mystery ball that we hope will someday be as good as pleks isn't helpful. Pleks, markov (if healthy), gionta can be valuable contributors to a good team still.
1st round picks backed by our scouting group are not a bunch of ""mystery balls." That's absolutely silly to try to portray it that way. We've got a good record of getting good players from our scouting group and the more we give them the better off we'll be.

Pleks is not Gretzky either. Dealing him away isn't going to set this franchise back to the stone age any more than letting Koivu leave did. We're not going to win with those guys but they can help contending teams. But to get value out of them we need to trade them now while they still have some good value.

The pick we got for Rivet turned into MaxPac. Was that a mystery ball too? Geez man, some of the arguments you guys bring up are just shockingly bad. How is it that you still don't get it? After two decades of mediocrity... after watching Koivu and company lead us nowhere and wasting all those assets you still don't get it. Three of our top four players were gotten via a rebuild method and yet you still don't get it. We land a guy that people are actually excited about because he seems to actually have some elite offensive talent but you still don't get it.

What does it take for you guys to see the light?

Lafleurs Guy is offline  
Old
01-14-2013, 09:16 PM
  #886
Rutabaga
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Middle of Nowhere
Country: France
Posts: 979
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post

If we deal away Markov for example we probably won't get a guy who was as good as he was in his prime. But so what? We can still get a good young player to build with who will be better in the future than Markov is.
If the pick/prospect you got wont be better than the player you deal him for, whats the point of such a deal ?
Sure, you got Galchenyuk, but if the supporting cast is worse than it was when you dealt those veterans, the team is not going to be improved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Years ago I said the same thing about dealing Koivu for a then unproven Bobby Ryan. Folks said Ryan would never be as good as Saku... well, who would you rather have now?

The pick we got for Rivet turned into MaxPac. Was that a mystery ball too?
Thats the problem right there.
You, and only you, think that Ryan would have been traded for Koivu.
I am pretty sure that this was next to impossible.

And you have to consider the luck in Pacioretty's case.
Do you remember that the previous year, we had 3 picks in the Top-60 and that no one did meet the expectations ? Timmins is great, but even with him, its far from being a safe thing.

Rutabaga is offline  
Old
01-14-2013, 09:27 PM
  #887
SouthernHab
Registered User
 
SouthernHab's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: USA
Country: United States
Posts: 9,867
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
The losers are the people who dream for 8th place.
You are living the myth.

The Habs did not tank last year. They sucked at hockey because they had an idiot coach who was finally and thankfully fired.

They sucked at hockey because they had a GM who was incapable of building a hockey team to play in the "modern" NHL.

The legacy of inept management (think Boivin) has people like you actually believing in the myth of tanking.

Instead, wake up to reality and understand that the Montreal Canadiens have been a franchise (led by the marketing whiz Pierre Boivin) that placed its priorities on selling the brand and marketing instead of what the Montreal Canadiens were at one time.......a hockey franchise that excelled.

Boivin is gone. So are the lackeys who were a disgrace to this organization. Finally, after so many years, Geoff Molson has come to the realization that the reason the Canadiens made so much money was for the hockey that they played, not the marketing of the name.

So dream on about the myth of tanking. For that is all that it is. It is your inability to come to the realization that this team has been woefully left behind by franchises with brilliant hockey minds running their organizations. And it is your inability to admit the failure that Gainey and Gauthier were as GMs.


Last edited by overlords: 01-14-2013 at 11:09 PM.
SouthernHab is offline  
Old
01-14-2013, 09:40 PM
  #888
Lafleurs Guy
Registered User
 
Lafleurs Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 20,577
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rutabaga View Post
If the pick/prospect you got wont be better than the player you deal him for, whats the point of such a deal ?
The point is that even if the player isn't as good as Markov was in his prime, he's going to be better in two or three years than Markov will be as Markov gets older. You get a player at the start of his career rather than at the end.

That's the point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rutabaga View Post
Sure, you got Galchenyuk, but if the supporting cast is worse than it was when you dealt those veterans, the team is not going to be improved.
In the short term you're probably right. You'll probably sink in the standings. (Doesn't matter though because we won't win anything now anyway.)

But you'll be better off in the long run.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rutabaga View Post
Thats the problem right there.
You, and only you, think that Ryan would have been traded for Koivu.
I am pretty sure that this was next to impossible.
The Ducks were in the hunt for the cup. Their best forward (Selanne) was good friends with Koivu and he had a cheap contract. Plus we had Sheldon Souray who was on fire and at the end of his contract. So we could've packaged them together but instead we went for 8th...

Burke said he wouldn't do a rental for Ryan but if you do Koivu and Souray? We probably could've gotten Ryan +++. Instead we kept Souray, chased 8th, lost him for nothing and missed the playoffs anyway. Then three years later Koivu left for nothing and went to... the Ducks. Meanwhile Ryan is now a 30 goal scorer...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rutabaga View Post
And you have to consider the luck in Pacioretty's case.
Do you remember that the previous year, we had 3 picks in the Top-60 and that no one did meet the expectations ? Timmins is great, but even with him, its far from being a safe thing.
Trading for a 1st is not luck. It's smart. And we have the best scouting in the league.

It's shocking that we don't do this more often...
Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
You are living the myth.

The Habs did not tank last year. They sucked at hockey because they had an idiot coach who was finally and thankfully fired.

They sucked at hockey because they had a GM who was incapable of building a hockey team to play in the "modern" NHL.

The legacy of inept management (think Boivin) has people like you actually believing in the myth of tanking.
He's not saying that we should deliberately lose. You are making straw man arguments and get no points for this. None.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Instead, wake up to reality and understand that the Montreal Canadiens have been a franchise (led by the marketing whiz Pierre Boivin) that placed its priorities on selling the brand and marketing instead of what the Montreal Canadiens were at one time.......a hockey franchise that excelled.

Boivin is gone. So are the lackeys who were a disgrace to this organization. Finally, after so many years, Geoff Molson has come to the realization that the reason the Canadiens made so much money was for the hockey that they played, not the marketing of the name.

So dream on about the myth of tanking. For that is all that it is. It is your inability to come to the realization that this team has been woefully left behind by franchises with brilliant hockey minds running their organizations. And it is your inability to admit the failure that Gainey and Gauthier were as GMs.

You are still an embarrassment.
Making straw man arguments and then saying that the other guy is an embarrassment?

Right back at you man. Come up with some REAL arguments and then maybe we'll listen to you. All you're coming up with is silliness about losing on purpose which nobody is suggesting.

Lafleurs Guy is offline  
Old
01-14-2013, 09:45 PM
  #889
SouthernHab
Registered User
 
SouthernHab's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: USA
Country: United States
Posts: 9,867
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
The point is that even if the player isn't as good as Markov was in his prime, he's going to be better in two or three years as Markov gets older. You get a player at the start of his career rather than at the end.

That's the point.

In the short term you're probably right. You'll probably sink in the standings.

But you'll be better off in the long run.



The Ducks were in the hunt for the cup. Their best forward (Selanne) was good friends with Koivu and he had a cheap contract. Plus we had Sheldon Souray who was on fire and at the end of his contract. So we could've packaged them together but instead we went for 8th...

Burke said he wouldn't do a rental for Ryan but if you do Koivu and Souray? We probably could've gotten Ryan +++. Instead we kept Souray, chased 8th, lost him for nothing and missed the playoffs anyway. Then three years later Koivu left for nothing and went to... the Ducks.

Trading for a 1st is not luck. It's smart. And we have the best scouting in the league.

It's shocking that we don't do this more often...

He's not saying that we should deliberately lose. You are making straw man arguments and get no points for this. None.

Making straw man arguments and then saying that the other guy is an embarrassment?

Right back at you man. Come up with some REAL arguments and then maybe we'll listen to you. All you're coming up with is silliness about losing on purpose which nobody is suggesting.
What does tanking mean?

Does the title of the thread include the words One year surgical tank?

Maybe the more appropriate title of the thread should be the longing for a President, a GM, a coach who has vision and the ability to ensure that players drafted are developed properly. And of course the ability of the GM to manage assets properly.

Rename the thread and talk about what was lacking in Montreal and I am on board with changing the failures of the past.

But call it a surgical one year tank? Embarrassing.

SouthernHab is offline  
Old
01-14-2013, 09:49 PM
  #890
Lafleurs Guy
Registered User
 
Lafleurs Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 20,577
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
What does tanking mean?

Does the title of the thread include the words One year surgical tank?

Maybe the more appropriate title of the thread should be the longing for a President, a GM, a coach who has vision and the ability to ensure that players drafted are developed properly. And of course the ability of the GM to manage assets properly.

Rename the thread and talk about what was lacking in Montreal and I am on board with changing the failures of the past.

But call it a surgical one year tank? Embarrassing.
Tanking does not exist. The poster that you were responding to understands this and has clearly laid out the case for rebuilding. Tanking is illegal and the whole term of 'tanking' should be thrown in the river. Rebuilding on the other hand makes perfect sense. Teams have done this in the past and it makes sense.

The real question is if this season should be sacrificed for a rebuild and I'd say it's going to be sacrificed anyway so we might as well rebuild and get something out of it.

Lafleurs Guy is offline  
Old
01-14-2013, 10:00 PM
  #891
SouthernHab
Registered User
 
SouthernHab's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: USA
Country: United States
Posts: 9,867
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Tanking does not exist. The poster that you were responding to understands this and has clearly laid out the case for rebuilding. Tanking is illegal and the whole term of 'tanking' should be thrown in the river. Rebuilding on the other hand makes perfect sense. Teams have done this in the past and it makes sense.

The real question is if this season should be sacrificed for a rebuild and I'd say it's going to be sacrificed anyway so we might as well rebuild and get something out of it.
Maybe you should offer up a suggestion regarding the name of this thread then.

You sure about this season being sacrificed? You have seen emotionless coaching of the Habs since '06 and have forgotten how important coaching is with regard to results.

Just look at what the Kings did last season when they changed coaches and coaching philosophy. Coaches matter.

SouthernHab is offline  
Old
01-14-2013, 10:09 PM
  #892
Lafleurs Guy
Registered User
 
Lafleurs Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 20,577
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Maybe you should offer up a suggestion regarding the name of this thread then.
The thread is poorly named. I agree it's terrible and all these threads use the term 'tank'... they shouldn't. I don't know what the OP wrote because this thread is so old, but DA has been right on the money with his arguments.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
You sure about this season being sacrificed? You have seen emotionless coaching of the Habs since '06 and have forgotten how important coaching is with regard to results.
Dude, we're a bubble playoff team at best. Go look on the main forum, we're being compared to the Leafs and non-Leaf fans have them being better than us except for the goaltending.

Before you laugh they have Lupul, Kessel, Grabs... their forwards are actually better than ours. Neither club has a number one center though...

We aren't going to win anything. Accept it.

Take the logo off the team and look at the lineup objectively. Is it a cup caliber team? Does it stack up with Boston, NY, Vancouver, Philly, LA or Pittsburgh?

Look we're good enough to maybe make the playoffs. We might be able to pull an upset or even two. But we're not winning a cup and there's a very high probability of us missing the playoffs altogether.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Just look at what the Kings did last season when they changed coaches and coaching philosophy. Coaches matter.
They've got tons of legit stars over there. Kopitar, Doughty, Quick ++++

They have better forwards by miles and their goaltending is every bit as good as ours is (much better actually if you go by last season.) They were seen as contenders last year and were a huge dissapointment in the first half. Then they bounced back and nobody could stop them. We're not in their league. Kopitar is among the very best forwards in the league and we don't have anyone even close to him.

Yes, we could win a cup in theory. Price could get super hot and everything could go right. You can beat an ace pair with a 7-2 in poker too and go all in... but it's a stupid bet.

That's what we do every year. We go all in with a 7-2 or 7-3. Our chip stack doesn't grow and we have fewer and fewer chances of winning the tournament. It's all been short term thinking and it's killed us.

Lafleurs Guy is offline  
Old
01-14-2013, 10:29 PM
  #893
DAChampion
Registered User
 
DAChampion's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Canberra, Australia
Country: Australia
Posts: 6,435
vCash: 500
The title of the thread is half-cute, half-serious.

The "1 year surgical" is the serious part. The point is that we have the opportunity to complete in 2 years what most teams take many more years to do. I list my arguments why that is, but:
- our vets like Cole, Plekanec, Markov still have decent value.
- Soon, our young prospects like Galchenyuk will make us too good to finish bottom 5.
- The 2013 draft rocks, it is a great year to stockpile picks.
It's high precision, therefore it's surgical. It's not like what other teams do when they realize they suck at the trade deadline, and end up trading whoever isn't injured at the last minute, if their fanbases are lucky.

The "tank" part is the cute part. Some of you are seriously lacking a sense of humour, you need to be able to laugh at yourself in life. Yes we should be excited when the team excels, like in 2007-08. But the team can't excel all the time, and when a clusterfudge happens like last year, and Brad Staubitz becomes the most exciting player on the team, you should take it in stride. Buy some tickets and some jerseys and drink some beer over the games either way.

If you want to call it tanking / transition / development / evaluation / rebuilding, whatever, call it what you want, the difference is semantics to me, and part of the reason I'm not going into politics is that I'm not into the cult of the euphemism. The underlying point is the same, players and coaches need to give 100% every game, whereas management needs to prioritize the future over the present because we have no present.

DAChampion is online now  
Old
01-14-2013, 10:35 PM
  #894
haburger
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,158
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
You are living the myth.

The Habs did not tank last year. They sucked at hockey because they had an idiot coach who was finally and thankfully fired.

They sucked at hockey because they had a GM who was incapable of building a hockey team to play in the "modern" NHL.

The legacy of inept management (think Boivin) has people like you actually believing in the myth of tanking.

Instead, wake up to reality and understand that the Montreal Canadiens have been a franchise (led by the marketing whiz Pierre Boivin) that placed its priorities on selling the brand and marketing instead of what the Montreal Canadiens were at one time.......a hockey franchise that excelled.

Boivin is gone. So are the lackeys who were a disgrace to this organization. Finally, after so many years, Geoff Molson has come to the realization that the reason the Canadiens made so much money was for the hockey that they played, not the marketing of the name.

So dream on about the myth of tanking. For that is all that it is. It is your inability to come to the realization that this team has been woefully left behind by franchises with brilliant hockey minds running their organizations. And it is your inability to admit the failure that Gainey and Gauthier were as GMs.

You are still an embarrassment.
well said southernhab!!

haburger is offline  
Old
01-14-2013, 10:37 PM
  #895
haburger
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,158
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
The title of the thread is half-cute, half-serious.

The "1 year surgical" is the serious part. The point is that we have the opportunity to complete in 2 years what most teams take many more years to do. I list my arguments why that is, but:
- our vets like Cole, Plekanec, Markov still have decent value.
- Soon, our young prospects like Galchenyuk will make us too good to finish bottom 5.
- The 2013 draft rocks, it is a great year to stockpile picks.
It's high precision, therefore it's surgical. It's not like what other teams do when they realize they suck at the trade deadline, and end up trading whoever isn't injured at the last minute, if their fanbases are lucky.

The "tank" part is the cute part. Some of you are seriously lacking a sense of humour, you need to be able to laugh at yourself in life. Yes we should be excited when the team excels, like in 2007-08. But the team can't excel all the time, and when a clusterfudge happens like last year, and Brad Staubitz becomes the most exciting player on the team, you should take it in stride. Buy some tickets and some jerseys and drink some beer over the games either way.

If you want to call it tanking / transition / development / evaluation / rebuilding, whatever, call it what you want, the difference is semantics to me, and part of the reason I'm not going into politics is that I'm not into the cult of the euphemism. The underlying point is the same, players and coaches need to give 100% every game, whereas management needs to prioritize the future over the present because we have no present.
this is pure gold.

haburger is offline  
Old
01-14-2013, 11:35 PM
  #896
TheGoalJudge
Registered User
 
TheGoalJudge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,004
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krautso View Post
It would be more than that because we are trading our proven veterans now in order to tank for picks. Who's going to win games for us next year? If we decide to blood all these rookies into the team at the same time we will ensure ourselves high first rounders for years to come...Edmonton's got nothing on us.
Are you saying those veterans won games for us last year?

We can't trade Gionta for a 1st and then sign someone with his cap space in the off-season?

Makes too much sense I guess.

TheGoalJudge is offline  
Old
01-15-2013, 01:04 AM
  #897
Lafleurs Guy
Registered User
 
Lafleurs Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 20,577
vCash: 500
One positive that I see is that more people are receptive to the idea of a rebuild. It didn't used to be this way, there were a few of us and then everyone else. Now it seems to be a more even split. Maybe not completely even, but a lot better than it was.

Nice to see that some people can learn from past mistakes.

Lafleurs Guy is offline  
Old
01-15-2013, 01:13 AM
  #898
Myron Gaines*
Trop Giou
 
Myron Gaines*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,391
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
One positive that I see is that more people are receptive to the idea of a rebuild. It didn't used to be this way, there were a few of us and then everyone else. Now it seems to be a more even split. Maybe not completely even, but a lot better than it was.

Nice to see that some people can learn from past mistakes.
It's hard for some people to look past their "I can't believe my team sucks" feeling.

Myron Gaines* is offline  
Old
01-15-2013, 04:01 AM
  #899
habsfanatics
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 3,647
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Nobody is saying that we should try to lose or that the team shouldn't play hard...


No because it's common sense. We aren't contenders now and we proved that last year. Might as well build for the future where we might actually be able to win.

I'd rather gamble on a player that our scouting (which is the best in the league) backs then stick with a guy who's never going to win.

If we deal away Markov for example we probably won't get a guy who was as good as he was in his prime. But so what? We can still get a good young player to build with who will be better in the future than Markov is.

Years ago I said the same thing about dealing Koivu for a then unproven Bobby Ryan. Folks said Ryan would never be as good as Saku... well, who would you rather have now?


Is there a guarantee of success now? No right? In fact if there's any guarantee it's that we aren't going to win anything right now.

So I don't see what we have to lose here.




Why would we want them to retire here? Total waste of a couple of assets. And we don't need to deal ALL the vets away. But if the offers are there, TAKE them and go.


Other teams filled with youth eventually won cups. It just takes patience. Again, we're not going to win anything now anyway.

1st round picks backed by our scouting group are not a bunch of ""mystery balls." That's absolutely silly to try to portray it that way. We've got a good record of getting good players from our scouting group and the more we give them the better off we'll be.

Pleks is not Gretzky either. Dealing him away isn't going to set this franchise back to the stone age any more than letting Koivu leave did. We're not going to win with those guys but they can help contending teams. But to get value out of them we need to trade them now while they still have some good value.

The pick we got for Rivet turned into MaxPac. Was that a mystery ball too? Geez man, some of the arguments you guys bring up are just shockingly bad. How is it that you still don't get it? After two decades of mediocrity... after watching Koivu and company lead us nowhere and wasting all those assets you still don't get it. Three of our top four players were gotten via a rebuild method and yet you still don't get it. We land a guy that people are actually excited about because he seems to actually have some elite offensive talent but you still don't get it.

What does it take for you guys to see the light?
For every MaxPac there is a Terry Ryan, unfortunately.

habsfanatics is offline  
Old
01-15-2013, 06:46 AM
  #900
DAChampion
Registered User
 
DAChampion's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Canberra, Australia
Country: Australia
Posts: 6,435
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
For every MaxPac there is a Terry Ryan, unfortunately.
There are no guarantees in life, everything is random, but we have to maximize our odds.

DAChampion is online now  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:07 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.