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Wings offseason thread part #whogivesa**** - our team sucks

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Old
07-27-2012, 01:54 PM
  #251
The Yzerman
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Originally Posted by EZBAKE View Post
I can handle sucking as long as we seem to be moving in the right direction. We seem to be going more "Calgary" then a team that changes stuff on the fly like Philly.

I can handle bad, but there is a lack of direction.
IMO, we're not going the Calgary route, we actually have some legit prospects, we have more than 2 stars (Kipper and Iginla) and our GM is still competent, though some might doubt that.

And we'll see what direction we're going come October, whether the top line is Franzen-Datsyuk-Nyquist or Samuelsson - Datsyuk - Bertuzzi .

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07-27-2012, 01:56 PM
  #252
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Originally Posted by Zetterberg4Captain View Post
only one elite dman hit the open market this summer and that was 100% more then ever had before

to think all these elite players will be available next july 1st is delusional

edler will not, 0% chance
enstrom will not, 0% chance
perry will not, 0% chance
getzlaf will not, 0% chance
Streit WILL, 90% chance
iginla will not, 0% chance
semin WILL, 90% chance
visnovsky WILL, 95% chance
gonchar WILL, 50% chance
hartnell will not, 0% chance
alffie will not, 0% chance
Wait.....We aren't gonna get Weber?

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07-27-2012, 01:58 PM
  #253
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Originally Posted by schminksbro View Post
I forgot the littleBut seriously my expectations have been lowered to wonder if we will make the playoffs and I think we have pretty much a 50/50 shot at 8/9 seed with 0 shot at competing for the cup.
well, to hear half the board talk, we should just hope we can still manage a split with c-bus, and thank god the isles can't beat up on us 6 times a year.

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07-27-2012, 02:02 PM
  #254
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This team is not going to rebuild through free agency. Free agency basically died with the advent of 13 year contracts. With our unwillingness to fairly value players in either free agency or trade we will likely just be riding this roster for the next couple years.

In other words, don't hold your breath on being a contender until at least 2015, and probably not even then. We have no answer for Rafalski\Stuart\Lidstrom leaving and we won't have any answer when Datsyuk and Zetterberg decline. Think Holland is going to match it when Flip is offered 5 million from some team trying to get to the cap floor? Say goodbye to Flip next offseason. Think Datsyuk is going to stay on a roster where his linemates are permanently Cleary and Bertuzzi? Say goodbye to Datsyuk as well.

In a few years we'll be lucky to be on Calgary's level unless our GM changes his style significantly.

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07-27-2012, 02:03 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by HardingsJockstrap View Post
IMO, we're not going the Calgary route, we actually have some legit prospects, we have more than 2 stars (Kipper and Iginla) and our GM is still competent, though some might doubt that.

And we'll see what direction we're going come October, whether the top line is Franzen-Datsyuk-Nyquist or Samuelsson - Datsyuk - Bertuzzi .
Maybe it should be Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Franzen? With #2 Cleary-Fil-Nyquist? That would give us a really threatening first line and if Nyquist overachieves, Cleary is healthy and Fil has a career year we might have one great line and one good one? Lets the scrubs fight for the rest?

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07-27-2012, 02:05 PM
  #256
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Originally Posted by Syndrome View Post
not what i asked. if you were building a team, would you be happy with 6 of those guys as your top 6? no pav. no hank. no fil. these are your top 6. are you happy?
Personally i think Briere, Giroux and maybe Voracek into our top 6. The other 3 could also play there, but to me they're 2/3 line players as of now.

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07-27-2012, 02:05 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by Syndrome View Post
well, to hear half the board talk, we should just hope we can still manage a split with c-bus, and thank god the isles can't beat up on us 6 times a year.
No, I think we can be 4th in the Central behind the Blues, Hawks, and Preds but still a little better than the Jackets.

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07-27-2012, 02:07 PM
  #258
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Originally Posted by schminksbro View Post
Maybe it should be Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Franzen? With #2 Cleary-Fil-Nyquist? That would give us a really threatening first line and if Nyquist overachieves, Cleary is healthy and Fil has a career year we might have one great line and one good one? Lets the scrubs fight for the rest?
We tried the Datsyuk/Zetterberg pairing before, it's not as effective as having them on two seperate lines.

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07-27-2012, 02:07 PM
  #259
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This is going to be a fun season to watch..

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Old
07-27-2012, 02:07 PM
  #260
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Originally Posted by Schroedingers Cat View Post
In other words, don't hold your breath on being a contender until at least 2015, and probably not even then. We have no answer for Rafalski\Stuart\Lidstrom leaving and we won't have any answer when Datsyuk and Zetterberg decline. Think Holland is going to match it when Flip is offered 5 million from some team trying to get to the cap floor? Say goodbye to Flip next offseason. Think Datsyuk is going to stay on a roster where his linemates are permanently Cleary and Bertuzzi? Say goodbye to Datsyuk as well.

In a few years we'll be lucky to be on Calgary's level unless our GM changes his style significantly.
With 21 straight years of playoff appearances, I can live with 2-3 years of not making the playoffs. It sucks, don't get me wrong, but I can live with that.

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07-27-2012, 02:08 PM
  #261
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Originally Posted by wingz rule View Post
We tried the Datsyuk/Zetterberg pairing before, it's not as effective as having them on two seperate lines.
Ummmm? Stanley Cup 2008. Z-Dats-Homer was one of the best lines in the league.

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07-27-2012, 02:09 PM
  #262
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Just rumours but don't look like they will get Ryan either...

Quote:
******* ******** ‏@***************
BREAKING NEWS ALERT: Just got text from source HIGH UP in #Flyers organization. It' regarding Bobby Ryan. #NHLDUCKS

******* ******** ‏@***************
Sorry for the delay, got more info flowing in. Also on Bobby Ryan. Will tweet everything when I got it. 2 offers on the table as of NOW.

******* ******** ‏@***************
BREAKING NEWS: Holmgren and the #Flyers have submitted an official offer this morning to the #NHLDucks for Bobby Ryan.

******* ******** ‏@***************
The #Flyers have offered ON THE TABLE for Bobby Ryan MATT READ+2013 1st+ Laughton+ Meszaros. #CONFIRMED Ball in #NHLDucks court. #WOW

******* ******** ‏@***************
As soon as the #Flyers offer came in Murray contacted the #Sabres and #Bruins to try to ignite a bidding war. As per #NHLDucks source.

******* ******** ‏@***************
The #Bruins are very cautious about the Ryan sweeps. #NHLDucks making it mandatory Lucic included. Boston 100% will NOT do that.

******* ******** ‏@***************
As previously reported by me and @********** the #Bruins would be willing to include Krejci for Ryan but NOT Lucic. Talks cooling off.

******* ******** ‏@***************
On the other hand my #NHLDucks source told me the #Sabres believe they can make a more competitive package for Ryan than the #Flyers.

******* ******** ‏@***************
Source: "When receiving the news about the #Flyers offer, Darcy told Muray to give him a day or so and he'll prepare a better offer" #Sabres

******* ******** ‏@***************
#StayTuned and as soon as I hear the #Sabres offer on the table for B.Ryan I'll inform you. For time being, #Flyers are front runners.

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Old
07-27-2012, 02:11 PM
  #263
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Originally Posted by schminksbro View Post
Ummmm? Stanley Cup 2008. Z-Dats-Homer was one of the best lines in the league.
Before that Hull-Dats-Z was awesome as well.

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Old
07-27-2012, 02:14 PM
  #264
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In head-shaking news of a different kind, I asked a member of the Wings’ management about the status of Patrick Eaves, and received a simple reply: “There is nothing new to report at this time.” The team appears to have decided to allow Eaves to rest and recuperate this summer and will ask for an update as to how he’s feeling next month at the earliest. I would imagine that he’s kept the Wings’ medical staff appraised of his ability to work out, but at this point, no news is good news.
Source

Keeping my fingers crossed.

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07-27-2012, 02:16 PM
  #265
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Eaves is an irrelevant scrub, couldn't care less if he plays or not.

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07-27-2012, 02:22 PM
  #266
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Eaves is an irrelevant scrub, couldn't care less if he plays or not.
he's a professional sportsman who has suffered a potentially career-ending injury. whether you care or not about his being in the team, you should at least care that he makes a full recovery.

and lets not forget the cirumstances in which he suffered the injury. blocking a shot while playing for detroit.

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07-27-2012, 02:24 PM
  #267
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Just rumours but don't look like they will get Ryan either...
Hahahaha...oh, balls...who was it on here that said, "Now that Philly lost on Weber and Nash has been traded to NYR, Holmgrem is going to turn his attention to Ryan and totally screw up the market for him as well." Spot on.

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Old
07-27-2012, 02:26 PM
  #268
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not what i asked. if you were building a team, would you be happy with 6 of those guys as your top 6? no pav. no hank. no fil. these are your top 6. are you happy?
yes i would take all of them today over filppula

as for dats and zetts, i would giroux over either of them because of his age

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07-27-2012, 03:08 PM
  #269
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Originally Posted by HardingsJockstrap View Post
With 21 straight years of playoff appearances, I can live with 2-3 years of not making the playoffs. It sucks, don't get me wrong, but I can live with that.
We will all have to live with that, presuming we're fortunate enough not to die in the meantime.

The issue for me is that I feel this is all screwed up really, 2010-2012 should have been the years to challenge for the Cup again with a still prime Datsyuk, Zetterberg & Franzen and Lidstrom around with Kronwall hitting his prime. Even the coming season we'd still have D&Z, we have the cap space to load up to contend this year and next year. But the opportunities to take this team up a level just weren't taken the last few years.

Now we are in a position where people say say "well maybe 2016 we can contend again" and I find that a bit unrealistic unless a handful of our prospects hit or exceed their projected ceilings. The current core has to basically be written off and we probably don't at the moment have the pieces for a new Cup-winning core in place. You might be looking at the long haul here as in 10 years or so in the wilderness.

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07-27-2012, 03:10 PM
  #270
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Everyone laughed at Calgary for going out and acquiring the rights to Wideman, and then even more when they signed him long term at a value people didn't think he was worth.

Well, look at that. Looks like Calgary improved their defense. Now, it's quite possible Detroit could be acquiring Calgary's extremely overpriced, overrated d-man in Bouwmeester. Funny how that works.

Gosh, I hate the way Holland does his work.
Bouwmeester is overpaid, but he's underrated. The guy is a wicked skater, has good offensive skills, and is solid defensively. Getting him is probably the best thing Holland could do given no Ryan Suter. If Bouwmeester stays in Calgary, look for a significant increase in his offense given Hartley's presence behind the bench. JayBo has been serving as a defense-first guy when people have only wanted to look at his scoring numbers because of his contract.

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Wideman is a terrible defensive defensemen and a great offensive defenseman.
How about "below average" and "good" instead of "terrible" and "great" in those spots. Wideman is closer to a good two-way #1 than you think, but his defense cuts it out.

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Pretty much our entire d core are classified as offensive defensenen. How would Wideman help us? We need Volchenkovs not Widemans. Plus Wideman is massively overpaid, that wouldve been a brutal signing.
Wideman would allow for Quincey to be shipped for Volchenkov. Quincey is cheaper and Jersey needs a defenseman who has shown offensive capability. Quincey or even White could be tossed for Volchenkov if the Wings had Wideman. That's also true if the Wings are to trade for Bouwmeester; Bouwmeester/Kronwall/White/Ericsson/Quincey/Smith would be the top-six after a Bouwmeester deal, with the assumption Kindl is dealt. Bouwmeester/Kronwall/Ericsson/Smith would remain in addition to Volchenkov and one of Quincey or White after the other deal. JB, Krons, Smith, and Quincey/White fill out the PP while JB, Volchenkov, Ericsson, and Kronwall fill the PK.

That's a pretty solid defense.

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Originally Posted by ZDH View Post
Would you move next years first in a deal for JayBo?

(Keep in mind if things go to hell in a handbasket like they very well could for the first time in 15 or so years our first is the only positive thing we have)
If next year's first (and no key roster players) is the deal for JayBo, I make the deal in an instant. Absolutely. As the roster stands, we have to assume two forwards get traded/waived or Brunner and Nyquist go to GR. Going with the latter example, I see this lineup as likely:

Franzen/Datsyuk/Bertuzzi
Filppula/Zetterberg/Samuelsson (Damn you Holland )
Emmerton/Helm/Cleary
Miller/Abdelkader/Tootoo
Eaves probably starts the year on LTIR, so that likely sticks Nyquist or Brunner in the lineup (Franzen/Datsyuk/Nyquist or Brunner, Cleary/Helm/Bertuzzi?) ahead of Mursak. I'd rather see the following bottom six:

Abdelkader/Helm/Tootoo
Cleary/Emmerton/Miller

Abby is much better on the wing, and Tootoo should be on the third line with Helm (or Helm on the fourth line with Tootoo, depending on how the team is built).

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Originally Posted by Roy S View Post
I doubt Emmerton or Mursak see much increase in playing time, but I'd expect Nyquist to be granted a much bigger role. He played on Pavel's wing for periods of time near the end of last season and has had a whole off season to get stronger and improve and he's consistently mentioned by Babcock and Holland as a young guy getting a larger role.

I think he and Brunner will be given every opportunity to play in the top 6, with Cleary, Bert and Sammy providing depth in the bottom 6 in case the young guys don't work out. I don't think Tatar or any other forward prospect is ready anyway. Their time will come next year when Cleary and Miller aren't re-signed and more roster spots open up.
Nyquist is a good player and certainly could step in and play well, but if he doesn't step in on day one and prove he deserves a top-two line spot, he won't be playing NHL minutes unless someone's injured or traded. The same is true for Brunner.

If the younger guys counted on for bigger roles improve and do well (Nyquist, Brunner, Ericcson, Quincey, Smith, Kindl, Helm, Abdelkader), then we'll probably be an under-the-radar team that surprises and does extremely well.[/quote]

Quincey, Ericsson, and even Brunner aren't really "younger" guys. Ericsson is 28... why not just mention Filppula, White, and Howard while you're talking about "young" players who can step up and make an impact?

Quote:
If they can't handle larger responsibility and don't improve as we'd hope for, then it could be a long year. Somewhere in the middle of that scenario is probably an underdog playoff team that will hope that things break their way for an LA and NJ-type playoff run. Only time will tell. If nothing else, it will be an interesting year and will really test Babcock's coaching ability.
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Originally Posted by schminksbro View Post
Funny, we have a log jam of bottom 6 forwards few of which will challenge our top 6 for ice and yet we have nobody to push Smith. He will be granted tons of ice for better or worse.
Smith will probably jump into the top four in October or sooner if there are no additions to the defense. He has a good chance to leapfrog Kindl and Quincey immediately, which puts him right in. His other competition would be White and Ericsson, and if a guy like Bouwmeester is added, the difference between Smith and White isn't as important.

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Originally Posted by TheMoreYouKnow View Post
Yeah I don't know how you can argue the fact away that the Wings lost two of their top 4 D-men and probably the two most defensively solid ones as well.
Stuart was probably the team's fourth best defensive defenseman last year. His performance has declined significantly the past couple of seasons.

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Originally Posted by sepster View Post
That D would be fine if it had a true #1 guy that would allow everyone else to slot in their proper place. But, it doesn't. Kronwall is the closest, but he's not an All-Star.
You're nuts. Kronwall is one of the top 15 defensemen in the NHL. The bigger problem is that White is a 2/3 tweener, Ericsson is at best a #4, Quincey is also at best a #4, and Smith and Kindl are both basically untested - with Kindl's NHL experience in limited time so far placing him as what looks like a #5/6. Adding a guy like Bouwmeester (while keeping Krons and White) - or seeing Smith and/or Kindl have a breakout season as a top-pairing defenseman - would give the Wings a "good" defense.

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07-27-2012, 03:31 PM
  #271
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Originally Posted by schminksbro View Post
Maybe it should be Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Franzen? With #2 Cleary-Fil-Nyquist? That would give us a really threatening first line and if Nyquist overachieves, Cleary is healthy and Fil has a career year we might have one great line and one good one? Lets the scrubs fight for the rest?
Franzen shouldn't be on a line with Z and Dats. One yes, both no. Dats/Z combo requires one of them to be the primary shooter for maximum effectiveness. Franzen needs to be the primary shooter; he's not nearly as effective as the "net presence" guy, a playmaker, or a secondary shooter.

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Originally Posted by Syndrome View Post
i'm pretty sure there was an entire decade where a lions fan greatest hope was 'please, not another wr in the first round.' i think we're far from that level of desperation.
I don't know; drafting a wide receiver in the first round would be the worst thing to happen to the Red Wings in my lifetime.

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07-27-2012, 03:35 PM
  #272
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not what i asked. if you were building a team, would you be happy with 6 of those guys as your top 6? no pav. no hank. no fil. these are your top 6. are you happy?
Have you ever seen the movie Tropic Thunder? There is a joke in it about how no one should ever go "full ******". Perhaps you give it a look.

In 2-3 years most of Philly's players would be better except Briere, while all of our current top 6ers will be worse. It's not like they are all starting the beginning of their careers right now. Datsyuk, Franzen, and Zetterberg are depreciating assets.


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Old
07-27-2012, 03:38 PM
  #273
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That was the same thing that was said about Zetterberg and Franzen, too. And Kronwall.
All fools

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07-27-2012, 03:39 PM
  #274
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You're nuts. Kronwall is one of the top 15 defensemen in the NHL. The bigger problem is that White is a 2/3 tweener, Ericsson is at best a #4, Quincey is also at best a #4, and Smith and Kindl are both basically untested - with Kindl's NHL experience in limited time so far placing him as what looks like a #5/6. Adding a guy like Bouwmeester (while keeping Krons and White) - or seeing Smith and/or Kindl have a breakout season as a top-pairing defenseman - would give the Wings a "good" defense.
I don"t see where we are disagreeing here. We both just said that if the Wings acquire a #1 DMan (you're proposing Bouwmeester) that would allow the rest of the defense to slot properly and be "good." You said, "good," I said, "fine."

Is it the point about Kronwall? Top 15? Let's see

Keith
Seabrook
Doughty
Suter
Weber
Yandle
Boyle
Burns
Chara
Myers
Pronger (if he can return)
Timonen
Letang
Phaneuf (pains me to name him)
Green (questionable)
Enstrom

There's 16 that you can make a case for and that's not even including guys like Bieksa, Orpik and the like that don't put up the points but could be considered much more effective defensively than Kronwall. And, that's also taking into consideration that Kronwall has been a primarily 2nd pairing DMan while Lidstrom took the more difficult defensive assignments.

In conclusion, Kronwall has not proven that he can be a true #1 DMan.

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07-27-2012, 03:51 PM
  #275
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Just rumours but don't look like they will get Ryan either...

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