HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Detroit Red Wings
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Wings offseason thread part #whogivesa**** - our team sucks

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
09-01-2012, 01:05 AM
  #901
jroc86
Registered User
 
jroc86's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 343
vCash: 500
As optomistic as I am about Smith and Nyquist I actually think Brunner will be the biggest rookie success this year. Hes a little older, more mature, has the best speed (3 step quickness and top-speed), and with his contract situation and right handedness I think hell be thrown into the fire with Pav or Z and get allot more opportunity early in the season to play big minutes than Nyquist.

jroc86 is offline  
Old
09-01-2012, 03:14 AM
  #902
Kyleftlx
twitter*****/kyle_ftl
 
Kyleftlx's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Michigan!
Country: United States
Posts: 1,018
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to Kyleftlx
Quote:
Originally Posted by jroc86 View Post
As optomistic as I am about Smith and Nyquist I actually think Brunner will be the biggest rookie success this year. Hes a little older, more mature, has the best speed (3 step quickness and top-speed), and with his contract situation and right handedness I think hell be thrown into the fire with Pav or Z and get allot more opportunity early in the season to play big minutes than Nyquist.
How many post-lockout success stories are there from players who made the jump from Europe to the US like Brunner has? Just wondering. I am optimistic about him, but it's kind of a cautious thing because I don't know if Holland will go with the one way players, or if he'll have the guts to cut a guy who isn't good enough... and obviously because he has never played in the NHL, so we have no idea what to really expect from him to begin with.

Kyleftlx is offline  
Old
09-01-2012, 04:48 AM
  #903
InjuredChoker
Registered User
 
InjuredChoker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: LTIR or golf course
Posts: 25,130
vCash: 955
I'm pretty optimistic about Brunner.. though I think Cleary bounces back too..

But reports from Switzerland tell that has very good work ethic and is willing to get he's nose dirty, though that wasn't he's job in Zug, he could also play in the third line. So he may not be just top6scorer or bust-type of guy.

InjuredChoker is offline  
Old
09-01-2012, 01:45 PM
  #905
Actual Thought
Boy was I wrong!
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 2,851
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by crashman View Post
You're not alone on that. So many people here talk like Cleary is done already, but I don't think that's the case at all. He's had some bad luck with injuries and I think it shows what kind of teammate he is that he's played through them. It's also his contract year, so I think that extra motivation will help as long as he is healthy.
I agree. I expect Cleary to have a great year this year.

Actual Thought is offline  
Old
09-01-2012, 09:02 PM
  #906
fimoknete
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Roesrath, Germany
Country: Germany
Posts: 862
vCash: 500
you mean golfing in the lock out?
if there is a lockout cleary will be 35 the next, next season.
he played 10 more games last season then the 3 seasons before and got fewer points. how do you explain the 10 more games? because he was more injuried?
why should he get better with age in the nhl when everybody else is going worse?

fimoknete is offline  
Old
09-01-2012, 09:59 PM
  #907
jroc86
Registered User
 
jroc86's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 343
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by fimoknete View Post
you mean golfing in the lock out?
if there is a lockout cleary will be 35 the next, next season.
he played 10 more games last season then the 3 seasons before and got fewer points. how do you explain the 10 more games? because he was more injuried?
why should he get better with age in the nhl when everybody else is going worse?
He had his knee rebuilt this summer ... the one that was a mess of shattered cartilage all last season. I'm doing my masters in physical therapy right now - without writing an essay Ill just say that is an injury that would reduce a 25 yr old to an immobile slug. A healthy Cleary who misses 10 games due to an acute injury is better than a Cleary who misses 2 but plays chronically injured because the only treatment is surgery but he doesn't want to take time off because its mid-season. I say he scores 20+ again next year.

jroc86 is offline  
Old
09-01-2012, 10:19 PM
  #908
kuick
Tatar Sauce
 
kuick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Grand Rapids
Country: United States
Posts: 2,725
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jroc86 View Post
A healthy Cleary who misses 10 games due to an acute injury is better than a Cleary who misses 2 but plays chronically injured because the only treatment is surgery but he doesn't want to take time off because its mid-season. I say he scores 20+ again next year.
Totally agree with you but it depends on who he plays with. Really doubt he gets much if any top 6 time this season. Might flirt with 20 goals but either way I'm hoping we get a much more effective Cleary.

kuick is offline  
Old
09-02-2012, 12:19 PM
  #909
cjm502
#FireHolland
 
cjm502's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Mid Michigan
Country: United States
Posts: 686
vCash: 500
Everyone forgets how good the ZDC line was at times, Cleary was the perfect complimentary player for that line and many others. If he is healthy he will bounce back.

cjm502 is offline  
Old
09-02-2012, 01:39 PM
  #910
RedWingsNow*
SaskatoonDeathSquad
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Ann Arbor
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,356
vCash: 500
The reason why I liked Cleary was his playoffs. In 07. he was really good. In 08, he was invisible, but we won, so who cares. In 09, he rebounded and did really well.
But in 10, 11 and 12 he has 4G and 4A in 28 games -- that's a 12G 12A clip for a 82Game season.

Dan Cleary will be 34 in December...I'm not sure how wise it is to expect him to come back from surgery and be some kind of big-time contributor.

Truth be told, I hope he doesn't have a big season... He's a UFA after this season, and I don't want him back at $2.8M a year. If he scores 20G and 40pts, you know Holland will re-up.

We need to resign Flip and replace Cleary and perhaps Miller after this season.

RedWingsNow* is offline  
Old
09-06-2012, 04:38 PM
  #911
pdd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,576
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjm502 View Post
Everyone forgets how good the ZDC line was at times, Cleary was the perfect complimentary player for that line and many others. If he is healthy he will bounce back.
People generally forget that a healthy Cleary fits well anywhere in the lineup; either wing, 1st line through 4th line. Even last year he still did well. It's the 10-11 Hudler dilemma. The player's season is inconsistent, and below par overall for the player - especially offensively - but when viewed objectively it was not a bad season as a whole. Cleary scored 33 points (30 ESP) and was strong on the PK. By comparison, Todd Bertuzzi played a minute more at ES per game (and 13 minutes more total, due to missing more games) as well as half a minute more per game on the PP. Bertuzzi also played most of the year with Datsyuk. Bertuzzi's numbers? 38 points, with 34 at ES.

Darren Helm, who Cleary spent most of the year with, scored 26 ES points. He did it at a points-per-minute pace that would have given him 31 ESP if he had stayed healthy and played the same amount of time as Cleary. Helm is comparable to Cleary in his defensive acumen, yet people act as if Helm is one of the team's best forwards and Cleary is one of the worst.

pdd is offline  
Old
09-06-2012, 09:37 PM
  #912
ArGarBarGar
Global Moderator
Defense Please
 
ArGarBarGar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Country: United States
Posts: 29,527
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
People generally forget that a healthy Cleary fits well anywhere in the lineup; either wing, 1st line through 4th line. Even last year he still did well. It's the 10-11 Hudler dilemma. The player's season is inconsistent, and below par overall for the player - especially offensively - but when viewed objectively it was not a bad season as a whole. Cleary scored 33 points (30 ESP) and was strong on the PK. By comparison, Todd Bertuzzi played a minute more at ES per game (and 13 minutes more total, due to missing more games) as well as half a minute more per game on the PP. Bertuzzi also played most of the year with Datsyuk. Bertuzzi's numbers? 38 points, with 34 at ES.

Darren Helm, who Cleary spent most of the year with, scored 26 ES points. He did it at a points-per-minute pace that would have given him 31 ESP if he had stayed healthy and played the same amount of time as Cleary. Helm is comparable to Cleary in his defensive acumen, yet people act as if Helm is one of the team's best forwards and Cleary is one of the worst.
Points aren't everything, Helm provides speed which is something that can energize a Wings team without many energizing players, and Cleary has spent the last two seasons a broken mess.

Helm has simply been more dynamic in the last two years.

ArGarBarGar is offline  
Old
09-06-2012, 10:05 PM
  #913
WingedWheel1987
Ken Holland's office
 
WingedWheel1987's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: GPP Michigan
Posts: 9,559
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
People generally forget that a healthy Cleary fits well anywhere in the lineup; either wing, 1st line through 4th line. Even last year he still did well. It's the 10-11 Hudler dilemma. The player's season is inconsistent, and below par overall for the player - especially offensively - but when viewed objectively it was not a bad season as a whole. Cleary scored 33 points (30 ESP) and was strong on the PK. By comparison, Todd Bertuzzi played a minute more at ES per game (and 13 minutes more total, due to missing more games) as well as half a minute more per game on the PP. Bertuzzi also played most of the year with Datsyuk. Bertuzzi's numbers? 38 points, with 34 at ES.

Darren Helm, who Cleary spent most of the year with, scored 26 ES points. He did it at a points-per-minute pace that would have given him 31 ESP if he had stayed healthy and played the same amount of time as Cleary. Helm is comparable to Cleary in his defensive acumen, yet people act as if Helm is one of the team's best forwards and Cleary is one of the worst.
Helm is one of the fastest skaters in the NHL and the energy he brings the garbage 3rd/4th lines is irreplaceable. His speed makes him 100x more valuable than Cleary at this point in his career.

Cleary can only stay healthy 20-30 games a year. His game only works when he is healthy and unfortunately those days are long gone. His body cant play the game that made him so useful. Now he is just another blehhhh player on the Wings that could be easily replaced.

Watching Cleary last year laboring to do anything the majority of the season was nauseating. If i had to guess his age by just watching him play, i would guess he is 45 years old

I usually support Babcock 100%, but in this case, his love affair with Cleary is dumb. I am expecting Cleary to be healthy for October and most of November, but just break down by January/Feb. Assuming the lockout doesnt happen. (which it will)

WingedWheel1987 is offline  
Old
09-07-2012, 10:06 PM
  #914
pdd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,576
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Holliday View Post
Points aren't everything, Helm provides speed which is something that can energize a Wings team without many energizing players, and Cleary has spent the last two seasons a broken mess.

Helm has simply been more dynamic in the last two years.
I'm not talking about being "dynamic" I'm talking about being effective. Adam Oates and Ron Francis weren't dynamic. Nicklas Lidstrom wasn't dynamic.

Cleary was approximately as effective as Helm last season. As for 2010-11.. are you really going to say Helm was better that season? I would say Cleary was the fourth-best forward on the team that season. He missed 14 games but still scored 26 goals and 46 points.

Not being dynamic doesn't mean you're not effective.

pdd is offline  
Old
09-08-2012, 12:32 AM
  #915
ArGarBarGar
Global Moderator
Defense Please
 
ArGarBarGar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Country: United States
Posts: 29,527
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
I'm not talking about being "dynamic" I'm talking about being effective. Adam Oates and Ron Francis weren't dynamic. Nicklas Lidstrom wasn't dynamic.

Cleary was approximately as effective as Helm last season. As for 2010-11.. are you really going to say Helm was better that season? I would say Cleary was the fourth-best forward on the team that season. He missed 14 games but still scored 26 goals and 46 points.

Not being dynamic doesn't mean you're not effective.
No he wasn't.

ArGarBarGar is offline  
Old
09-08-2012, 01:35 AM
  #916
RedWingsNow*
SaskatoonDeathSquad
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Ann Arbor
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,356
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Holliday View Post
No he wasn't.
While I don't think Cleary was that effective last year, I also don't Helm was as good a third line center as he was a fourth line center.
He had one nice run with Miller and Cleary, I believe, but I seem to recall that Helm didn't quite have the same impact on games -- maybe because he was playing tougher minutes against better lines.

RedWingsNow* is offline  
Old
09-08-2012, 01:27 PM
  #918
ArGarBarGar
Global Moderator
Defense Please
 
ArGarBarGar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Country: United States
Posts: 29,527
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
While I don't think Cleary was that effective last year, I also don't Helm was as good a third line center as he was a fourth line center.
He had one nice run with Miller and Cleary, I believe, but I seem to recall that Helm didn't quite have the same impact on games -- maybe because he was playing tougher minutes against better lines.
I'm not saying Helm is a world beater, but Cleary had an abysmal year contrary to what we have expected from him.

The guy has tried his hardest, but when your body is broken you sometimes can't play through it until you fix it.

ArGarBarGar is offline  
Old
09-08-2012, 01:43 PM
  #919
InjuredChoker
Registered User
 
InjuredChoker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: LTIR or golf course
Posts: 25,130
vCash: 955
Quote:
Originally Posted by crashman View Post
On a positive note, I think Tatar is going to be a big factor this year. I watched almost every Slovakia game at the WCs and he was everywhere on the ice, in a good way. He's recently developed some swagger and confidence in his game and I really think he's ready to take on the NHL.

He's going to make people forget who Jiri Hudler is.
I liked Tatar at Worlds too. But it's tough to give him a roster spot, assuming Nyquist and Brunner make it. I think they are higher in the depth chart.

Tatar could also be good for Jurco's progress in AHL. Maybe.

InjuredChoker is offline  
Old
09-08-2012, 02:00 PM
  #921
The Zetterberg Era
Moderator
Nyquist Explosion!
 
The Zetterberg Era's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Ft. Myers, FL
Country: United States
Posts: 23,453
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by crashman View Post
Assuming there is a season, I think he's going to earn a spot if management doesn't deliberately hold him back. Just my prediction, obviously.

I could see him outplaying Abdelkader, Tootoo...possibly even Nyquist.
What about the current roster situation makes you think that deliberately holding back won't take place? Now I personally would like to see him, I think the old "country club" attitude is settling in again. It would really be a big deal if they run this as an open tryout camp really. They could attempt to trade the loser of competitions, but if not put them on waivers. Send the message, it might hurt signing vets but this just in, Doan and Jovocop and a whole bunch of Holland's vet signings don't even come around anymore. Problem for Tatar is I don't see him making the top 9 even if they do that and he wouldn't be put in the press box. Nyquist outplayed him by a large margin last year, I don't see that. Abdelkader is playing 4th line center, I don't see that. Tootoo brings a unique skill set, by the way he scored 30 points last year, I don't see that. I like Tatar and especially the steps he has made to round his game but he is in trouble in the numbers game this year, he will take Cleary's spot on the roster next year hopefully.

The Zetterberg Era is offline  
Old
09-08-2012, 04:23 PM
  #923
Winger98
Moderator
powers combined
 
Winger98's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Cleveland
Posts: 14,851
vCash: 500
Send a message via Yahoo to Winger98
Barring trades or injuries, Tatar is going to be in GR this year. Good chance Nyquist joins him so that Holland can save "organizational depth." I think Brunner makes it because he's got decent wheels, a right-handed shot and Babcock likes him, but even that probably changes if Eaves is healthy enough to play.

The real best hope for the kids is for a full season where Cleary, Bert, Eaves, Tootoo,etc. have a chance to hurt themselves and open up playing time.

__________________
RIP David
Winger98 is offline  
Old
09-08-2012, 04:41 PM
  #924
WingedWheel1987
Ken Holland's office
 
WingedWheel1987's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: GPP Michigan
Posts: 9,559
vCash: 500
Nyquist spending another season in GR would probably the biggest mistake Holland has made since 2009. That is pretty impressive considering how many mistakes he has made since 2009.

I imagine if that does happen, we would clearly see that Holland has a very different idea on how the team is constructed compared to most fans and pundits. Holland thinks they are still an elite team that can afford to let high upside prospects rot because they are too risky for the playoffs where security/experience is necessary.

It would be a travesty if Emmerton and Abdelkader have roster spots over Nyquist. Cleary, Bert and Sammy should not be on the team. They are preventing the team from getting better.


Last edited by WingedWheel1987: 09-08-2012 at 04:52 PM.
WingedWheel1987 is offline  
Old
09-08-2012, 05:22 PM
  #925
sully61
Unregistered User
 
sully61's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Michigan
Posts: 1,466
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
Nyquist spending another season in GR would probably the biggest mistake Holland has made since 2009. That is pretty impressive considering how many mistakes he has made since 2009.

I imagine if that does happen, we would clearly see that Holland has a very different idea on how the team is constructed compared to most fans and pundits. Holland thinks they are still an elite team that can afford to let high upside prospects rot because they are too risky for the playoffs where security/experience is necessary.

It would be a travesty if Emmerton and Abdelkader have roster spots over Nyquist. Cleary, Bert and Sammy should not be on the team. They are preventing the team from getting better.
I can see Nyquist starting in GR if he hasn't added much strength this off season. His balance was brutal last season. I'd like him to come up in a top 6 roll, but it looks like it may be 3rd line or GR.

sully61 is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:28 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.