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Wings offseason thread part #whogivesa**** - our team sucks

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Old
07-26-2012, 08:42 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by icKx View Post
Based on what you see, what is the plan?

I would like to the plan to be 'win now'. CB made the The Way Forward poll (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1224929) and I said go for broke.

Time is not on our side.
So you would rather sell the future to make one more last ditch effort at the cup and be in an even worse spot in 4 years? Like a Calgary Flames spot where we not only have past their prime stars and players earning more then they are worth but also have no farm system or youth to inject into the lineup? Probably the worst plan out of them all.

Staying the course can be a plan and I think at this point it is the best one. Our prospects have a ton of potential and we won't need all of them to pan out, just a few. If a bunch of them do even better, but at least we have a team right now that is essentially a top end defenseman away from being legit again and our future still looks very bright.

Another thing that Holland & co. don't get enough praise for around here is how well they spend their money. We do not have one bad contract on our books right now and have the ability to go anywhere with the team as long as it makes sense.

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07-26-2012, 08:42 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
7.5 million for Zach parise>7.5 million in capspace.

This is just damage control because holland failed so miserably.
6.5 for Parise in 2015-16 would have you *****ing about how Holland paid too much for him.

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07-26-2012, 08:44 PM
  #78
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6.5 for Parise in 2015-16 would have you *****ing about how Holland paid too much for him.
I hope someone bumps these posts in three years, because you're right.

Scott Gomez-lite.

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07-26-2012, 08:47 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Frk It View Post
To answer the bolded, no I don't. The focal point of my post wasn't that we didn't sign Parise and Suter, so now all is lost. I was more trying to show the gap of what free agents sign for, and what Ken Holland offers them. You can say what he offers is fair, which is fine, but we should know by now we are never going to put the highest offer in for a unrestricted free agent with the cap. Regardless of how big of a need that player fills. We are never going to offer sheet a player, no matter how big of a need that player fills. We are reluctant to trade impact roster players for other impact roster players. These things have hampered the ability of this team to acquire players to fill holes. I'm not focused on just the last year, I'm talking about everything that has happened since we played Pittsburgh in the last cup. We hold on to old players for too long, are too passive in free agency and trades, and now because of it we are starting to see the consequences. I still think this team can be decent this year, I just don't like seeing us be on such unstable ground with so much missed opportunity the last few years.
How are we on unstable ground though? We know what we get out of every player other then some young kids and our defense is one shut down guy away from being good not great. We are still in a very good position the way I see it.

Like I said there are moves that I think should've been made/not made that did or didn't happen but there will be more moves to be made later this year and beyond. Thinking Holland will never overpay for a player or never do anything is just ridiculous in my opinion.

I think he would've improved his offer had Suter given him the chance. I think he would've gone north of $8 million for as long as possible depending on what happens next year with the CBA for Shea Weber.

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07-26-2012, 08:47 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by ZetterBurger View Post
So you would rather sell the future to make one more last ditch effort at the cup and be in an even worse spot in 4 years? Like a Calgary Flames spot where we not only have past their prime stars and players earning more then they are worth but also have no farm system or youth to inject into the lineup? Probably the worst plan out of them all.
Yes, I would rather sell the farm for a 3-4 year window, suck and rebuild with the high picks.

'Stay the course' is more or less what will turn us into Calgary -- a borderline playoff team that overpays for middle of the road talent.

We have a top-5 player in the world in Datsyuk. Once he declines or leaves for Russia we're just another team in desperate search of a true #1 center. That could take a decade to find.

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07-26-2012, 08:49 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by SoupNazi View Post
I hope someone bumps these posts in three years, because you're right.

Scott Gomez-lite.
I don't think he will become as utterly useless as Scott Gomez but I do think he will eventually turn into a 50 point player in the next 4-5 years and you don't pay a guy who pots 30-20 or 25-25 $7.5 million per year. Just imagine when he is puttering along as a 38 year old...

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07-26-2012, 08:52 PM
  #82
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Yes, I would rather sell the farm for a 3-4 year window, suck and rebuild with the high picks.

'Stay the course' is more or less what will turn us into Calgary -- a borderline playoff team that overpays for middle of the road talent.

We have a top-5 player in the world in Datsyuk. Once he declines or leaves for Russia we're just another team in desperate search of a true #1 center. That could take a decade to find.
Calgary is in the spot they are in because they have "sold the farm" to keep going for it every year and they sign free agents that will "help" them every offseason and never pick one or the other. I am suggesting that they are patient and don't make bad offers/trades that help now but seriously hurt us in 4 years. I can't believe you would rather go big for 4 years and turn into a bottom feeder. That's just as pathetic as tanking if you ask me and selfish on your part.

What does your last sentence have to do with anything? We have proven you don't need a top ten pick to get a 1st line center. I doubt we get another pair of 7th rounders that develop like they did but Jarnkrok has a chance to do that. Also what if the next CBA makes teams sell off players for cheap and there the Wings are ready to split with some prospects to make a splash. What if Getzlaf becomes available next year? We will be in a great position to get him.

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07-26-2012, 09:04 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by ZetterBurger View Post
Calgary is in the spot they are in because they have "sold the farm" to keep going for it every year and they sign free agents that will "help" them every offseason and never pick one or the other. I am suggesting that they are patient and don't make bad offers/trades that help now but seriously hurt us in 4 years. I can't believe you would rather go big for 4 years and turn into a bottom feeder. That's just as pathetic as tanking if you ask me and selfish on your part.

What does your last sentence have to do with anything? We have proven you don't need a top ten pick to get a 1st line center. I doubt we get another pair of 7th rounders that develop like they did but Jarnkrok has a chance to do that. Also what if the next CBA makes teams sell off players for cheap and there the Wings are ready to split with some prospects to make a splash. What if Getzlaf becomes available next year? We will be in a great position to get him.
Exactly people who keep trotting out Calgary really need to think about that analogy. I really feel we were just a couple years off on the overlap this time. The talent on the farm is real and buying mediocre talent like Wideman and Carle or some of the other options would have been terrible. Only am truly mad at Holland for the Semin signing and actually attempting to please the masses around here in a Rick Nash desperation trade.

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07-26-2012, 09:05 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by ZetterBurger View Post
So you would rather sell the future to make one more last ditch effort at the cup and be in an even worse spot in 4 years? Like a Calgary Flames spot where we not only have past their prime stars and players earning more then they are worth but also have no farm system or youth to inject into the lineup? Probably the worst plan out of them all.

Staying the course can be a plan and I think at this point it is the best one. Our prospects have a ton of potential and we won't need all of them to pan out, just a few. If a bunch of them do even better, but at least we have a team right now that is essentially a top end defenseman away from being legit again and our future still looks very bright.
The Wings don't have to sell the entire future to improve the team for the next few seasons. Just be willing to move a few of the prospects, picks and/or roster players to get a guy like Ryan or Enstrom (just to name a couple worth looking at). It's not like we're talking about a "Herschel Walker trade" scenario where you're sending ALL of your top prospects and picks for one superstar. I don't see how a package of Flip + a combo platter of picks/a roster player and/or prospects dooms us to become the Flames of the Central division. Pavel and Hank likely only have a few top years left before they decline, and right now we don't have the high end players on the roster to bridge the gap to the Jarnkrok/Jurco wave of guys (assuming they pan out).

Quote:
Another thing that Holland & co. don't get enough praise for around here is how well they spend their money. We do not have one bad contract on our books right now and have the ability to go anywhere with the team as long as it makes sense.
We definitely don't have any Rick DiPietro contracts on the books and for that I am definitely grateful. However, he has shown a penchant for keeping vets around for too long, and while loyalty can be a good thing, it can also drag you down in a cap league. Bertuzzi shouldn't have been re-signed for another 2 years, as he's either slowing down the top 6 or clogging up the bottom 6. And I don't think the lifetime deal for Franzen was a great idea either, as he'll be around long after his usefulness has been greatly diminished (need to save those cap-circumventing lifetime deals for your franchise players). Those are just 2 example contracts limiting the roster flexibility.

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07-26-2012, 09:05 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by ZetterBurger View Post
How are we on unstable ground though? We know what we get out of every player other then some young kids and our defense is one shut down guy away from being good not great. We are still in a very good position the way I see it.

Like I said there are moves that I think should've been made/not made that did or didn't happen but there will be more moves to be made later this year and beyond. Thinking Holland will never overpay for a player or never do anything is just ridiculous in my opinion.

I think he would've improved his offer had Suter given him the chance. I think he would've gone north of $8 million for as long as possible depending on what happens next year with the CBA for Shea Weber.
Have you seen the defense? That's how we are on unstable ground.

Why is it ridiculous to think Holland won't do something he has never shown a willingness to do, since the cap has been in place?

Regarding, Suter. Sometimes you don't get a second chance. Make a competitive offer the first time.

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07-26-2012, 09:12 PM
  #86
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Well unless Holland pulls a huge trade out his ass it looks like we're heading for 6th-8th place finish.

I like the Tootoo and Gustavsson signings but they should be complementary signings, not your big ones.

With that being said I'm not ready to get the pitchforks and torches out and show up outside Holland's house because of one bad off-season.

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07-26-2012, 09:17 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Turkish View Post
The Wings don't have to sell the entire future to improve the team for the next few seasons. Just be willing to move a few of the prospects, picks and/or roster players to get a guy like Ryan or Enstrom (just to name a couple worth looking at). It's not like we're talking about a "Herschel Walker trade" scenario where you're sending ALL of your top prospects and picks for one superstar. I don't see how a package of Flip + a combo platter of picks/a roster player and/or prospects dooms us to become the Flames of the Central division. Pavel and Hank likely only have a few top years left before they decline, and right now we don't have the high end players on the roster to bridge the gap to the Jarnkrok/Jurco wave of guys (assuming they pan out).
I am not against a Flip + package at all. I have actually proposed such a trade numerous times in different trade threads and on these boards. What he was talking about was trading for a top pair defenseman and a top line winger right now. That would either deplete our current roster (most likely) or deplete the farm. Maybe a bit of both. What if to get Ryan the Ducks demand Filppula + Nyquist + Jarnkrok? Rumor has it that they are demanding a trade starts with Couturier from the Flyers. His value is higher than any player on our team sans Datsyuk and Zetterberg.

The Wings are in a funny stage right now and you touch on it in this post. They have the guys that are beyond their most valuable point in Pav, Hank, Franzen. They have guys that are in their primes and can't be traded like Kronwall and Howard. Then they have a lot of guys that either have not proven anythign in the NHL (Nyquist, Smith, Tatar, prospects, etc.) and guys that are good to have on your team but would just be fillers in a trade. We don't have a Dubinsky + Anisimov to spare. In 2-4 years when Nyquist and Smitha re becoming vets and Jurco, Jarnkrok, Pulkkinen, Sproul and Ouellet are hopefully knocking on the door we will be in a position to trade on or two for a superstar or to fill in needs. As of right now it's a waiting game for the Wings in my opinion.

They get praised for their great drafting and some love their prospect pool. Well over the next few years I think it's time to see what these guys are made of and go from there. Nobody thought the Rangers would be where they are but McDonagh, Stepan, Callahan, Boyle, etc. come out of nowhere and they are the favorites. We need to test our draft picks and scouting system because we don't have anything valuable enough to trade away that is worth trading.

Quote:
We definitely don't have any Rick DiPietro contracts on the books and for that I am definitely grateful. However, he has shown a penchant for keeping vets around for too long, and while loyalty can be a good thing, it can also drag you down in a cap league. Bertuzzi shouldn't have been re-signed for another 2 years, as he's either slowing down the top 6 or clogging up the bottom 6. And I don't think the lifetime deal for Franzen was a great idea either, as he'll be around long after his usefulness has been greatly diminished (need to save those cap-circumventing lifetime deals for your franchise players). Those 2 contracts are examples of limiting the roster flexibility.
I agree, and like I said I would've preferred Hossa to the players we picked up, but even the Blackhawks are not in a great spot right now. They are actually not only missing a top six forward but hey have 2 NHL centers on their roster. They won a cup, but they got bounced int he first round for two straight years because they went for broke and sold their team because they were too tight to the cap. We would have to sell off a lot of players that make up our depth and future not necessarily for a star but to remain under the cap.

My way might end up being wrong, but I still think it's unreasonable to put all of this on Holland when in my opinion it's just what is bound to happen in a salary cap world. You have your time at the top then hopefully you drafted well enough to rebuild on the fly and get back at it in a few years. No team will ever have a reign at the top like the Wings have had for the past two decades.

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07-26-2012, 09:21 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by iRep TheWingedWheel View Post
Well unless Holland pulls a huge trade out his ass it looks like we're heading for 6th-8th place finish.

I like the Tootoo and Gustavsson signings but they should be complementary signings, not your big ones.

With that being said I'm not ready to get the pitchforks and torches out and show up outside Holland's house because of one bad off-season.
And you come to that conclusion based on......what exactly?

Do you forget that we finished last season 6th seed and had a considerably stronger lineup? We're significantly weaker defensively, we're maybe on par offensively but have gotten even older.....and yet you think we have a chance at 6th seed?

We're looking at a 10th seed finish, count it.

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07-26-2012, 09:23 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Frk It View Post
Have you seen the defense? That's how we are on unstable ground.

Why is it ridiculous to think Holland won't do something he has never shown a willingness to do, since the cap has been in place?

Regarding, Suter. Sometimes you don't get a second chance. Make a competitive offer the first time.
It's ridiculous to think he won't pony up for the right player. Suter was that guy this year, but not if you need to take on Parise at the same contract.

You don't think $6.75 million is competitive for 13 years?? The entire point of a cap circumvention contract is to lower the cap hit not give them the same average they are worth for 4-5 years longer then they deserve.

Franzen's contract would be at $5 million per year without the circumvention years. Zetterberg's would be around $7.5. Minnesota's deals they gave Parise and Suter, without the circumvention years has their deal averaging out at $10.5 million per year. That is utterly insane.

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07-26-2012, 09:24 PM
  #90
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Do you forget that we finished last season 6th seed and had a considerably stronger lineup?
5th, but your point still stands.

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07-26-2012, 09:24 PM
  #91
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And you come to that conclusion based on......what exactly?

Do you forget that we finished last season 6th seed and had a considerably stronger lineup? We're significantly weaker defensively, we're maybe on par offensively but have gotten even older.....and yet you think we have a chance at 6th seed?

We're looking at a 10th seed finish, count it.
We were the fifth seed and I am not counting on anything until we see if Howard is the guy from the first half the season and Filppula builds on his confidence. There is still plenty to like about this team.

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07-26-2012, 09:25 PM
  #92
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It's ridiculous to think he won't pony up for the right player.
I hear Modano is considering a come back

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07-26-2012, 09:40 PM
  #93
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Lets just overpay for Doan and offer a kings ransom for Ryan. At this point I wouldn't mind.

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07-26-2012, 09:40 PM
  #94
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Also for people complaining about how bad we will be next year. Right now we are probably the second best team in the central division. Will the Blues be the only team that makes the playoffs?

From last years standings...

1. Vancouver - Improved their blue line, they will remain a top dog.
2. St. Louis - same team with Schwartz and Tarasenko coming into the fold. They will be very good, possibly 1st.
3. Phoenix - considerably worse if they lose Doan. Worse nonetheless. Can they make another dream run?
4. Nashville - Worse all over. Retaining Weber keeps them somewhat relevant. Rinne.
5. Detroit - worse on defense, better on offense. realistically will drop a seed or two.
6. Chicago - Done nothing to improve. Still no 2nd center, defense is nothign special. Bad goalie.
7. San Jose - Have they done anything? Core older and declining as well. Goalie situation is brutal.
8. LA - same exact team. probably winning the Pacific.
9. Calgary - Better? I can't tell. Nothing special that's for sure.
10. Dallas - 2nd in the pacific in my opinion. They will make the playoffs.
11. Colorado - Kids could take another step and make the playoffs. Great team with promise.
12. Minnesota - better but honestly I don't know that they are better than 8th seed. 3rd maybe 4th in the division.
13. Anaheim - improved defense, last year was flukey.
14. Edmonton - In a pretty strong division, still no goalie and defense is not stable.
15. Columbus - Maybe good enough to not pick 1st overall.

So who has really improved their team enough from the teams who missed to leapfrog us? I would make a way to early prediction on the standings next year to look like this.

1. Vancouver
2. St. Louis
3. LA
4. Dallas
5.Detroit
6. Minnesota
7. Phoenix
8. Colorado

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07-26-2012, 09:42 PM
  #95
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It's ridiculous to think he won't pony up for the right player. Suter was that guy this year, but not if you need to take on Parise at the same contract.

You don't think $6.75 million is competitive for 13 years?? The entire point of a cap circumvention contract is to lower the cap hit not give them the same average they are worth for 4-5 years longer then they deserve.

Franzen's contract would be at $5 million per year without the circumvention years. Zetterberg's would be around $7.5. Minnesota's deals they gave Parise and Suter, without the circumvention years has their deal averaging out at $10.5 million per year. That is utterly insane.
Where did I say anything about cap circumvention? I said since there has been a hard cap, Holland has not shown in unrestricted free agency he is willing to be the top bidder for the top free agent. Making fair offers is fine, unless they are consistently losing offers. Ponying up is not being the bridesmaid. I'll believe it when I see it. But I haven't yet.

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07-26-2012, 09:44 PM
  #96
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A good thing about Semin being signed and Doan showing no interest in Detroit, Holland can officially pull the trigger on some trades. I suspect trades will be coming in the next couples of weeks, with training camp starting in September.

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07-26-2012, 09:53 PM
  #97
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I wouldn't mind seeing Knuble signed to a 2-way deal to perhaps play on the 4th line if some depth players like Mursak and Emmerton can be moved for a depth defenseman.

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07-26-2012, 09:54 PM
  #98
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If the plan was to win now, we'd have to add a top-pairing D-man and probably a legit scorer.

I don't see how you are going to get that at this point.
Trade Quincey and a first for an overpriced D (Bouwmeester)

Sign Semin.
Woops.
Sign Kostitsyn...

Screw it. Holland doesn't seem to care. Why should I?


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07-26-2012, 09:54 PM
  #99
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Do you forget that we finished last season 6th seed and had a considerably stronger lineup? We're significantly weaker defensively, we're maybe on par offensively but have gotten even older.....and yet you think we have a chance at 6th seed?
If you don't know where we finished last year, it's hard to take you seriously.

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07-26-2012, 09:55 PM
  #100
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Where did I say anything about cap circumvention? I said since there has been a hard cap, Holland has not shown in unrestricted free agency he is willing to be the top bidder for the top free agent. Making fair offers is fine, unless they are consistently losing offers. Ponying up is not being the bridesmaid. I'll believe it when I see it. But I haven't yet.
My points about the contracts that drop t $1 million for 2-3 years at the end were in response to you saying he didn't make a competitive offer. When you look at the differences in amount it looks like a lot because it's 10 more million dollars, but spread out over 13 years that is an extra $1 million dollars per year.

Now if you look at it in the sense that for the last two years of that deal are $1 million a piece specifically for the purpose of lowering the cap hit, the averages look much different. The Red Wings looks like it's right on par for a franchise defenseman. If the deals were structures identically where over the last 4 years the pay salary goes to $2, $1, $1 million that means the contracts real money looks like this.

Red Wings - 10/$84 million = $8.4 million.
Wild - 10/$94 million = $9.4 million.

You seriously think the Red Wings offer was not competitive? It was very competitive and the rumor is that Suter was ready to take it if Parise would've chosen Pitt or NJ. They chose to play together, which is fine and their choice. It also isn't just Suter's contract that needed to be competitive you need to offer him and Parise those deals at that point. Getting Suter at that price isn't worth it when you need to pay Parise the same.

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