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2012 Free Agency Thread - Part XXI: Weepy Tears & Angst (A. Kostitsyn Edition)

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Old
07-29-2012, 06:38 PM
  #901
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
Agreed. bottom pairing defenseman is not a need. If we bring in a D-man its a physical top 4 guy. Even then, if we do trade for a top 4 guy I would hope we turn right around and trade Martin.
That would really be the only way that a trade for D before the season would make sense. Otherwise I am all for letting Despres and Niskanen show us the cut of their jib and shore the D up at the deadline, if it's found lacking.

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07-29-2012, 08:11 PM
  #902
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I'm still not sold on Murray though. If he can't play in the top 4 I really don't see him being a big help. I'd love Clowe though.
It always amazes me how fast people forget how great Gill/Scuderi were for the Pens in the playoffs, especially on the PK.

Our defense is great for the transition game. It's soft as **** though for the playoff grind. Engelland might be tough but he was burned repeatedly in the Philly series.

Murray is the type of player the Pens are lacking for a playoff run. Doesn't matter if he's the 4th D, 5th, or 6th. He's miles better than Engelland and I'm an Engo supporter.

There's a reason Lidstrom would go to bat to get Murray on the Swedish olympic team. The guy is hard to play against.

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07-29-2012, 08:37 PM
  #903
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It always amazes me how fast people forget how great Gill/Scuderi were for the Pens in the playoffs, especially on the PK.

Our defense is great for the transition game. It's soft as **** though for the playoff grind. Engelland might be tough but he was burned repeatedly in the Philly series.

Murray is the type of player the Pens are lacking for a playoff run. Doesn't matter if he's the 4th D, 5th, or 6th. He's miles better than Engelland and I'm an Engo supporter.

There's a reason Lidstrom would go to bat to get Murray on the Swedish olympic team. The guy is hard to play against.[
Bingo.

Which of our dmen are tough to play against? We have no size and strength to clear the crease. There's a reason Philly had such offensive zone time on us during the playoffs. Our D are soft.

Give me Murray anyday to add to our blueline.


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07-29-2012, 08:49 PM
  #904
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I'm alright bringing someone in but we don't actually need more d-men. If we bring in Murray we should move one of Martin or Niskanen out. No reason not to have a spot for Despres/Strait/Bortuzzo to fight for.

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07-29-2012, 08:56 PM
  #905
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I'm alright bringing someone in but we don't actually need more d-men. If we bring in Murray we should move one of Martin or Niskanen out. No reason not to have a spot for Despres/Strait/Bortuzzo to fight for.
Forget about Martin and Niskanen. The weak links, especially for the playoffs, are Lovejoy and Engelland. You could tell the past 2 playoffs, Bylsma was hesitant to throw those two on the ice based on their TOI. Engelland is fine for the regular season but he should be a 7th Dman for the playoffs IMO.

We're going to be stuck with Martin until we see if his game picks up. Shero/Byslma value transition defenseman way too much to get rid of him at this point.

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07-29-2012, 09:04 PM
  #906
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Originally Posted by Jules Winnfield View Post
Forget about Martin and Niskanen. The weak links, especially for the playoffs, are Lovejoy and Engelland. You could tell the past 2 playoffs, Bylsma was hesitant to throw those two on the ice based on their TOI. Engelland is fine for the regular season but he should be a 7th Dman for the playoffs IMO.

We're going to be stuck with Martin until we see if his game picks up. Shero/Byslma value transition defenseman way too much to get rid of him at this point.
Lovejoy isn't even worth mentioning because Strait, Despres and Bortuzzo are all going to play before him. I just don't agree that Engelland was a problem. If we want to get tougher to play against he isn't the guy to get rid of. He also has very little trade value compared to either Martin or Niskanen.

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07-29-2012, 09:37 PM
  #907
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According to Eklund, Pens have an interest in Colaigetinjuredalotiacovo;

Quote:
Now that the free agent defense market has thinned out, it looks like Colaiacovo is generating some interest. I have heard that Detroit, Dallas, Pittsburgh and at least one other team have kicked tires of late.
http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Eklun...iacovo/1/45845

??

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07-29-2012, 09:37 PM
  #908
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Well, now that I have considered all the great recent victories of the Swedish Olympic team and the San Jose Sharks, I should probably freak out more about that 6 game stretch in April.

Seriously though, not saying no to a more physical Dman per se, but Murray is way too slow for the Pens. You give him one playoff round here and everyone will whine about him being constantly overrun just as much as they whine about Martin being soff.

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07-29-2012, 09:42 PM
  #909
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Originally Posted by kratzbuerste View Post
Well, now that I have considered all the great recent victories of the Swedish Olympic team and the San Jose Sharks, I should probably freak out more about that 6 game stretch in April.

Seriously though, not saying no to a more physical Dman per se, but Murray is way too slow for the Pens. You give him one playoff round here and everyone will whine about him being constantly overrun just as much as they whine about Martin being soff.


Why aren't there turtle smilies?

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07-29-2012, 09:44 PM
  #910
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Originally Posted by kratzbuerste View Post
Seriously though, not saying no to a more physical Dman per se, but Murray is way too slow for the Pens. You give him one playoff round here and everyone will whine about him being constantly overrun just as much as they whine about Martin being soff.
Again, this argument is flawed. When we won the cup, Gill was no speed demon and he's slower than Murray, yet was a major contributor for a stay at home D and on the PK. Boucher and Eaton were also not that fast as well.

People need to realize you can't have everything you want in each player on the team. Murray brings the pain with his muscle, being a solid stay at home D, and on the PK.

I'm guessing the same people stuck on Murray being too slow conveniently ignored this when Gill and the rest of the slower players on the Pens raised the cup.

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07-29-2012, 09:46 PM
  #911
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Originally Posted by Jules Winnfield View Post
Forget about Martin and Niskanen. The weak links, especially for the playoffs, are Lovejoy and Engelland. You could tell the past 2 playoffs, Bylsma was hesitant to throw those two on the ice based on their TOI. Engelland is fine for the regular season but he should be a 7th Dman for the playoffs IMO.

We're going to be stuck with Martin until we see if his game picks up. Shero/Byslma value transition defenseman way too much to get rid of him at this point.
Niskanen-Lovejoy was one of the worst defensive pairings the Penguins have ever had in the playoffs. Nisky was still new and Lovejoy was just plain awful.

Engelland was one of our more dependable dmen last year. I didn't not notice any hesitance by Bylsma in putting him out there. He is more than capable of being a #6 on the bottom pairing. MORE than capable. He's earned it.

I can't believe Lovejoy is still even with us...maybe they are keeping him as a trade chip or a throw in for a package deal?

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07-29-2012, 09:51 PM
  #912
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Originally Posted by SEALBound View Post
Niskanen-Lovejoy was one of the worst defensive pairings the Penguins have ever had in the playoffs. Nisky was still new and Lovejoy was just plain awful.

Engelland was one of our more dependable dmen last year. I didn't not notice any hesitance by Bylsma in putting him out there. He is more than capable of being a #6 on the bottom pairing. MORE than capable. He's earned it.

I can't believe Lovejoy is still even with us...maybe they are keeping him as a trade chip or a throw in for a package deal?
He might be more valuable as a camp body than he is in a trade at this point so maybe they just plan to dump him after? I don't know, but there's no way all three of Lovejoy, Strait and Bortuzzo are still here after camp. And I would still be shocked if Despres doesn't make the team.

My thing with Murray is that I don't want him to come in and block the young guys. If we add a d-man we need to move a d-man out.

something like

Orpik-Letang
Murray-Niskanen
Despres-Engelland
Bortuzzo/Strait

would be pretty good imo. That complaint about being soft would be pretty much gone. And Martin could be a part of bringing back a decent play I would think.

I don't think it happens before the season starts though. We'll want to give Martin a chance to play; even if it's just to improve his trade value.

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07-29-2012, 09:52 PM
  #913
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Originally Posted by SEALBound View Post
Niskanen-Lovejoy was one of the worst defensive pairings the Penguins have ever had in the playoffs. Nisky was still new and Lovejoy was just plain awful.

Engelland was one of our more dependable dmen last year. I didn't not notice any hesitance by Bylsma in putting him out there. He is more than capable of being a #6 on the bottom pairing. MORE than capable. He's earned it.

I can't believe Lovejoy is still even with us...maybe they are keeping him as a trade chip or a throw in for a package deal?
Completely agreed about Lovejoy. His giveaway on the one Couturier goal was one of the worst I've seen in the Pens playoff history.

Regarding Engelland, Bylsma only put him out there for 11:29 a game. Lovejoy was out there for 10:32, almost a minute less. He barely trusted Engo more than Lovejoy. More so than that, I just don't believe that Bylsma has not trusted the 5th/6th guys the past 2 years in the playoffs. When some of our top 4 aren't performing, it really hurts the Pens when we don't have guys the coach feels he can put out there to eat up minutes.

I like Engelland...don't get me wrong. I just don't think Bylsma trusts playing him or any of our 5th/6th guys that much in the playoffs.

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07-29-2012, 09:52 PM
  #914
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Originally Posted by Jules Winnfield View Post
Again, this argument is flawed. When we won the cup, Gill was no speed demon and he's slower than Murray, yet was a major contributor for a stay at home D and on the PK. Boucher and Eaton were also not that fast as well.

People need to realize you can't have everything you want in each player on the team. Murray brings the pain with his muscle, being a solid stay at home D, and on the PK.

I'm guessing the same people stuck on Murray being too slow conveniently ignored this when Gill and the rest of the slower players on the Pens raised the cup.
Wasn't Engelland one of our best defenders in the playoffs? I mean, it's not saying much because the defense looked like a bunch of disinterested beer leaguers, but still...

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07-29-2012, 09:56 PM
  #915
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
My thing with Murray is that I don't want him to come in and block the young guys. If we add a d-man we need to move a d-man out.
Murray isn't going to block Despres. If anything, the Pens might already have their mind made up that Despres has the wheels to play and keep up with Letang.

Despres - Letang

Orpik
Martin
Niskanen

Engelland
Lovejoy
Strait
Bortuzzo

The defense is one injury away from bleh. Another defenseman coming in is going to fight for that #6 spot. Hopefully we can have someone who is a stay at home guy that can help on the PK. Letang, Despres, Martin, Niskanen aren't the kind of guys on the PK who can help move guys who set up in front of Fleury.

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07-29-2012, 09:58 PM
  #916
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Wasn't Engelland one of our best defenders in the playoffs? I mean, it's not saying much because the defense looked like a bunch of disinterested beer leaguers, but still...
I would say Letang and Niskanen were our best D in the playoffs.

Our D sucked.

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07-29-2012, 09:59 PM
  #917
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Again, this argument is flawed. When we won the cup, Gill was no speed demon and he's slower than Murray, yet was a major contributor for a stay at home D and on the PK. Boucher and Eaton were also not that fast as well.

People need to realize you can't have everything you want in each player on the team. Murray brings the pain with his muscle, being a solid stay at home D, and on the PK.

I'm guessing the same people stuck on Murray being too slow conveniently ignored this when Gill and the rest of the slower players on the Pens raised the cup.
I think you are heavily overstating Murray's PK skills.

There is room to have a slow guy your team, sure, but there is nothing besides hitting that Murray does better than any of our current top4 and a giant boatload of things he does worth, so as far as the bottom pairing go, I am happy to duck it out with Engo as the meanie.

Tyler Kennedy hoisted that cup too and yet apparently people here can't get rid of him fast enough for just about anyone.

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07-29-2012, 10:04 PM
  #918
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Originally Posted by Jules Winnfield View Post
It always amazes me how fast people forget how great Gill/Scuderi were for the Pens in the playoffs, especially on the PK.

Our defense is great for the transition game. It's soft as **** though for the playoff grind. Engelland might be tough but he was burned repeatedly in the Philly series.

Murray is the type of player the Pens are lacking for a playoff run. Doesn't matter if he's the 4th D, 5th, or 6th. He's miles better than Engelland and I'm an Engo supporter.

There's a reason Lidstrom would go to bat to get Murray on the Swedish olympic team. The guy is hard to play against.
Couldn't agree more!! Murray isn't a necessity for the regular season, but (IMO) he's the exact type of d-man we need in the playoffs. We don't need a top 4 guy, we just need someone to go out there and play good defensively with physicality.

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07-29-2012, 10:05 PM
  #919
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Originally Posted by kratzbuerste View Post
I think you are heavily overstating Murray's PK skills.

There is room to have a slow guy your team, sure, but there is nothing besides hitting that Murray does better than any of our current top4 and a giant boatload of things he does worth, so as far as the bottom pairing go, I am happy to duck it out with Engo as the meanie.
Maybe just as much as you discount his effectiveness due to speed?

Murray was 4th on the Sharks D in TOI and #2 on the PK. To think he wouldn't be an upgrade here over our current PKers on D is pretty laughable. An injury to Orpik happens, who is going to move people from the net on the PK? Engelland ranked 5th on the Pens D for PKing in the playoffs. It's not feasible to rely on him when Byslma doesn't.

Again, who cares if Murray plays in our top 4. I'm comparing him to the effectiveness the likes of Gill/Scuderi provided us. Murray can be our 5th/6th guy for all I care.

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07-29-2012, 10:09 PM
  #920
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Completely agreed about Lovejoy. His giveaway on the one Couturier goal was one of the worst I've seen in the Pens playoff history.

Regarding Engelland, Bylsma only put him out there for 11:29 a game. Lovejoy was out there for 10:32, almost a minute less. He barely trusted Engo more than Lovejoy. More so than that, I just don't believe that Bylsma has not trusted the 5th/6th guys the past 2 years in the playoffs. When some of our top 4 aren't performing, it really hurts the Pens when we don't have guys the coach feels he can put out there to eat up minutes.

I like Engelland...don't get me wrong. I just don't think Bylsma trusts playing him or any of our 5th/6th guys that much in the playoffs.
Just throwing it out there, but over the 5 PO games SJ had this year, Murray's TOI also dwinded to 11:18. That's obviously not saying anything about what Bylsma would think of him, but FWIW.

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07-29-2012, 10:16 PM
  #921
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Just throwing it out there, but over the 5 PO games SJ had this year, Murray's TOI also dwinded to 11:18. That's obviously not saying anything about what Bylsma would think of him, but FWIW.
Actually, Murray's TOI for the Sharks in the playoffs this year was 16:14. This was lower this year because of Justin Braun's emergence into the Sharks top 4. The Sharks love Braun. He's going to be a solid D for them for a long time. Murray was still #2 for the Sharks in the playoffs for PK TOI.

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07-29-2012, 10:19 PM
  #922
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Maybe just as much as you discount his effectiveness due to speed?

Murray was 4th on the Sharks D in TOI and #2 on the PK. To think he wouldn't be an upgrade here over our current PKers on D is pretty laughable. An injury to Orpik happens, who is going to move people from the net on the PK? Engelland ranked 5th on the Pens D for PKing in the playoffs. It's not feasible to rely on him when Byslma doesn't.
Again, who cares if Murray plays in our top 4. I'm comparing him to the effectiveness the likes of Gill/Scuderi provided us. Murray can be our 5th/6th guy for all I care.
Tell me more about how much time he spend on a PK that was considerably worse than ours. Where he ranked in SJ isn't a meaningful measure in itself.

So far Bylsma has not giving me any indication that he trusts Murray even a hair more than Engelland.

I care, because we have bottom pairing guys coming out the wazoo. What is wrong with giving Bortuzzo and/or Strait a chance to prove themselves at least until closer to the deadline? Especially if the other option is to trade a top9 forward, while having exactly 8 top9 forwards yourself prior to the trade.

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07-29-2012, 10:19 PM
  #923
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Actually, Murray's TOI for the Sharks in the playoffs this year was 16:14. This was lower this year because of Justin Braun's emergence into the Sharks top 4. The Sharks love Braun. He's going to be a solid D for them for a long time. Murray was still #2 for the Sharks in the playoffs for PK TOI.
his average was 16. He played 25, 17, 14, 13, and 11 minutes in that order. that's not a good sign.

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07-29-2012, 10:20 PM
  #924
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Actually, Murray's TOI for the Sharks in the playoffs this year was 16:14. This was lower this year because of Justin Braun's emergence into the Sharks top 4. The Sharks love Braun. He's going to be a solid D for them for a long time. Murray was still #2 for the Sharks in the playoffs for PK TOI.
That's the average TOI. Hence me saiyng dwindled to over the course. He played 11:18 in the last game. Boy, that trust in him just kept growing there.

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07-29-2012, 10:23 PM
  #925
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Tell me more about how much time he spend on a PK that was considerably worse than ours. Where he ranked in SJ isn't a meaningful measure in itself.

So far Bylsma has not giving me any indication that he trusts Murray even a hair more than Engelland.

I care, because we have bottom pairing guys coming out the wazoo. What is wrong with giving Bortuzzo and/or Strait a chance to prove themselves at least until closer to the deadline? Especially if the other option is to trade a top9 forward, while having exactly 8 top9 forwards yourself prior to the trade.
How the hell could Bylsma trust someone who isn't even on the team?

The only issue is, with Despres likely pencilled in, I doubt the Pens will roll with 2 rookies on D. If we're playing our 5th/6th guys 11 and 10 minutes a game in the playoffs, I'm sure Bylsma will be looking to squeeze the veterans even tighter.

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