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How long until the league tracks player movements on ice?

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Old
08-25-2015, 04:08 PM
  #1
m0ngr31
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How long until the league tracks player movements on ice?

How great would it be to have something like this with the NHL?

http://savvastjortjoglou.com/nba-pla...movements.html

I wish they were more accepting of tracking these kinds of things and other stats.

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08-25-2015, 10:10 PM
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Ryker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m0ngr31 View Post
How great would it be to have something like this with the NHL?

http://savvastjortjoglou.com/nba-pla...movements.html

I wish they were more accepting of tracking these kinds of things and other stats.
I think someone's already doing that, but I'm not sure about the extent. I don't think it's the league, though.

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08-26-2015, 09:04 AM
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IIRC, they're experimenting with the different providers/technologies during the upcoming season, and will make their pick by 16-17 campaign. Teams have been doing much more primitive versions of this privately for a minute (not chip-based-tracking, but detailed, action-by-action film review).

Being the last league to adopt this type of thing is one of Bettman's biggest errors, especially in a league currently defined by defensive system play. As a result, fans have less of an idea of what's going on, and the league itself has missed opportunities to identify small tweaks to open up the game.

Also, voting on awards with no concept of individual player usage/efficiency in 2015 is savagery.

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08-26-2015, 11:21 AM
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wgknestrick
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m0ngr31 View Post
How great would it be to have something like this with the NHL?

http://savvastjortjoglou.com/nba-pla...movements.html

I wish they were more accepting of tracking these kinds of things and other stats.
Technology, intelligence, and logic are just things the NHL rather keep their nose out of. Best to stick to good-ol-boy practices and record keeping.

IMO, they are 10 years from this and will only do this if a single company can handle the entire rollout themselves after receiving a big check effectively from NHL owners (who are notoriously stingy with their money).

If you were a pro hockey player (most likely meaning you sacrificed your entire scholastic years to play hockey), the NHL wants to put you in a position to make decisions about technology you couldn't possibly understand. The number of ex-players in NHL operations is staggering and most likely the reason they are so far behind.

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08-26-2015, 04:31 PM
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The Opposite is True

Quote:
Originally Posted by wgknestrick View Post
Technology, intelligence, and logic are just things the NHL rather keep their nose out of. Best to stick to good-ol-boy practices and record keeping.

IMO, they are 10 years from this and will only do this if a single company can handle the entire rollout themselves after receiving a big check effectively from NHL owners (who are notoriously stingy with their money).

If you were a pro hockey player (most likely meaning you sacrificed your entire scholastic years to play hockey), the NHL wants to put you in a position to make decisions about technology you couldn't possibly understand. The number of ex-players in NHL operations is staggering and most likely the reason they are so far behind.
Well the exact opposite is true. Seems the NHL, as announced a few weeks ago, signed an agreement with an outside company that will see the NHL teams receiving significant coin for all their data.

http://www.journaldemontreal.com/201...ouvelles-stats

Seems that the decision makers(including former players) understood very well the value of the technology and the value of the data generated by the league.

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08-26-2015, 11:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wgknestrick View Post
Technology, intelligence, and logic are just things the NHL rather keep their nose out of. Best to stick to good-ol-boy practices and record keeping.

IMO, they are 10 years from this and will only do this if a single company can handle the entire rollout themselves after receiving a big check effectively from NHL owners (who are notoriously stingy with their money).

If you were a pro hockey player (most likely meaning you sacrificed your entire scholastic years to play hockey), the NHL wants to put you in a position to make decisions about technology you couldn't possibly understand. The number of ex-players in NHL operations is staggering and most likely the reason they are so far behind.
Yeah, it's one big illuminati conspiracy

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08-27-2015, 09:02 PM
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The MLB partnership will play a huge role here, imo. All that needs to be done is to somehow integrate a tracking device into the NHL uniform/kit. All the other aspects are already monitored, the only caveat being that a lot of it is subjectively determind -- hits, shots, takes and gives, etc.

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08-29-2015, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HabsBlood View Post
The MLB partnership will play a huge role here, imo. All that needs to be done is to somehow integrate a tracking device into the NHL uniform/kit. All the other aspects are already monitored, the only caveat being that a lot of it is subjectively determind -- hits, shots, takes and gives, etc.
Please explain what you mean by the bolded. Tracking device could be used to determine zone times but equal zone times are not necessarily equal. There still is a subjective element as it pertains to the players technical positioning in a zone, positioning in a zone within the team game plan, proper situational positioning, etc.

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08-29-2015, 07:54 PM
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What he's saying (and he's correct) is that currently hits, takeaways and giveaways, and shots, are subjectively determined at the discretion of the official scorers.

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08-29-2015, 11:23 PM
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Did everyone suddenly forget this?

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08-30-2015, 02:07 PM
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Just wondering if "advanced stats" guys see possession time as a replacement for corsi since it displays possession greater?

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08-30-2015, 10:01 PM
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"Replacement" as far as doing what?

What are you trying to predict, or otherwise do, with these statistics?

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08-31-2015, 07:44 AM
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Is there some reading material about the "upside", so to speak, of what player tracking represents...?

I see things mentioned like subjectivity of giveaways and takeaways and stuff, but I'm a little miffed about making the connection to sticking a tracker on a player's jersey...I'd be curious as to what can be done with the information...

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08-31-2015, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor No View Post
"Replacement" as far as doing what?

What are you trying to predict, or otherwise do, with these statistics?
Current possession metrics measure one of the symptoms of possession rather than puck-on-stick time itself. It'll help us value players like Ryan Getzlaf - who doesn't correlate with tons of shot attempts for an elite first line offensive forward, but still leads the Ducks in on-ice offensive production - more accurately.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
Is there some reading material about the "upside", so to speak, of what player tracking represents...?

I see things mentioned like subjectivity of giveaways and takeaways and stuff, but I'm a little miffed about making the connection to sticking a tracker on a player's jersey...I'd be curious as to what can be done with the information...
It changes the entire statistical game.

We'd have an idea of the numerical value of every action taken on the ice. We'd have puck-on-stick usage stats that would create a new category of player efficiency stats. We'd be able to track the subtleties of how different coaches implement the same systems. And all of this would be quantifiable with hard data, instead of a few lines of text from an observer and a .gif that probably doesn't tell the whole story.

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08-31-2015, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
Is there some reading material about the "upside", so to speak, of what player tracking represents...?

I see things mentioned like subjectivity of giveaways and takeaways and stuff, but I'm a little miffed about making the connection to sticking a tracker on a player's jersey...I'd be curious as to what can be done with the information...
Looking at the link, there is some pretty neat data you could collect; for example:

Passing data:
Passes per 60
Pass speed
Pass distance
Pass efficiency (percentage of completed passes).

Skating data:
Skating speed
Distance skated.

Zone entry/exit data:
Zone entries/exits with control. or without control.
Efficiency of zone entry/exits


There's also the potential to evalute the systems teams use by looking at the location data. It should be possible to easily identify if a team is employing a trap or the number of forcheckers they send in. Perhaps even evaluate how specific players perform (in terms of things like zone exits/entries, or shot attemps for/against) against specific defensive systems.

Loved the little movements animation in the link; this could be really effective at breaking down a penalty kill for example.

From a coaching perspective, this would probably be really useful (ie in conjuction with video). Would make it really easy to review a game and quickly identify where your system broke down. Alternatively, it could really help in breaking down the oppositions defensive system mid game.

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08-31-2015, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
Current possession metrics measure one of the symptoms of possession rather than puck-on-stick time itself. It'll help us value players like Ryan Getzlaf - who doesn't correlate with tons of shot attempts for an elite first line offensive forward, but still leads the Ducks in on-ice offensive production - more accurately.
If you're using Corsi as a proxy for possession, then I agree that actual possession time would be superior.

However, a lot of the value of Corsi is that it has a high correlation with future success (orthogonal to its use as a possession approximation). I don't know if actual possession time is superior in this regard.

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08-31-2015, 02:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor No View Post
If you're using Corsi as a proxy for possession, then I agree that actual possession time would be superior.

However, a lot of the value of Corsi is that it has a high correlation with future success (orthogonal to its use as a possession approximation). I don't know if actual possession time is superior in this regard.
Well, if nothing else, that kind of tracking could reveal whether or not that;s the case.

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08-31-2015, 05:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
IIRC, they're experimenting with the different providers/technologies during the upcoming season, and will make their pick by 16-17 campaign. Teams have been doing much more primitive versions of this privately for a minute (not chip-based-tracking, but detailed, action-by-action film review).

Being the last league to adopt this type of thing is one of Bettman's biggest errors, especially in a league currently defined by defensive system play. As a result, fans have less of an idea of what's going on, and the league itself has missed opportunities to identify small tweaks to open up the game.

Also, voting on awards with no concept of individual player usage/efficiency in 2015 is savagery.
If that's one of Bettman's biggest errors, then he must be doing a pretty good job.

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08-31-2015, 06:11 PM
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Mike Farkas
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Oh, I see, so with this comes the tracking of player-to-puck, as well as just player tracking. Ok, maybe that's the link I was wondering about...yeah, if the puck tracking comes along with player tracking, then yeah, the whole world explodes...

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09-01-2015, 07:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finnish your Czech View Post
If that's one of Bettman's biggest errors, then he must be doing a pretty good job.
Not when that statistical lag goes hand-in-hand with the boringification of the sport and the undoing of the league's efforts to open up the game.

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09-01-2015, 07:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
Oh, I see, so with this comes the tracking of player-to-puck, as well as just player tracking. Ok, maybe that's the link I was wondering about...yeah, if the puck tracking comes along with player tracking, then yeah, the whole world explodes...
The NHL's tracking tech apparently uses RFID chips that can be embeded into pretty much anything; jersey, helmet, shoulder pads, pucks, even the sticks.

You could get unconventional stats like the speed of a player when he enters the zone, track things like cross crease pass attempts, passes leading to shots from the slot; all sorts of things that just aren't practically available today.

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09-01-2015, 08:33 AM
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Hate the idea. Hockey has become robotic enough. No need to kill players sneakiness too.

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09-01-2015, 09:06 AM
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Quote:
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Hate the idea. Hockey has become robotic enough. No need to kill players sneakiness too.
Unless the technology is used exclusively to develop defensive strategies, this won't happen. The league can also use the data to find minor rule changes to improve the game.

From a watchability standpoint, the NBA has exclusively benefitted from the technology.

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09-01-2015, 09:46 AM
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As someone that stopped watching the NBA regularly in the late 90's, can you provide an example of what you mean with the last time just so I can further understand its potential effects...?

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09-01-2015, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
As someone that stopped watching the NBA regularly in the late 90's, can you provide an example of what you mean with the last time just so I can further understand its potential effects...?
Player tracking has helped identify the most valuable spots on the floor and actions to take to get good shots from those locations, which has refined the motion-and-spacing offenses that have replaced late 90s hero ball and made the game more exciting. It's also helped find and valuate players that do stuff that contributes to winning that doesn't show up in box scores, like players shooting dismally against Roy Hibbert at the rim even if he's not recording blocks.

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