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Kansas City NHL Arena deal all but sealed

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Old
01-19-2005, 07:10 PM
  #76
Ismellofhockey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Iconoclast
Unfortunately it isn't a big corporate center and will likely never be.
Actually in recent years the high-tech industry has grown rapidly in Kanata (very close to the Corel Centre) and Ottawa had tremendous support emanating from that sector before the stock crash.

While it may not rival US cities or Toronto, it is growing and will eventually provide lots of income for the Sens. You only have to look at the arena's name to find proof.

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01-19-2005, 07:30 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by vespajet
Why is everyone picking on Atlanta as a hockey town? If it wasn't for the Atlanta Flames, there wouldn't be teams in Tampa, South Florida, Dallas, Raleigh, Nashville, and Phoenix.
You just answered your own question.

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01-19-2005, 07:53 PM
  #78
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Maybe this will help explain why the NHL is looking to these markets.

This is an analysis of the top economic performing large cities in the US for 2004. If you click on the city you will get a snapshot of population, etc. The chart ranks the Top 200 big cities:
http://bestcities.milkeninstitute.org/bc200.html

Take a look at Phoenix, Nashville, Tampa, Atlanta, Denver Raleigh/Durham, Columbus, etc. I dug this out for the die hard dreamers who actually think Winnipeg with its population of 650,000, stagnant economy and confiscatory tax regime would get a team in today's NHL. There are at least 50 US cities in front of Winnipeg.

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01-19-2005, 07:58 PM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Iconoclast
Being a big market is not defined by population. Your market is more defined by how many corporations there are to support your product. That's why Toronto will always be big market and Ottawa will be small market. Toronto is a business center. Ottawa is a government center. Toronto gets massive business support. Toronto has a huge corporation backing them. Toronto has a massive investment vehicle backing them. Toronto is money making machine. Ottawa? It's a government center.
This is what's flawed about Fischler's reasoning on the issue. The NHL is a gate driven league. I hope by this point Bettman has figured out it's probably better for the NHL to be a big fish in a small pond. Portland isn't a huge market, but before the Jailblazers it's fanbase for the NBA was fanatical. The NHL might be better off looking at Winnipeg, Milwaukee, Portland, Quebec and the like before just picking the next market at the top of the list.

Quote:
The same thing can be said about Washington and its population of 4,218,645. That's a huge population, but its not a corporate environment. Conversely, Denver and its 2,400,570 population has great corporate support as well as corporate ownership. They will be a bigger market because they have corporate support to fall back on, something the larger city of Washington does not. Thats the weakness of being a government center.
Wash also has the problem of turning over a good portion of it's population every four years. The problem has plagued the Bullets as well. the Skins and College B-Ball are the only sports that have gained a foothold.

Denver, also has the advantage of being sports mad. Natives and transplants. We're a bigger market than we look because of being geographicaly isolated as well. Denver has tons of fans in the Rockies and the Plains. According to SI's 50th anniversary poll the Avs are the favorite team in colorado (duh), Wyoming (our local counterpart to Canada), Nebraska (still trails cow tipping though), Utah, New Mexico (hold on, there's a NEW Mexico?) , Idaho, Montana and runs second in Kansas. The Avs also have a radio affiliate in South Dakota. That's 13.6 million people total and about 9 million outside of Colorado.

Quote:
That is also one of the reasons why Tampa and its 3,300,000 people will never be large market as well. Tampa has no serious corporate interests and has an economy based on service. While they have a great environment, a great team and a great building, there just isn't enough of a corporate neighborhood to support a hockey team in football mad Florida.

To me, Ottawa is a better market than a lot of American cities because of the way hockey is perceived north of the border. Unfortunately it isn't a big corporate center and will likely never be. That will hurt the corporate support and the Sens will have to survive on the loyalty of their fans (which they have in spades IMO).
Which is a big part of what's happened to the Quins. It's rare for anybody to blame Pittsburger's for the state of the team.

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Old
01-19-2005, 08:12 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Iconoclast
You think that Columbus, Nashville, Carolina, Florida, Anaheim, Pittsburgh (without Lemieux), Buffalo, etc. are big draws in Canada? Good lord, they are barely good draws in their own cities.
14,000 season ticket renewals in a lockout season
7th in the league in tickets sales
41 straight sell outs

What markets is this? Columbus.

get the facts before you lump Columbus with Nashville, Florida and Carolina.

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01-19-2005, 08:30 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cbjrocks100700
14,000 season ticket renewals in a lockout season
7th in the league in tickets sales
41 straight sell outs

What markets is this? Columbus.

get the facts before you lump Columbus with Nashville, Florida and Carolina.
what does that have to do with drawing power in canada? CBJ is toward the bottom, with Carolina and Nashville both ahead of them. Way...to make no point at all with irrelevant facts.

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01-19-2005, 08:35 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by nomorekids
what does that have to do with drawing power in canada? CBJ is toward the bottom, with Carolina and Nashville both ahead of them. Way...to make no point at all with irrelevant facts.
Pardon?????????????

You claimed that "they are barely good draws in their own cities." You were answered - Columbus appears to be a very good draw in its own city.

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01-19-2005, 08:49 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wetcoaster
Pardon?????????????

You claimed that "they are barely good draws in their own cities." You were answered - Columbus appears to be a very good draw in its own city.

i claimed no such thing. iconoclast was talking about no one in canada coming out to see those teams..and he made his post about columbus not belonging in the group.

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01-19-2005, 09:39 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Iconoclast
American metro areas are calculated more generously? Bull. That is nothing but another one of your fabricated lies. Canada and the U.S. use very similar systems and guidelines for census. Trying to change the focus of the argument again are you? Well let me set you straight.
If that's the case, show me proof that the metro areas are calculated similiarly. From everything I've read, US metro areas are based upon a smaller percentage of commuters then Canadian metros are based upon. But I've never seen an official government definition for either.

Set me straight if you wish, but at least provide some proof. I'm not going to take the word of someone with such a dubious record. Which leads me to...


Quote:
According to StatsCan 2001, METRO Ottawa has a population of 1,063,664, taking into account of over 300,000 people across the river in Hull Quebec. Ottawa itself is only 774,072.

http://www12.statcan.ca/english/cens...SR=3411&SRCH=1

http://www12.statcan.ca/english/cens...-C.cfm?CMA=505
That's right, Lanny. But here's where you lose me....

Quote:
METRO St. Louis, on the other hand, has a population of 2,594,800. That's the population for 2000. The projection for population in St. Louis for 2001 was 2,600,300+.

http://www.co.st-louis.mo.us/plan/asa/

http://stlouis.missouri.org/developm...tinfo/Pop.html

How are you going to make those numbers go away? St. Louis sits in the middle of nowhere'sville, so there is no mistaken where St. Louis begins and St. Louis ends. Its farm land, and then city. Sure gets confusing with all the urban sprawl in Missouri! Yup, I really missed the numbers, didn't I fool. Back to the drawing board junior. Bring something a little stronger than "Lanny MacDonald" next time you want to try and debate.
I just want to remind you of what I was quoting earlier...

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Iconoclast aka Lanny MacDonald
Kansas City Metro population is just under 2 million. Ottawa is less than half that.
Now why are you referring to St Louis when we were talking about Kansas City?

Are you just a really bad speller and can mistaken type "Kansas City" as "St Louis"? But that doesn't fly since you're quoting St Louis's numbers.

Are you getting elderly and have problems with your short term memory?

Or are you just being plain old dishonest? You know you're wrong but instead of being a man and admitting your mistake, you'll try and switch the argument around and hope no one notices. No wonder you're an ownership poodle. Those are the kind of tactics Bettman uses, but he's much better at it then you.

Maybe I wouldn't have even gotten into the debate if I had known I was debating with someone who is either senile or dishonest.

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Old
01-19-2005, 10:05 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by BlackRedGold
If that's the case, show me proof that the metro areas are calculated similiarly. From everything I've read, US metro areas are based upon a smaller percentage of commuters then Canadian metros are based upon. But I've never seen an official government definition for either.

Set me straight if you wish, but at least provide some proof. I'm not going to take the word of someone with such a dubious record. Which leads me to...

That's right, Lanny. But here's where you lose me....

I just want to remind you of what I was quoting earlier...

Now why are you referring to St Louis when we were talking about Kansas City?

Are you just a really bad speller and can mistaken type "Kansas City" as "St Louis"? But that doesn't fly since you're quoting St Louis's numbers.

Are you getting elderly and have problems with your short term memory?

Or are you just being plain old dishonest? You know you're wrong but instead of being a man and admitting your mistake, you'll try and switch the argument around and hope no one notices. No wonder you're an ownership poodle. Those are the kind of tactics Bettman uses, but he's much better at it then you.

Maybe I wouldn't have even gotten into the debate if I had known I was debating with someone who is either senile or dishonest.
For 2004 the population for St. Louis is reported as:
MSA Population: 2,639,978
http://bestcities.milkeninstitute.or...0&year=&ID=351

For 2004 the population for Kansas City is reported as:
MSA Population: 1,843,550
http://bestcities.milkeninstitute.or...0&year=&ID=309

Here is the current definition (2003) of MSA from the US OMB:
Quote:
Metropolitan Statistical Area - A Core Based Statistical Area associated with at least one urbanized area that has a population of at least 50,000. The Metropolitan Statistical Area comprises the central county or counties containing the core, plus adjacent outlying counties having a high degree of social and economic integration with the central county as measured through commuting.
http://www.ffiec.gov/cra/msa.htm
Also see
http://www.census.gov/population/www.../metrodef.html

Here is the Canadian defintion of our counterpart Census Metropolitan Areas:
Quote:
Census metropolitan area: Area consisting of one or more adjacent municipalities situated around a major urban core. To form a census metropolitan area, the urban core must have a population of at least 100,000.
http://www.statcan.ca/english/Pgdb/defdemo53a.htm

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01-19-2005, 10:16 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackRedGold

Are you just a really bad speller and can mistaken type "Kansas City" as "St Louis"? But that doesn't fly since you're quoting St Louis's numbers.

Are you getting elderly and have problems with your short term memory?
It was an honest mistake. Then again, it could have been a touch of oldtimers setting in. Most of my hills are behind me.

Wetcoaster has pointed out the Kansas City info. As you can see, almost double the size of metro Ottawa and more than double Ottawa alone. What it foes share with St. louis is the fact that it is in the middle of no where. You roll across Missouri and there is this huge city. Not a little run of small towns building into a megopolis like you get out east, just one big city in the heartland of America.

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01-19-2005, 10:24 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Iconoclast
It was an honest mistake. Then again, it could have been a touch of oldtimers setting in. Most of my hills are behind me.

Wetcoaster has pointed out the Kansas City info. As you can see, almost double the size of metro Ottawa and more than double Ottawa alone. What it foes share with St. louis is the fact that it is in the middle of no where. You roll across Missouri and there is this huge city. Not a little run of small towns building into a megopolis like you get out east, just one big city in the heartland of America.
Stats Can pegs Ottawa's CMA (now called Ottawa-Gatineau) population for 2004 at 1,145,500.

Hope that helps clarify the figures.

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Old
01-19-2005, 10:28 PM
  #88
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Oh so many comments, so little time

"You dont call 18 sellouts in 41 games last year 'regular sellouts'?"

I call it pathetic, in a Canadian market. Not to mention the lack of corporate sponsership this team has gotten since its rebirth.

"Also, if Ottawa had capacity of 17,500 like several rinks in the league do, we'd have 99% or 100% capacity every night."

And if my mother had a penis she would be my father. Neither here or there. Patheic rebuttal

"With many teams I don't blame fans for going either, if they play boring hockey. For many years Ottawa played really boring clutch hockey"

If thats the excuse given, I'd personally pull the team. New Jersey does not support the team because its in an old non hockey friendly building. Ottawa does not have that excuse at all

"And of course this was the time the Ballard Leafs and Dead Things weren't drawing either"

Thats right way back then it was a 15 year wait for seasons tickets for Leaf games plus something like 12 years in a row of complete sellouts. I can tell you really did not read up on this before you typed it




Good to see you back Lanny

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01-19-2005, 10:35 PM
  #89
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yikes

I know for a fact that OTtawa is 3rd in suite sales in the leageu (at very competitive prices for the suites) and have the most ads in ANY RINK IN THE LEAGUE.

Now anyone with a brain realizes that suites are TARGETED towards CORPORATIONS and ADS are paid for by CORPORATIONS!


You call that pathetic? Are you an idiot?

The only "corporate" problems is that our season ticket base (at 10,100 at last check) is about 2000 under what the team would like. Big f'ing deal. The teams only 13 years old, most of their soon to be target market is just growing up and graduating from university... Ottawa came around in 1992 and a lot of their fanbase was the "new generation", people that were 8-13 or so back then and are now old enough to purchase seats and season tickets if they are still in the Ottawa area.

No wonder i put Lanny and now you on ignore. Same person.

Disgusting.

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01-19-2005, 10:39 PM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scaredsensfan
I know for a fact that OTtawa is 3rd in suite sales in the leageu (at very competitive prices for the suites) and have the most ads in ANY RINK IN THE LEAGUE.

Now anyone with a brain realizes that suites are TARGETED towards CORPORATIONS and ADS are paid for by CORPORATIONS!


You call that pathetic? Are you an idiot?

The only "corporate" problems is that our season ticket base (at 10,100 at last check) is about 2000 under what the team would like. Big f'ing deal. The teams only 13 years old, most of their soon to be target market is just growing up and graduating from university... Ottawa came around in 1992 and a lot of their fanbase was the "new generation", people that were 8-13 or so back then and are now old enough to purchase seats and season tickets if they are still in the Ottawa area.

No wonder i put Lanny and now you on ignore. Same person.

Disgusting.
Um much like the figures you have tossed around about population and other things. You are wrong on that cause too.

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01-19-2005, 10:47 PM
  #91
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Point out where I was wrong, then.

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01-19-2005, 10:56 PM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scaredsensfan
Point out where I was wrong, then.
Um that I was Lanny or that you blocked me

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01-19-2005, 10:58 PM
  #93
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Iwas refering to Iconoclast actually.

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01-19-2005, 11:42 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by NataSatan666
Good to see you back Lanny
Thanks, I think.

Betcha didn't think we'd be on the same side of an argument?

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01-19-2005, 11:47 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by scaredsensfan
Iwas refering to Iconoclast actually.
Like that would surprise me? You seem like a guy that would prefer to run from a fight than have to stand up and take your lumps, so the ignore button is your best defense. Your choice and one you have to live with, being incapable of defining or defending a thought.

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Old
01-20-2005, 02:49 AM
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Iconoclast
Thanks, I think.

Betcha didn't think we'd be on the same side of an argument?
Well we did agree about a certain incident in Vancouver last year. Therefore I call it headway

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