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research request value of Biron + Boyle for Olsen + pick

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07-31-2012, 12:15 AM
  #76
sketch22
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Originally Posted by Chris Hansen View Post
Alright bud, if you're honestly that delusional it's just pointless trying to argue with you. I tell you, some of you guys are such homers... you can't even admit a player on another team is better than someone on the Hawks, even when it's pretty obvious. Ah well, at least not all of us are that way.
He is better than some people on the Hawks. Just not good enough to push Bolland from the third line or take a top 9 wing spot. I still have not seen any statistics that show that he can replace Bolland or Shaw on the third line. When you all can come up with actual evidence to support your claim then I'll agree with you, until then I will still be arguing that Boyle would be an overpaid 4th liner on the Hawks.

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07-31-2012, 12:16 AM
  #77
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And let's not laud Kruger for scoring as many points as Boyle when Kruger played about two-thirds of the year with fantastic talent and Boyle played with third liners (and that's being generous).

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07-31-2012, 12:29 AM
  #78
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And let's not laud Kruger for scoring as many points as Boyle when Kruger played about two-thirds of the year with fantastic talent and Boyle played with third liners (and that's being generous).
I wasn't trying to. I was trying to point out that Kruger's Corsi QoC numbers were similar to Boyle's. To illustrate that Boyle's average competition was inline with Kruger's as an example people on this board are more likely to know. The other poster is the one who posted the points, hits, and everything else. But I will say that if Boyle came to the Hawks and only got 30 points people would tear him apart.

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07-31-2012, 12:41 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by sketch22 View Post
I wasn't trying to. I was trying to point out that Kruger's Corsi QoC numbers were similar to Boyle's. To illustrate that Boyle's average competition was inline with Kruger's as an example people on this board are more likely to know. The other poster is the one who posted the points, hits, and everything else. But I will say that if Boyle came to the Hawks and only got 30 points people would tear him apart.
If Boyle came to the Hawks and put up 30 points on the third line... well, given his career so far, about 15 of those would be goals. Personally I'd be just fine with a 15-15-30 guy putting up 200+ hits, taking faceoffs for Bolland, and being a strong presence on the PK. I don't think any fan with even a shred of hockey knowledge would tear that player apart.

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07-31-2012, 12:59 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Chris Hansen View Post
If Boyle came to the Hawks and put up 30 points on the third line... well, given his career so far, about 15 of those would be goals. Personally I'd be just fine with a 15-15-30 guy putting up 200+ hits, taking faceoffs for Bolland, and being a strong presence on the PK. I don't think any fan with even a shred of hockey knowledge would tear that player apart.
You would be fine with him being on the third line while Shaw or Stalberg is on the fourth line? To me it is a waste for one of those two to be on the fourth line for a guy like Boyle.

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07-31-2012, 01:02 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by sketch22 View Post
You would be fine with him being on the third line while Shaw or Stalberg is on the fourth line? To me it is a waste for one of those two to be on the fourth line for a guy like Boyle.
Stalberg-Toews-Hossa
Saad-Kane-Sharp
Shaw-Bolland-Boyle

None of them are on the fourth line.

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07-31-2012, 01:37 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Chris Hansen View Post
Stalberg-Toews-Hossa
Saad-Kane-Sharp
Shaw-Bolland-Boyle

None of them are on the fourth line.
That would be your preferred lineup? If Kane plays center I'd rather have:
Sharp-Toews-Stalberg
Carcillo-Kane-Hossa
Saad-Bolland-Shaw
and keep Olsen.
But I doubt Q will play Kane at center to start the year unless someone is injured. He seems to have a bit of a man crush on Kruger.

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07-31-2012, 01:42 AM
  #83
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Carcillo is not a top-6 forward... I have no idea why people continue to act like he is.

Anyway, if you're so desperate to keep the seventh (possibly eighth, depending on Montador) defenseman with the organization, then that's your prerogative - I'm obviously not going to change your mind.

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07-31-2012, 01:51 AM
  #84
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Carcillo is not a top-6 forward... I have no idea why people continue to act like he is.
Because at the start of last season he showed that he can be productive on a line with Kane and Hossa. Kane and Hossa don't need help creating offense, they just need someone who can skate well enough to keep up and win the puck on the forecheck, thats Carcillo. Plus if anyone lays a hand on Kane, Carcillo will go after them.

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07-31-2012, 01:53 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by sketch22 View Post
Because at the start of last season he showed that he can be productive on a line with Kane and Hossa. Kane and Hossa don't need help creating offense, they just need someone who can skate well enough to keep up and win the puck on the forecheck, thats Carcillo. Plus if anyone lays a hand on Kane, Carcillo will go after them.
His fearsome 2 goals in 28 games last season don't exactly mark a guy who belongs in the top-6 of any team that can truly be called a contender.

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07-31-2012, 02:10 AM
  #86
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His fearsome 2 goals in 28 games last season don't exactly mark a guy who belongs in the top-6 of any team that can truly be called a contender.
His job wasn't to score goals. His job was go hard on the forecheck, get the puck to Kane or Hossa, and not allow anyone to mess with the skill players. Kane and Hossa did exceptionally well with him on their line creating space for them. Carcillo was strictly a 3rd wheel but that's all they needed on that line. And incidentally 2 goals and 9 assists in 28 games is 32 points over 82 games and he wasn't always with those two.

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07-31-2012, 02:27 AM
  #87
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What if Carcillo blows his knee out and misses most of the season? Would be nice to have a deeper forward group, injuries or not.

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07-31-2012, 02:43 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Chris Hansen View Post
His fearsome 2 goals in 28 games last season don't exactly mark a guy who belongs in the top-6 of any team that can truly be called a contender.
i guess i see where you're coming from, but that carcillo kane hossa line was pretty damn good.

extremely balanced. hossa's scoring and great two way play, kane's vision, playmaking, and finding hossa for the shot, and carcillo there to protect kane and even hossa if he needs it. you know people aren't going to go after them as much with carcillo on the ice. and the less kane is intimidated, the more productive he gets. plus carcillo has some skill for an agitator. had 11 pts, was +10, had 76 hits in 28 games, solid skating, at least enough to keep up. was on pace for like 35-40 points. and like someone else said, great on the forecheck cause you know kane isn't going into any corners or coming up big along the boards.

that's why i'd almost prefer kane at center. he's so good in open ice, at creating chances, and isn't so great along the boards. the more he has control of the puck, the better. with hossa on his right, his lack of D wouldn't be as much of a problem. plus he can still improve in that area. you don't need to be tough necessarily to be productive in the D zone and at backchecking

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07-31-2012, 02:45 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
What if Carcillo blows his knee out and misses most of the season? Would be nice to have a deeper forward group, injuries or not.
Then you promote Shaw to the second line and promote Bickell from the fourth line. Or you call up Pirri and move Kane to wing. Or you move Kruger to 2C, move Kane to the first line, and Sharp to the second. The Hawks already have plenty of options at the forward position they don't need to trade away their only NHL ready D prospect for more.

What if Hammer blows his knee out and misses most of the season? If you trade away Olsen there isn't any one else in Rockford right now who is ready for consistent NHL action. So we would all be praying that no one else on D gets injured or its Shawn Lalonde time.

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07-31-2012, 06:17 AM
  #90
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You still haven't heard? Trading even a single Blackhawk prospect is a capital crime to... certain posters. And they will belittle anything the Hawks are getting in return, even if that player (or players) are pretty damn good, like Boyle.
Boyle is nothing more than a bottom 6 player that would be our #4 C and playing on the PK. That's not worth giving up your Top D prospect that is ready to play in the NHL...

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His fearsome 2 goals in 28 games last season don't exactly mark a guy who belongs in the top-6 of any team that can truly be called a contender.
The team played a lot worse with Carcillo out. They lost a lot of heart and effort. Carcillo played great for that short period of time and the line he was on scored. Remember that Kane Spinorama Pass that resulted in a Hossa Goal? Watch it and tell me that this goal happens with Frolik or Krüger on that line

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Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
What if Carcillo blows his knee out and misses most of the season? Would be nice to have a deeper forward group, injuries or not.
that's why you have 5 NHL ready prospects waiting for their chance in Rockford

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07-31-2012, 07:53 AM
  #91
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We used the complete opposite strategy the Cup year though. I prefer something closer to that.

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07-31-2012, 10:04 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
We used the complete opposite strategy the Cup year though. I prefer something closer to that.
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Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
We used the complete opposite strategy the Cup year though. I prefer something closer to that.
I'm not sure about that strategy. Pahlsson, Khabibulin, and Havlat came off the books. Khabibulin was never replaced, Pahlsson was replaced with an aging Madden (better fit but not necessarily the better player) and Havlat was swapped out for Hossa at a marginal cost increase.

They sat back and waited in many respects even though some type of cap hell was coming if they replaced most of the skill that was coming off the books.

The overall improvement from 09' was coming from the experience of so many young players more so than FA spending. It was a very different set of circumstances, I don't think there are many comparisons.

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07-31-2012, 10:11 AM
  #93
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I'm not sure about that strategy. Pahlsson, Khabibulin, and Havlat came off the books. Khabibulin was never replaced, Pahlsson was replaced with an aging Madden (better fit but not necessarily the better player) and Havlat was swapped out for Hossa at a marginal cost increase.

They sat back and waited in many respects even though some type of cap hell was coming if they replaced most of the skill that was coming off the books.

The overall improvement from 09' was coming from the experience of so many young players more so than FA spending. It was a very different set of circumstances, I don't think there are many comparisons.
The team had awesome forward depth. This one doesn't. So...we need to go and get some. Simple as that. How they all get there is irrevelent IMO, just get it here.

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07-31-2012, 10:48 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
The team had awesome forward depth. This one doesn't. So...we need to go and get some. Simple as that. How they all get there is irrevelent IMO, just get it here.
I hear ya, and I agree that there's plenty to be frustrated about, but I think the point of some many of the disagreements in discussion is that how they get there is relevant. I tend to side with the lower risk approach until they're down to one or two significant issues to address because so many gms have fallen on their face taking the short term, high risk approach.

I really don't think they even know what their biggest problems are yet. It could be coaching, special teams, goalies, size, abrasiveness, defense, 2nd line center, etc. I really don't like them burning their limited assets to overpay just to fill one of those issues that may not even be one of the 3 biggest problems. I want them all addressed.

Anyway, back to the point of the thread, I'm not a fan of trading Olsen until they're more confident that he's being moved to fill an actual problem area. I'm not convinced Boyle addresses any significant problem. While I think Biron is a better goalie than Emery, I don't trust that advantage to hold up in a new city, system, and new skaters in front of him. I don't think Biron does anything to help them win games. If the Hawks have 7 dmen healthy, I'm perfectly content to see Olsen go to address a defined priority to help them win games. Boyle doesn't do that right now, in my opinion, until the roster changes certain ways.

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07-31-2012, 01:05 PM
  #95
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Man, if it was just two fourth round picks instead of Olsen and a 4th, I have a feeling some of you would still be saying no

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07-31-2012, 01:06 PM
  #96
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Man, if it was just two fourth round picks instead of Olsen and a 4th, I have a feeling some of you would still be saying no
Yeah, I was just thinking the same thing. What do we have to do, screw the other team over so bad where they won't trade with us anymore to make it an acceptable deal?

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07-31-2012, 01:13 PM
  #97
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Yeah, I was just thinking the same thing. What do we have to do, screw the other team over so bad where they won't trade with us anymore to make it an acceptable deal?
Heh, seems like it. It's no wonder a lot of these people are always saying we can't blame Bowman for not making a trade or a significant signing. If they are overvaluing current Hawks players this badly (hell, Olsen isn't even a roster player by the technical definition - he probably won't be starting on opening day and will be in Rockford), then why make a trade or signing? The Hawks already have the best players in the NHL at every position, seemingly.
At least, that is their mindset. Exaggerated for effect, yes, but generally speaking that is exactly what it is.

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07-31-2012, 01:16 PM
  #98
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Yeah, you have to have your own personal mindset. If you completely adapt your thinking to Bowman's words and actions, it just won't make any sense.

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07-31-2012, 01:19 PM
  #99
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Oh well, we're all on here just for fun, anyway - it's like not any of our endless arguments on this Blackhawk board make any sort of real-world difference

I just hope everyone in this organizations smartens up before yet another year is wasted. Hossa, Sharp, and Keith aren't young at all by NHL standards anymore.

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07-31-2012, 01:21 PM
  #100
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Oh well, we're all on here just for fun, anyway - it's like not any of our endless arguments on this Blackhawk board make any sort of real-world difference
If we ALL (entire fanbase) thought the same way and felt strongly about it, I do believe it could make an impact on what actually happens. It's happened before. But us, we'll never achieve that.

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