So your basic reasoning to why Ennis or Hodgson are untradeable is because they're unproven?
If you're really worried about the absolute worst case scenerio, then yeah, I'd rather have Bobby Ryan and 3 guys that maybe can't center a top 6 line than no Bobby Ryan and 4 guys who maybe can't center a top 6 line. At least Bobby Ryan is still a tradeable asset. He's a top 5 LW in the league. In the latter, you're just SOL.
Well, you presume in your first post that all 4 centers turn out to be great. In which case you're better off getting Ryan. You assume in your second post that all four centers end up being busts, in which case you're also better off getting Ryan.
I would presume something in the middle: that some of them will pan out and some won't, and since center is the most important (skating) position in the game and the one the Sabres are thinnest at, I think you hang onto your prospects and make sure you can fill that need. Especially because you just spent five years ****ing it up. And even more so, considering you don't have a need at wing. You're sacrificing something you need desperately for something you don't need all that badly.
I think we've both communicated our philosophies and just happen to see this one differently.
EDIT: But perhaps the difference in our opinions can be reduced to the fact that you see Bobby Ryan as a top 5 LW in the game.
First, most people list Ryan as a RW. There are at least 10 LWs I'd rather have than Bobby Ryan: Sedin, Ovechkin, Kovalchuk, Patrick Sharp, Zach Parise, Rick Nash, James Neal, Loui Eriksson, Hank Zetterberg, Evander Kane....
There are at least a bunch RWs that I'd rather have than him, too: Giroux, Kessel, Hossa, Gaborik, Eberle, Corey Perry...but put it this way: he was 64th in league scoring last year. Don't see how that makes him top 5 in any category.
If Ryan was a top 5 winger in the NHL, I'd trade any of our center prospects for him, too.
And even more so, considering you don't have a need at wing. You're sacrificing something you need desperately for something you don't need all that badly.
This is number one where we differ and I think it's the most important. I think to win a Cup, we need more elite players. I don't think the model we've had of above average, 'B' grade players all around just cuts it for us anymore. We need some A's. And I believe Ryan is an elite, 'A' list player. You look at it positionally as centers vs wingers. I'm looking at it as in upgrade in the overall talent. And I think we do desperately need that talent.
Quote:
EDIT: But perhaps the difference in our opinions can be reduced to the fact that you see Bobby Ryan as a top 5 LW in the game.
First, most people list Ryan as a RW. There are at least 10 LWs I'd rather have than Bobby Ryan: Sedin, Ovechkin, Kovalchuk, Patrick Sharp, Zach Parise, Rick Nash, James Neal, Loui Eriksson, Hank Zetterberg, Evander Kane....
There are at least a bunch RWs that I'd rather have than him, too: Giroux, Kessel, Hossa, Gaborik, Eberle, Corey Perry...but put it this way: he was 64th in league scoring last year. Don't see how that makes him top 5 in any category.
If Ryan was a top 5 winger in the NHL, I'd trade any of our center prospects for him, too.
I'm not going to make a list of who I'd rather have or not have. I don't agree with half your list but that's all subjective anyway.
The part I cannot agree on is that 64th in league scoring means he doesn't have more to offer as an all-around player. First of all, he had a down year last year - he's had more points in previous years and is certainly capable of doing more than last year again. He still has had 4 consecutive 30 goal seasons. I think that puts him in a very small company of players. If he were on the Sabres, even in his down year he would have led the team in goals and been third in points. His 113 hits would put him second only to Kaleta in that department.
But lastly, if you think just the points are all that matters, then Miro Satan has outscored Milan Lucic by a wide margin over his career. Who is more valuable and the guy you would you rather have on your team?
This is number one where we differ and I think it's the most important. I think to win a Cup, we need more elite players. I don't think the model we've had of above average, 'B' grade players all around just cuts it for us anymore. We need some A's. And I believe Ryan is an elite, 'A' list player. You look at it positionally as centers vs wingers. I'm looking at it as in upgrade in the overall talent. And I think we do desperately need that talent.
I'm not going to make a list of who I'd rather have or not have. I don't agree with half your list but that's all subjective anyway.
The part I cannot agree on is that 64th in league scoring means he doesn't have more to offer as an all-around player. First of all, he had a down year last year - he's had more points in previous years and is certainly capable of doing more than last year again. He still has had 4 consecutive 30 goal seasons. I think that puts him in a very small company of players. If he were on the Sabres, even in his down year he would have led the team in goals and been third in points.
But lastly, if you think just the points are all that matters, then Miro Satan has outscored Milan Lucic by a wide margin over his career. Who is more valuable and the guy you would you rather have on your team?
Yeah, I just don't see him as an A-lister. I think he'd rotate with Pommer back and forth off the top line. He brings more physicality, but he's not Milan Lucic. On that point, Miro Satan outscored Milan by a wide margin, with like a decade more in the league, so I don't get that comparison. Lucic's been putting up Satan-like scoring numbers the last couple years.
I think Ryan has probably hit his ceiling and will stay a 30 goal, 60 point guy. He's been there for four years. He was a top prospect. He's not the late blooming type, I think. Look at the top 30 scorers in the NHL - fully 20 of them either were under 25 or put up numbers within 3 points of their career high by the time they were 25. It's the exception rather than the rule that guys start blooming around 27. So I think you get the player he is today when you trade for him, and the player he is today doesn't strike me as elite. Not elite enough to trade away your top player at your weakest position.
You're right, if you did Ryan for Ennis plus prospects and picks, it would be an upgrade in overall talent, at least for today. But I don't think it would be a large enough upgrade to counterbalance the positional problems you'd be exacerbating.
Our problem hasn't been playmakers ..... our problem has been players burying their chances.
Ryan addresses that problem.
Does it create another one by dealing Hodgson? Yes... but it would be temporary and an easy fix.
More talent/physicality/certainty >>>>> Potential/position of weakness.
Was Hodgson an easy fix? I feel like we waited 5 years for that deal. I feel like top 6 centers are probably the hardest players to acquire through trade. And while Buffalo's problem has been more finishers than playmakers, it's been more centermen than either of those two.
Was Hodgson an easy fix? I feel like we waited 5 years for that deal. I feel like top 6 centers are probably the hardest players to acquire through trade.
I think you could fairly say two of our biggest problems have been lack of finishing and lack of forwards playing responsibly in their own zone. The latter is most significantly the center's job. If you have 11 guys who only know how to dangle at their own blue line and Jason Pominville, you've got a problem.
I agree....somewhat. But your assumption is Hodgson fills those 2 needs (Top 6 Center and responsible in own zone) Im convinced of neither when it comes to Hodgson.
I have legitimate concerns about Ennis and injury. This isn't a "little guys can't play hockey" post... just looking at Ennis and looking at other title guys, Ennis is a lot more slight of build. Briere, St. Louis, even the much shorter Gerbe outweigh him......
I don't know if he's the kind of player you can count on being healthy/effective for 82 games, or the conference finals.
It must be so boring to have to create opinions about players you don't watch to support your lofty opinions of young Sabres talent.
I get not wanting to trade the assets necessary for Ryan. I get the value of center potential... But eberytime that pov goes down the "Ryan is done developing" or " Ryan isn't an elite talent" path... Everyone involved starts to sound silly
If Murray's asking price is really that high, maybe Ryan doesn't get dealt. Now you have time to see how the G-men/Hodgson/Ennis all progress. And then you can turn around and make that deal later, if we see that our center situation is strong enough.
Or you just play hardball. The fact a deal hasn't gotten done pretty much means that no GM is willing to pay their price...so they have to come down off their asking price (like Howson did with Nash).
If Murray's asking price is really that high, maybe Ryan doesn't get dealt. Now you have time to see how the G-men/Hodgson/Ennis all progress. And then you can turn around and make that deal later, if we see that our center situation is strong enough.
Or you just play hardball. The fact a deal hasn't gotten done pretty much means that no GM is willing to pay their price...so they have to come down off their asking price (like Howson did with Nash).
I think it has more to do with Murry waiting on Doan....to drive Ryans price up even higher.
It must be so boring to have to create opinions about players you don't watch to support your lofty opinions of young Sabres talent.
I get not wanting to trade the assets necessary for Ryan. I get the value of center potential... But eberytime that pov goes down the "Ryan is done developing" or " Ryan isn't an elite talent" path... Everyone involved starts to sound silly
Why are your opinions that he is an elite talent or that he's not done developing any less silly?
Ryan is such a superstar and leader that even surrounded with low level talent he has led the Ducks to great heights. We should throw everything at the Ducks to get this phenom.....Really? He is a good first line winger but no superstar--let's not go overboard.
Ryan is such a superstar and leader that even surrounded with low level talent he has led the Ducks to great heights. We should throw everything at the Ducks to get this phenom.....Really? He is a good first line winger but no superstar--let's not go overboard.
I don't comprehend how you think it "destroys" anything. It was simple to fix once Reiger realized Roy/Hecht/Gaustad were not the answer.
We gave up Kassian for Hodgson ...simple enough for me.
We can find a serviceable center to replace Hodgson.
If we struggle this year...so be it. Address it next year and we'll have a better understanding of where Grigs and Gergs are at that point.
You really think its that easy? Like someone else posted, we waited 5 years for that hodgson deal, we got very lucky vancouver was high on kassian. You think darcy hadnt been trying to get a center the last 5 years? You think he just suddenly realized it at the deadline so whamoo we brought in hodgson just like that.
I have legitimate concerns about Ennis and injury. This isn't a "little guys can't play hockey" post... just looking at Ennis and looking at other title guys, Ennis is a lot more slight of build. Briere, St. Louis, even the much shorter Gerbe outweigh him......
I don't know if he's the kind of player you can count on being healthy/effective for 82 games, or the conference finals.
Has he ever had problems besides tweaking his ankle last year?
Gerbe's stronger, but he probably gets injured more often. I won't worry about Ennis' health until it's actually a problem.
If Murray's asking price is really that high, maybe Ryan doesn't get dealt. Now you have time to see how the G-men/Hodgson/Ennis all progress. And then you can turn around and make that deal later, if we see that our center situation is strong enough.
Or you just play hardball. The fact a deal hasn't gotten done pretty much means that no GM is willing to pay their price...so they have to come down off their asking price (like Howson did with Nash).
This. Ryan isn't going to make us instantly a contender since there's pretty much no way I see us making a deal that doesn't create another hole somewhere else.
He's a good player, but there will be players of his ilk available again. I have no problem with Darcy sitting on his hands and seeing how what youth we have pans out before making a big move like that.
You really think its that easy? Like someone else posted, we waited 5 years for that hodgson deal, we got very lucky vancouver was high on kassian. You think darcy hadnt been trying to get a center the last 5 years? You think he just suddenly realized it at the deadline so whamoo we brought in hodgson just like that.
I think Darcy believed in the Roy/ Connolly/ Hecht / Gaustad plan. I also believe Darcy played things conservatively as a result of the ownership.
As for waiting for 5 years for the Hodgson deal...... I sure as hell wasn't waiting for 5 years for Hodgson. Hodgson will be a nice player but imo that's all he'll be nice...and "nice" players are replaceable.
I just dont comprehend how we wanna throw away what it took us so long to build
