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Is Mario's 1995-96 Season a little overrated?

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Old
07-29-2012, 01:00 PM
  #1
Stars23*
 
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Is Mario's 1995-96 Season a little overrated?

No offense to the one of the best point producers of all time but I mean how does a guy who scores 69g + 92a (160pts) in 70games only have a plus 10 rating?

He's scoring over 2pts a game and is only +10? And about half his goals and points came on the powerplay essentially?

He had an outstanding season on paper but he wasn't playing with scrubs his whole career and not that year especially

And I noticed that in the playoffs that year his goal production went down about 50%.

This exactly happened in the 2000-01 Season where he dominated PPG and high in goals (on the powerplay mainly) and in the postseaon he had a terrible postseaon compared to the regular season... So would players take it easy on Lemieux during the regular season?

Lemieux is one of the best offensive player of all time but somethig seems a little off about those seasons.

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07-29-2012, 01:03 PM
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Mr. T
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stars23 View Post
No offense to the one of the best point producers of all time but I mean how does a guy who scores 69g + 92a (160pts) in 70games and only have a plus 10 rating?

He's scoring over 2pts a game and is only +10? And about half his goals and points came on the powerplay essentially?

He had an outstanding season on paper but he wasn't playing with scrubs his who career.

And I noticed that that in the playoffs that year his goal productim went down about 50%.

This exactly happened in the 2000-01 Season where he dominated PPG and high in goals (on the powerplay mainly) and in the postseaon he had a terrible postseaon compared to the regular season... So would players take it easy on Lemieux during the regular season?

Lemieux is one of the best offensive player of all time but somethig seems a little off about those seasons.
+/- is far more important than scoring.

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07-29-2012, 01:05 PM
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I Hate Chris Butler
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It's 160 points. Who gives a damn about his +/-?

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07-29-2012, 01:08 PM
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King King
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Hmm, I'm not sure what you're asking here.

The guy sat out the entire year with injury, then comes back and puts up a 2ppg pace, and that's why he's lauded for it. Scoring at that pace is already an incredible achievement, regardless of how much you cash in on the PP. +/- alone doesn't define a season.

He also put up 27 points in 18 games those playoffs, and finished 2nd in scoring behind Sakic despite not making the finals. His goal scoring pace wasn't as it was in some of his earlier seasons but he still had an incredible season and playoffs.

Guy deserved that Hart.

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07-29-2012, 01:10 PM
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Godot
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He scored 160 pts in 70 games. Who gives a rat's ass what his +/- was? You want an overrated stat, it's that.

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07-29-2012, 01:10 PM
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Oh boy.

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Old
07-29-2012, 01:16 PM
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What?! It's 161 in 70 games btw and what?! The guy had 40 points in his first 12 games (12-16-24-40)... and was one of the reasons the Pens were such a successful club that year. Not only did they make the playoffs, but they were 5 games from winning the Stanley Cup. Still am heart broken that Florida beat them. Ugh... but to say his season was overrated?! WOW! Especially with his health woes. I can't believe the gull of some fans. Shocked.... just shocked!

How about Gretzky winning the Hart trophy over Lemieux in the 1988-89 season. Gretz' had 54 goals and 168 points to Lemieux's 85 goals and 199 points. That's a difference of 31 points, and he played in fewer games. His linemates then were Quinn and Brown (woooo), and he took a Penguins team to its first Stanley Cup playoffs in nearly a decade. If you're going to start spouting off what's overrated... you can start with Gretz taking home the Hart that year.

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07-29-2012, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TyutinMyOwnHorn View Post
He scored 160 pts in 70 games. Who gives a rat's ass what his +/- was? You want an overrated stat, it's that.
This, the dude rocked that year and who knows when anyone will ever be come close to this ever again let alone with 200+ Gretzky seasons.

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07-29-2012, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stars23 View Post
No offense to the one of the best point producers of all time but I mean how does a guy who scores 69g + 92a (160pts) in 70games only have a plus 10 rating?

He's scoring over 2pts a game and is only +10? And about half his goals and points came on the powerplay essentially?

He had an outstanding season on paper but he wasn't playing with scrubs his whole career and not that year especially

And I noticed that in the playoffs that year his goal production went down about 50%.

This exactly happened in the 2000-01 Season where he dominated PPG and high in goals (on the powerplay mainly) and in the postseaon he had a terrible postseaon compared to the regular season... So would players take it easy on Lemieux during the regular season?

Lemieux is one of the best offensive player of all time but somethig seems a little off about those seasons.
Gretzky in 1988/1989: 168 pts, +15. In 1989/1990: 142 pts, +8. In 1993/1994: 130 pts, -25.

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07-29-2012, 01:37 PM
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unifiedtheory
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When you put up those numbers +/- should be ignored. dude was a dominant force.

It's funny though, whenever Mario's name comes up I get to laugh at his hypocrisy and laugh at his statistics, which in some instances are just silly.

His final year at Laval is hilarious.

70 GP, 133 G, 149 AS, 282 PTS.
1.9 Goals per game
2.1 Assists per game.

Silly.

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Old
07-29-2012, 02:16 PM
  #11
BLASPHEMOUS
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Plus-minus is the most important statistic in hockey. I think player salaries should be determined by them.

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07-29-2012, 02:42 PM
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I find it funny when people ignore +/-. Let's say we ignore Powerplays. If you are a minus player that means that you have hurt your team more than helped your team (Remember, I sad ignore PP). Of course this doesn't apply to players in certain roles, such as defensive players playing against top lines. But it sure as heck is worth something when it comes to scoring line players. Of course it is not just about you but also your whole line but anyway, if you are a minus player, you have not been concentrating on the defensive side of the game enough (again...if you are on a scoring line).

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07-29-2012, 02:50 PM
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Its a shame everyone posting got so offended for no reason. I guess discussing history is not cool on HF, you have to say he is amazing and thats it.


Im curious as to why he only had a plus minus so low. Was he getting scored on a ton, you would think with 200 points you would be like plus 30.

I didnt watch the penguins in that year so im curious to hear people who watched him every game explain why not just give snooty comments about plus minus

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07-29-2012, 03:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I Hate Jay Feaster View Post
It's 160 points. Who gives a damn about his +/-?
Exactly

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07-29-2012, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuigiStone View Post
I find it funny when people ignore +/-. Let's say we ignore Powerplays. If you are a minus player that means that you have hurt your team more than helped your team (Remember, I sad ignore PP). Of course this doesn't apply to players in certain roles, such as defensive players playing against top lines. But it sure as heck is worth something when it comes to scoring line players. Of course it is not just about you but also your whole line but anyway, if you are a minus player, you have not been concentrating on the defensive side of the game enough (again...if you are on a scoring line).
Not true at all. You could be playing good defense while your other linemates give up goals, not your fault you got the minus, It's a terribly flawed statistic. You'd have to go look at each goal and determine whether or not he played into it.

You could score 50 goals and if your linemates suck, you could still be a -10.

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07-29-2012, 03:43 PM
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tarheelhockey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuigiStone View Post
If you are a minus player that means that you have hurt your team more than helped your team (Remember, I sad ignore PP).
Oh my.

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07-29-2012, 03:45 PM
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monster_bertuzzi
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Ahhh plus minus....the most useless stat in hockey.

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07-29-2012, 03:49 PM
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+/- is highly flawed but it's never completely useless. You can look at his teammates and notice that Mario had the 3rd worst +/- of all the offensive forwards on the team (Smolinski and Sandstrom being worse). Jagr, Nedved, and Francis were all at or above +25.

That said, that still doesn't tell you whether Mario was taking on the toughest ES minutes for his team or not which is something you would have to consider.

Finally, I think you look at his years before and after and realize that this wasn't a trend for him and maybe luck played a part in it. (On the other hand, you have a guy like Jack Johnson who finished dead last or close to dead last in +/- every season he played with the Kings, by a fairly big margin, and you would have a hard time arguing that it doesn't say something about JJ.)

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Old
07-29-2012, 03:51 PM
  #19
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example of plus/minus being silly:

Forward A decides to change in the defensive zone, poor hockey play, but he is tired/hurt or needs to get off the ice. Forward B steps on ice, opposing team scores, Forward B is -1.


Forward B scores two goals in the game, Forward A is on the ice for one.

Forward B final plus minus +1

Forward A final plus minus +1

see why plus minus might be a little misleading? this is just one example

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07-29-2012, 04:05 PM
  #20
IME
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Many of you are missing the point. It's not whether +/- is a useful stat, but rather why Lemieux's plus minus was so low for somebody putting up 160 points. A perfectly valid question.

Any theories?

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Old
07-29-2012, 04:08 PM
  #21
TheDevilMadeMe
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Mario's 1996-96 is overrated, but not really for the reasons stated in the OP. It's overrated because Mario was sitting out the second game of every back to back to be fresher for the games he did play.

As for his unimpressive plus minus, did you see who was on the Penguins blue line that season? Goaltending was also erratic

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Old
07-29-2012, 04:18 PM
  #22
shadow1
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He scored a lot on the power play. 31 times to be exact.

I don't know how that's a knock on him, though. Especially when his body was in shambles.

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Old
07-29-2012, 04:22 PM
  #23
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"Is Mario's 1995-96 Season a little overrated?"

I wonder if it's a troll.

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Old
07-29-2012, 04:23 PM
  #24
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Everyone has thier own opinion in this world, and no one's is more valid than another.

But scoring half your Goals and Points on the powrplay is a big gimme, and if you're playing with 150pts Jagr with a Plus 30 and Ron Francis 100pts and Plus 25 and Peter Nedved 100 pts and and Plus 40 .....

Huge discrepancy between Lemieux and the rest. More of a cherry picker? No touch rule like Gretzky after he got sick and came back? Greatest One Dimensional forward ever?


Last edited by Stars23*: 07-29-2012 at 04:29 PM.
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Old
07-29-2012, 04:27 PM
  #25
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Yes. Getting 160 points in 70 games should be frowned at.

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