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Is Mario's 1995-96 Season a little overrated?

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08-01-2012, 11:47 AM
  #126
Trafalgar Law
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Patrice Bergeron's 2011-2012 season>>>>>>>>Mario Lemieux's 1995-1996 season.

+/->>>>>>>>>actual production

Intangibawlez>>>>>>>>>talent

Jeff Schultz is the best defenseman of all time

Alex Ovechkin is the best defensive forward of all time

Gabriel Landeskog had the greatest rookie season of all time

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08-01-2012, 11:47 AM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Bexlyspeed View Post
"Mario Lemieux" and "Overrated" should not be in the same sentance.

could argue until the cows come home on opinions and +/-, but here is mine. he's the greatest talent EVER to grace the game.
Lot of Bobby Orr fan will use you as an argument that Mario Lemieux is overrated by some. When a player is rated by some over Gretzky, overrated can surely be use in the same sentence.

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08-01-2012, 11:52 AM
  #128
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Eric Staals +- was really bad, because he was really bad big portion of the season were he racked up huge minuses night after night.

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08-01-2012, 11:54 AM
  #129
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Originally Posted by LSnow View Post
Eric Staals +- was really bad, because he was really bad big portion of the season were he racked up huge minuses night after night.
Because he was worse than Tlusty, apparently.

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08-01-2012, 11:54 AM
  #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magnoctophas View Post
Patrice Bergeron's 2011-2012 season>>>>>>>>Mario Lemieux's 1995-1996 season.

+/->>>>>>>>>actual production

Intangibawlez>>>>>>>>>talent

Jeff Schultz is the best defenseman of all time

Alex Ovechkin is the best defensive forward of all time

Gabriel Landeskog had the greatest rookie season of all time
I dont think +- represents defence, i think it represents the units effectiveness, how they do it doesnt matter, that why Ovechkin had huge + because he had stacked unit that dominated everyone.

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08-01-2012, 12:09 PM
  #131
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I love how quickly the question of "Is Mario's 1995-96 Season a little overrated?" got turned into the statement of "Mario's 1995-96 Season is vastly overrated." Kudos to CzechYourMath for actually giving a legit response to a legit question

HFBoards: Where your reality is substituted for that of the illiterate and emotional masses

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08-01-2012, 12:21 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by boots electric View Post
I love how quickly the question of "Is Mario's 1995-96 Season a little overrated?" got turned into the statement of "Mario's 1995-96 Season is vastly overrated." Kudos to CzechYourMath for actually giving a legit response to a legit question

HFBoards: Where your reality is substituted for that of the illiterate and emotional masses
From what I saw, the outrage came primarily from the OP's assertion that it was a great season "on paper" but something seems "a little off" because of his +/- and postseason.

We're talking about a guy who came back from cancer to score 2PPG. And his +/- is being criticized.

Also: phrases like "the illiterate and emotional masses" belong in freshman philosophy essays.

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08-01-2012, 01:04 PM
  #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boots electric View Post
I love how quickly the question of "Is Mario's 1995-96 Season a little overrated?" got turned into the statement of "Mario's 1995-96 Season is vastly overrated." Kudos to CzechYourMath for actually giving a legit response to a legit question

HFBoards: Where your reality is substituted for that of the illiterate and emotional masses

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08-01-2012, 01:22 PM
  #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magnoctophas View Post
Patrice Bergeron's 2011-2012 season>>>>>>>>Mario Lemieux's 1995-1996 season.

+/->>>>>>>>>actual production

Intangibawlez>>>>>>>>>talent

Jeff Schultz is the best defenseman of all time

Alex Ovechkin is the best defensive forward of all time

Gabriel Landeskog had the greatest rookie season of all time
+/- do not represent defensive effectiveness, but 5on5 overall effectiveness.

Yes Ovechkin was part of one of the most dominating 5on5 ES unit of his time and was a dominant hockey player.

Bergeron usual 5 man unit was maybe more dominant in 11-12 than Mario usual 5 man unit on event strength in 95-96 ?

Thomas was better than Barasso, Chara better than all pens defenceman, etc... and Lemieux much better at the power play, etc... Context is important.

But is it possible that Mario season was not that much better (good season: Making your team winning game by making your team scoring more goals than the opponent when you play) that the Federov 93-94 season or Gilmour 92-93/93-94 run or Jagr 95-96 ? But some factor, (the return from cancer, the more than 2ppg) make it look much better to some, thus overrated ?

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08-01-2012, 02:42 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
From what I saw, the outrage came primarily from the OP's assertion that it was a great season "on paper" but something seems "a little off" because of his +/- and postseason.

We're talking about a guy who came back from cancer to score 2PPG. And his +/- is being criticized.
So in other words, people are fixated on cherry-picked elements of a post rather than looking at everything as a whole, context and all. Yeah, sounds about right.

As far as Mario being criticized...what? He points out that his +/- seems out of whack with his point totals (and when taken at face value, they absolutely are) and asks why that is--and does so in a genuine, non-sarcastic manner. He then goes on to refer to Mario as one of the greatest players of all time. Criticism?

As far as Mario's cancer goes, why that's even being brought up is beyond me. It's totally irrelevant to the conversation.

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Also: phrases like "the illiterate and emotional masses" belong in freshman philosophy essays.
SICK BURN

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08-01-2012, 03:07 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by boots electric View Post
So in other words, people are fixated on cherry-picked elements of a post rather than looking at everything as a whole, context and all. Yeah, sounds about right.
What do you mean cherry-picked? +/- and postseason were the only points brought to the table.

There was the part where he suggested that players "took it easy on Mario" to pad his stats, which I don't think needs any rebuttal.

Quote:
As far as Mario being criticized...what? He points out that his +/- seems out of whack with his point totals (and when taken at face value, they absolutely are) and asks why that is--and does so in a genuine, non-sarcastic manner. He then goes on to refer to Mario as one of the greatest players of all time. Criticism?
If the OP had been phrased as...

"Why are Mario's plus-minus numbers out of whack with his point totals?"

... then I doubt the response would have been half as harsh. Unfortunately he decided to go with...

"Mario's plus-minus is out of whack with his point totals. Is he overrated?"

... which is a MUCH more provocative direction to take the conversation. Hopefully you can see why.

Quote:
As far as Mario's cancer goes, why that's even being brought up is beyond me. It's totally irrelevant to the conversation.
I have to ask at this point: how old were you when these events took place?


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It's true, and something you should remember to incorporate into your writing. "The masses" is a term now used almost exclusively by undergraduate students.

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08-01-2012, 03:17 PM
  #137
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Yeah, plus/minus is not the most relevant stat to judge a player's performance. Lemieux's 160 points where very impressive.

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08-01-2012, 04:25 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
What do you mean cherry-picked? +/- and postseason were the only points brought to the table.
I planned on writing something longer, but this isn't a linguistics forum. You're taking individual elements of a post and taking them out of context, it's as simple as that. You and others became "outraged" over an implied jab that was never implied, and certainly wasn't meant as a jab.

This argument doesn't have anywhere else to go besides infractionville. Agree to disagree...with literally everything you're saying. Leaving it at that

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08-02-2012, 07:20 AM
  #139
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Mario's 1996-96 is overrated, but not really for the reasons stated in the OP. It's overrated because Mario was sitting out the second game of every back to back to be fresher for the games he did play.

As for his unimpressive plus minus, did you see who was on the Penguins blue line that season?
Zubov-Mironov
Tamer-Wilkinson/Maciver
and a combo of Joseph, Daignault, Leroux

As far as 66 sitting out a dozen games so he stays fresher, why not? I don't think it makes it any less impressive.

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08-02-2012, 10:17 AM
  #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iamjs View Post
Zubov-Mironov
Tamer-Wilkinson/Maciver
and a combo of Joseph, Daignault, Leroux

As far as 66 sitting out a dozen games so he stays fresher, why not? I don't think it makes it any less impressive.
The second of back to backs are the hardest games to win and put up points in. So his "per game" stats are a little inflated by sitting out the hardest games.

It obviously was still an awesome season. Mario just toyed with the opposition on the power play

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08-02-2012, 11:22 AM
  #141
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if +/- means nothing...should we not ingnore and scoff at Bobby Orr's +124 in 1 season? Just wondering.

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08-02-2012, 04:53 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by iamjs View Post
As far as 66 sitting out a dozen games so he stays fresher, why not? I don't think it makes it any less impressive.
Make is gpg and ppg a bit less impressive.

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08-02-2012, 07:05 PM
  #143
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I don't see how it's overrated. It isn't debated as one of the greatest seasons by a player ever. It certainly isn't Lemieux's most recognized season.

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08-02-2012, 08:49 PM
  #144
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lol. No. Maybe Mario thought so because he was lazy on defense also. Maybe I'm wrong but I don't ever once remember Gretzky working hard on defense. I'm not talking for a year or a game but just a shift.

Edit: but I don't want to derail this thread. If you have proof pm me or if you want show it here but inwontvreply so it will end.
Just working hard in general? Well, from the moment Walter froze an ice rink in the backyard Gretzky worked on his game tirelessly to become the player he was. He used to use a pencil and trace where the puck was on a piece of paper while he was watching a game on TV. Not to mention he is the smartest player to ever live. He knew where the puck was going to go, which is why he caught the other team off guard so often. How does a guy get odd man rushes in which he is LEADING them all the time if he isn't smart defensively?

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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
The second of back to backs are the hardest games to win and put up points in. So his "per game" stats are a little inflated by sitting out the hardest games.

It obviously was still an awesome season. Mario just toyed with the opposition on the power play

To be fair he still played 70 games out of 82. 2.3 points a game is just insane in a league where the other non-Jagr stars were topping out at 115-120. If we are being unfair to Lemieux we can assume he "only" gets a point a game in those back to back games. He still has 173 points in 82 games and a 2.1 PPG. By far the best in the NHL. But that's Mario for you, he could have a 60-70 game season and still be the best player in the game.

And all this talk about power plays got me thinking. Let's look at 1988-'89. Mario scores 85 goals. He racks up 31 on the powerplay and 13 shorthanded (still a record). That leaves 41 goals even strength. Is there anyone that wouldn't take a guy on their team with those numbers in every situation on the ice? Even in 1995-'96 Mario still had 8 SHG. From reading this thread you almost would think Mario just tied his skates up when the Pens had a powerplay and set up/scored a goal and did little else.

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08-03-2012, 12:08 AM
  #145
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I think it's cool when people that never saw the guy play, have these awesome opinions.


It fascinates me, indeed it does.

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08-03-2012, 12:09 AM
  #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadLuke View Post
Make is gpg and ppg a bit less impressive.
Really? Does it? Maybe you should get informed about the health issues he's been suffering basically his entire career. His back was messed up from birth, not to mention the other stuff that basically took a toll on the guy. The fact that before he came out of retirement, he had insane numbers and made others insanely better around him...speaks for itself.

People can argue about this or that not being impressive to them. Good for them.

Means nothing.

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08-03-2012, 12:25 AM
  #147
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
The second of back to backs are the hardest games to win and put up points in. So his "per game" stats are a little inflated by sitting out the hardest games.
While that most certainly makes sense, do the actual statistics back that claim up?

In 1995-96 Lemieux did play in 7 of the teams 16 back-to-back games. Of the games he missed, 9 were the second game of a back-to-back and 3 were other games. So while the second game of a back to back represented 75% of the games he took off, he still played in 44% of his teams back-to-back games.

In the first games of the back-to-backs his stats are;
7 9-5-14 -6 1.29gpg 2.00ppg
and in the second games of the back-to-backs;
7 5-7-12 -6 0.71gpg 1.71ppg

While there is a noticeable decline in gpg, his point production only declined by 14%. Of course due to the small sample size its difficult to determine how much value to place on those stats.

But for those who think his numbers would have precipitously dropped in the remainder of his back-to-backs, consider this; In 96-97 Lemieux's stat line in the 2nd of back to back games was far better than the 1st game;
1st games
13 7-8-15 -6 0.54gpg 1.15ppg
2nd games
13 9-14-23 +15 0.69gpg 1.77ppg
Yes, it was a different year so it may be hard to put any relevancy to that, but Mario was a different kind of player than the norm.

Anyhow, back to 95-96.
In the reminder of his games he was;
56 55-80-135 +22 2.41ppg

Based on his averages above, for the 12 games he missed his totals would come out to;
back to backs 9 6-9-15 (1.67ppg)
other 3 3-4-7 (2.33ppg)
which gives us,
82 78-105-183 0.95gpg 2.23ppg

Obviously, things don't work out so precisely in the real world. But I think its highly unlikely that his production would of dropped in half or worse, in the rest of those back-to-back games.

But for the naysayers, lets do just that. Say he was only able to average 1ppg in those 9 games (9 4-5-9).
That would still result in a stat line of;
82 76-101-177 0.93gpg 2.16ppg

So, in what world is that stat line over-rated??

Whats more, is that overrated in a year when the average goals per game league wide was 6.285? No one ever averaged over 2 ppg(let alone 2.3) in a season where the average gpg was under 6.9 and even then just barely.

6.285 gpg is 25% lower than the year Gretzky set the all time ppg record (2.77 in 83-84 with 7.889 gpg). Add 25% to Lemieux marks and tell me what you'd get...

My point in all this stat-overloading is this,

Lemieux's 95-96 is not overrated.
If anything its possibly underrated.
The value of his defensive ability and contributions that year is one thing and I take no issue with those who say he was somewhat flawed in that respect. But in terms of offensive, it was clearly one of the most incredible years ever witnessed. Considering the era, I'd say its easily in the top 10 all time.

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08-03-2012, 12:27 AM
  #148
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
It's true, and something you should remember to incorporate into your writing. "The masses" is a term now used almost exclusively by undergraduate students.
the pros say "multitude."

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