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Old
01-14-2013, 06:21 PM
  #451
thestonedkoala
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Originally Posted by Dr Jan Itor View Post
Predictable? From somebody who was openly rooting for us to lose games as early on as October last year and called the playoff run of 2002-03 "one of the worst things to happen to this franchise"? No...
While the 02-03 run was excellent, I find that it threw the entire 5 year plan out the window.

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01-14-2013, 06:33 PM
  #452
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Originally Posted by the8bandarmadillo View Post
While the 02-03 run was excellent, I find that it threw the entire 5 year plan out the window.
Not if that regime could've maintained some semblance of anything above or around "competent" drafting. They couldn't even sniff that level after 2003.

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01-14-2013, 07:08 PM
  #453
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The problem was that Riser was always stuck in the middle.

If you are going to make a playoff push, you trade Bouchard and Sheppard for O.Jokinen at the deadline and don't just pick up Chris Simon.

But if you are building a team, you don't just toss away picks for guys like Moore, Bergeron, Zidlicky, or to trade up to grab Gillies or Cuma (that's 2 2nds and 3 3rds gone in 3 seasons).

Toss in a bunch of blown 1st rounders and you got yourself a crap team.

Thank god for Fletcher.

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01-14-2013, 07:47 PM
  #454
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DR was terrible at drafting, gabby no brainer, koivu ok but no superstar then what? i hate dr! & i blame naegle for not canning him sooner (just a yes man).

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01-14-2013, 07:49 PM
  #455
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Originally Posted by nickschultzfan View Post
The problem was that Riser was always stuck in the middle.

If you are going to make a playoff push, you trade Bouchard and Sheppard for O.Jokinen at the deadline and don't just pick up Chris Simon.

But if you are building a team, you don't just toss away picks for guys like Moore, Bergeron, Zidlicky, or to trade up to grab Gillies or Cuma (that's 2 2nds and 3 3rds gone in 3 seasons).

Toss in a bunch of blown 1st rounders and you got yourself a crap team.

Thank god for Fletcher.
It's not just that he was stuck in the middle, it's that he was horrible at being in the middle. Couldn't do either.

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01-14-2013, 09:07 PM
  #456
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Originally Posted by Dr Jan Itor View Post
Not if that regime could've maintained some semblance of anything above or around "competent" drafting. They couldn't even sniff that level after 2003.
It wasn't just drafting but the build. Some of the guys we had, we could have traded during the 2003 trade deadline but now couldn't.

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01-14-2013, 09:12 PM
  #457
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Originally Posted by the8bandarmadillo View Post
It wasn't just drafting but the build. Some of the guys we had, we could have traded during the 2003 trade deadline but now couldn't.
Meh. WCF >>>> a couple more 2nd rounders, not that we would've picked anybody worthwhile anyways.

9 picks in 2003 + 12 picks in 2004 followed by 2 top 10 picks should've been enough to continue "the build".

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01-14-2013, 09:31 PM
  #458
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Originally Posted by Dr Jan Itor View Post
Meh. WCF >>>> a couple more 2nd rounders, not that we would've picked anybody worthwhile anyways.
Uh. If I remember correctly, it would have been a 1st round pick at least.

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9 picks in 2003 + 12 picks in 2004 followed by 2 top 10 picks should've been enough to continue "the build".
2004 is such a horrible draft year for everyone. Let us not talk about that year.

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01-14-2013, 09:40 PM
  #459
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Originally Posted by this providence View Post
List players traded less than a year after just signing a multi-year deal with an organization; annnnnd go.
There's one of those on our team . . . can you say one day after?

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Originally Posted by the8bandarmadillo View Post
And they weren't built for long term success. So far, my prediction with Riser has come true and I was one of the only ones to openly criticize Riser early on.
You're using hindsight to "prove" your old position. Go back to 2006-07. We had a franchise player to build around (Gaborik), some very good young talent (Bouchard, Koivu, Burns, and Harding, among others) with not-ancient veterans. Add on one of the very top-rated prospect pool, and a top-notch coaching staff, and what evidence did you have to be so negative? That's right, the GM's name was Risebrough. It didn't matter that the team was very competitive and seemingly going in the right direction. It doesn't matter that prior NHL draft picks had already proven themselves as legit. It didn't matter that Riser's real problem was that he didn't make enough moves, not that his moves were poor. No way. If you compare the situation then to the situation now, what do you get? We have a top-rated prospect pool like before. But where's the superstar? Where the group of young NHL talent? Where's the great coaching? Where's the current success? No, that doesn't matter. What matters is the GM's name of Fletcher. Now everything is fine. It doesn't matter that the team was historically bad last year offensively. It doesn't matter that the GM has made many poor moves. It doesn't matter that the playoffs haven't been reached even after trying to "win now". It just doesn't make sense, TSK.

To be technical, if Fletcher crashes, I'd be one of the only ones like you were back then. But I want to have reasons for it, not just say it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nickschultzfan View Post
Suter, Gilbert, and Spurgeon can bring the offense from the blueline. Toss in Brodin and Scandella when they are healthy, and the Wild will be fine in that respect.
Suter, yes. Could set Wild records for defensive production. The rest? Very limited offensively. Gilbert hasn't been a big threat since 2008-09. Spurgeon is simply ineffective offensively. Scandella doesn't look to have anything better than average offensive skills. Brodin would have to be the savior now and down the road. Would like to see more depth in that area.

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01-14-2013, 09:58 PM
  #460
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Originally Posted by State of Hockey View Post
It didn't matter that the team was very competitive and seemingly going in the right direction.
Wasn't he fired after they missed the playoffs, the year after winning the division?

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We have a top-rated prospect pool like before.
Yup.

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But where's the superstar?
Fletcher hasn't had the luxury of being handed a top-3 pick.

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Where the group of young NHL talent?
In the abyss of 2004-2008.

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Where's the great coaching?
Can't hire a hall-of-famer every time there is an opening. Not a fan of Yeo?

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Where's the current success?
Coming.

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It doesn't matter that the team was historically bad last year offensively.
Historically bad equates to 1 goal not scored every other game. Do you not think we've added those goals this year?

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It doesn't matter that the GM has made many poor moves.
One "poor" move. Many inconsequential moves. A few good moves. Two great moves.

Quote:
It doesn't matter that the playoffs haven't been reached even after trying to "win now".
It's not just "win now". There is a balance right now. Adding talent through the draft, while trying to become competitive is not an impossibility.

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01-14-2013, 10:58 PM
  #461
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When did DR ever sign anyone that was more than a middling UFA. DR missed on EVERYBODY...Marian Hossa, Paul Martin, even Jason Blake wouldn't sign here. Dr couldn't get anything more than Keith Carney and hometown Mark Parrish. Remember when we celebrated those moves so hard?? Keith Carney and Mark Parrish. Thats how bad DR was.

Fletcher has signed:

PARISE
SUTER

even Havlat...made a hell of a trade to get Heatley here and has rebuilt the league's worst prospect pool in the league into the best in 4 years??

Now this team has the tools to be good for the next 10 or so years with a solid core...young players on the way and a few veterans mixed in..the team is in perfect position salary wise to add as well.

WHEN DID DR EVER DO THAT??????

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01-14-2013, 11:02 PM
  #462
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State Of Hockey your arguments are brutal. Your just trying to start a fire with no wood to build it with. Fletcher has already demolished DR as a GM...Dr ran this team into the ground by not getting ANYTHING for Marian Gaborik and Brian Rolston at the deadline and instead letting them walk for nothing.

And by not letting James Sheppard scratch that last game so he was AHL eligible..that could of saved his Wild career.

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01-14-2013, 11:27 PM
  #463
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well if you are packaging brodziak with a prospect/pick to upgrade the defense significantly then sure, trade kyle. This is assuming that you have full confidence in whoever is taking Brodziak's place.

Otherwise i would say the Brodziak's value now >> a couple of picks or prospects who wont make a difference for at least a year or two.

The man went above expectations last year. If koivu or granlund get hurt we will need someone proven to jump into their spot.

Do you really think that neither granlund or koivu will get hurt this year?

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Old
01-14-2013, 11:48 PM
  #464
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Originally Posted by State of Hockey View Post
You're using hindsight to "prove" your old position.
No, I'm not. I have never waiver and was very unpopular with my unsupport of the organization.

Quote:
Go back to 2006-07. We had a franchise player to build around (Gaborik), some very good young talent (Bouchard, Koivu, Burns, and Harding, among others) with not-ancient veterans. Add on one of the very top-rated prospect pool, and a top-notch coaching staff, and what evidence did you have to be so negative?
Gaborik was injury prone and was very disgruntled with the organization. Koivu was injury prone. The top rated prospect pool dissolved very quickly after one year. None of the prospects did anything like Granlund, Brodin or even Zucker did. Furthermore, our prospect group never had the depth of talent it had now. You look at the old TSN reports and we may have one or two players listed. The talent level was very shallow and people were skeptical of how they would produce from the CHL.

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If you compare the situation then to the situation now, what do you get? We have a top-rated prospect pool like before.
No we don't. The situations don't compare. It just isn't on paper, SoH and that's the major difference. Different prospects, different players.

Quote:
But where's the superstar? Where the group of young NHL talent? Where's the great coaching? Where's the current success? No, that doesn't matter.
Parise, Granlund, Brodin, Koivu are superstars. The group of young talent? We have one of the best, if not the best pool in the NHL. Yeo is a solid coach but Mason is one of the best goaltending coaches. And success? How about 6 months of being number 1 or in the playoff race with the injuries. We were rebuilding and still are.

Quote:
What matters is the GM's name of Fletcher. Now everything is fine. It doesn't matter that the team was historically bad last year offensively. It doesn't matter that the GM has made many poor moves. It doesn't matter that the playoffs haven't been reached even after trying to "win now". It just doesn't make sense, TSK.
It makes a lot of sense if you stop looking at things on the paper. What's nifty is this thing called scouting reports and watching prospects. Thelen and Pouliot I knew would have busted and was angry when we took them. I hated our selections.

What matters is the moves, the difference in Fletcher's approach. The mannerisms, the direction.

Fletcher made two poor moves and learned from them. He also told us that he overshot. He corrected his mistakes, something Riser never did.

But again this is just more than paper.

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01-14-2013, 11:52 PM
  #465
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When did DR ever sign anyone that was more than a middling UFA.
Not a fan of Riesbrough and was glad when Leo replaced him with Fletcher. But just be fair here ... Risebrough had a couple of significant hurdles when it came to signing high end free agents (goal scorers in particular). First, players were reportedly reluctant about being in Lemaire's defensive system. Second, Risebrough had Naegele as an owner and he wasn't exactly known as a free spender. If Fletcher had Naegele as an owner what chance would he have had in landing Parise and Suter? I'd say there is close to a 0% chance that Naegele would have green-lighted giving any one player $100M let alone two.

The best move Fletcher made was hiring Brent Flahr and easing Tommy Thompson out the door. Our drafts starting getting better with Flahr in and Thompson out.

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01-15-2013, 10:34 AM
  #466
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Keep mulling over ideas for a #2 dman, and i keep coming back to the idea of going after Kevin Shattenkirk. #3 dman that proved he can produce in a defensive/mistake free system, both him, pietrangelo and prospect ian cole are RFA's next year. Anyone here think/would try to get a deal done with STL?

Setoguchi, RFA rights to clutterbuck + cond. 1st if re-singed for RFA rights to Shattenkirk at draft day. Too much? not enough?

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01-15-2013, 10:40 AM
  #467
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Keep mulling over ideas for a #2 dman, and i keep coming back to the idea of going after Kevin Shattenkirk. #3 dman that proved he can produce in a defensive/mistake free system, both him, pietrangelo and prospect ian cole are RFA's next year. Anyone here think/would try to get a deal done with STL?

Setoguchi, RFA rights to clutterbuck + cond. 1st if re-singed for RFA rights to Shattenkirk at draft day. Too much? not enough?
Every time St. Louis pops up in on the trade forum, they are very quick to say that they are fine on wingers. I'm not sure if they only mean in their top 6 or if it applies all the way down their lineup. I'd definitely give up the 1st for Shattenkirk, but I think they really like him as well. I'm guessing if you bring him up, Granlund's name pops up awfully quickly.

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01-15-2013, 10:45 AM
  #468
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Originally Posted by Teddy10Beers View Post
Not a fan of Riesbrough and was glad when Leo replaced him with Fletcher. But just be fair here ... Risebrough had a couple of significant hurdles when it came to signing high end free agents (goal scorers in particular). First, players were reportedly reluctant about being in Lemaire's defensive system. Second, Risebrough had Naegele as an owner and he wasn't exactly known as a free spender. If Fletcher had Naegele as an owner what chance would he have had in landing Parise and Suter? I'd say there is close to a 0% chance that Naegele would have green-lighted giving any one player $100M let alone two.

The best move Fletcher made was hiring Brent Flahr and easing Tommy Thompson out the door. Our drafts starting getting better with Flahr in and Thompson out.
very good points. Risebrough would have looked more effective had he the bankroll his whole tenure to buy some stars instead of having to trade all our picks for middling players. Who knows.

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01-15-2013, 10:50 AM
  #469
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thats what i figured, but can the blues honestly spend that much money on these 2? pietrangelo will get his career contract for 8 years at big money prob 6.5-7mill a year, and shattenkirk will be asking for close to that. I wonder if shattenkirk is ok with being in pietrangelo's shadow if asked to resign long term.

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01-15-2013, 10:55 AM
  #470
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Originally Posted by Dr Jan Itor View Post
Every time St. Louis pops up in on the trade forum, they are very quick to say that they are fine on wingers. I'm not sure if they only mean in their top 6 or if it applies all the way down their lineup. I'd definitely give up the 1st for Shattenkirk, but I think they really like him as well. I'm guessing if you bring him up, Granlund's name pops up awfully quickly.
Having Shattenkirk on our team would rock..

Seto + 2nd?

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01-15-2013, 11:06 AM
  #471
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its really hard to incorporate a deal based around setoguchi, looking at their fowards for next year they have a core of:

Perron Backes Oshie
Steen ? Tarasenko
Schwartz ? ?
? Sabotka Reaves

Foward RFA's: Berglund, D'agostini, Stewart

Which they will more than likely resign filling out their roster.

so i change my first proposal too... Gilbert, Rights to Clutterbuck, Cond. 1st if resigned for RFA rights to Shattenkirk.

Blues replace shattenkirk with gilbert
+ clutterbuck who would play their system very well
+ the 1st. (likely 15-25 range)

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01-15-2013, 11:07 AM
  #472
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Originally Posted by grN1g View Post
thats what i figured, but can the blues honestly spend that much money on these 2? pietrangelo will get his career contract for 8 years at big money prob 6.5-7mill a year, and shattenkirk will be asking for close to that. I wonder if shattenkirk is ok with being in pietrangelo's shadow if asked to resign long term.
He comes here, and he's in Suter's shadow. Could we afford him at $5m-$6m per year with our higher end contracts?

Edit: Your redux is interesting, as it sheds Gilbert's $4m, but if I'm St. Louis, I could probably get a better deal somewhere else.

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01-15-2013, 11:11 AM
  #473
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Riser should have been fired many years earlier. Should have been canned following the 03-04 disaster. Played it far too safe and took no chances. Not good in scouting, trading, or free agency.

We're on Year Four of the rebuild under Fletcher. You can argue the first couple years will be rough, third year should show improvement, fourth year should make the playoffs, fifth year should be a real contender.

I'd say we're one high end defenseman away from being a contender, so we're right on track. And if I were Fletcher, I'd wait until the summer to see what happens. It's entirely possible a quality defenseman gets cut loose or traded on the cheap to get under the salary cap.

Not to mention we haven't seen Brodin yet. He projects to be a high end defenseman, and if that happens sooner than later...look out.

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01-15-2013, 11:14 AM
  #474
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would be nice to have three top pairing D...

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01-15-2013, 11:16 AM
  #475
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Originally Posted by Dr Jan Itor View Post
He comes here, and he's in Suter's shadow. Could we afford him at $5m-$6m per year with our higher end contracts?

Edit: Your redux is interesting, as it sheds Gilbert's $4m, but if I'm St. Louis, I could probably get a better deal somewhere else.
what i was trying to say was does shattenkirk believe he can be a #1 dman and want to go look for Pietrangelo money? rather than being told your not Piet status so you wont get piet $$ here. Not to say thats how it will go down just trying to get my point across.

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