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Cap Circumvention???

View Poll Results: Does Wang Circumvent the Cap Floor?
YES 49 79.03%
NO 9 14.52%
MAYBE 4 6.45%
Voters: 62. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
07-30-2012, 09:28 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by JKP View Post
Yes. Granted, it's a long shot odds wise, but it's certainly not 'unattainable' at the beginning of the year.
Come on, now. Be realistic. They took the least likely attainable bonus possible, and deliberately used it to elevate the cap hit (effectively making the cap hit double the paid salary). Is it literally "unattainable"? No, but me banging Scarlett Johansson this Friday night isn't literally "unattainable" either, but is sure as hell isn't particularly likely.

Bottom line, the Islanders spent less than any other team in the league. They also had, by far, the most bonuses built into their cap structure.

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07-30-2012, 09:39 PM
  #27
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I can already see where this thread is going.... so Ill just say NO and move on.


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07-30-2012, 09:41 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by JKP View Post
Yes. Granted, it's a long shot odds wise, but it's certainly not 'unattainable' at the beginning of the year.
"and theoretical physics can prove that an elephant can hang from a cliff with its tail tied to a daisy but we use our heads and common sense to figure out otherwise..."

the islanders winning the cup IS as unattainable as brad boyes scoring 100 goals this year, although, the odds in vegas could be SLIGHTLY different.

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07-30-2012, 09:44 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richie Daggers Crime View Post
Come on, now. Be realistic. They took the least likely attainable bonus possible, and deliberately used it to elevate the cap hit (effectively making the cap hit double the paid salary). Is it literally "unattainable"? No, but me banging Scarlett Johansson this Friday night isn't literally "unattainable" either, but is sure as hell isn't particularly likely.

Bottom line, the Islanders spent less than any other team in the league. They also had, by far, the most bonuses built into their cap structure.
The reason the games are played is because they produce unexpected outcomes. EDM and CAL both made the finals as 8 seeds. LA won as an 8 seed. The odds are long, but surely if they make the playoffs that a $1M bonus (or whatever it might be) would actually incent the player to play harder in an attempt to win the cup and get paid.

Bonuses are to incentivize the effort to achieve the result. If you had a $1M incentive to hook up with SJ you'd put more effort into figuring out how to do it this Friday...

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07-30-2012, 09:46 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by HyeDray View Post
He may "circumvent a little by not using the LTIR rule, but using a buyout to circumvent the cap?
No.
Sorry.
That is not smart. If all he wanted to do was get to the cap floor alone and did not care at all about the team, he would never have agreed to buyout Yashin. Why pay a guy to not play?
The bonuses — its marginal.

I just dont see it.

I don't like that we miss on free agents and don't like that we are not spending, but that has more to do with franchise uncertainty then anything else.
the same reason why people try to get out of an 8 year financing purchase of a car. they still have $20,000 to pay on a vehicle that has already depreciated to under $10,000. why would you want to pay $20,000 more when you know you aren't going to get bang for your buck? it's just cutting your losses. that's what wang did with yashin.

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07-30-2012, 09:57 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by islandermaniac View Post
"and theoretical physics can prove that an elephant can hang from a cliff with its tail tied to a daisy but we use our heads and common sense to figure out otherwise..."

the islanders winning the cup IS as unattainable as brad boyes scoring 100 goals this year, although, the odds in vegas could be SLIGHTLY different.
Lots of teams give the SC bonus. 29 out of 30 won't be paying it out. I don't understand why it's such a crime for the Isles to try to incent their players with it but it's OK for everyone else?

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07-30-2012, 10:39 PM
  #32
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This past season, Staios, Nino, Pandolfo had bonuses that chipped away at the cap to avoid paying out salary. The whale that was Rolston was definitely in the same category, high cap hit, lower salary. Provided the arbitrator rules for Anaheim, Vis will be in the same category if there is a 2012-13 season. If Nino and Strome are added to the team for the cap hit only and not based on productivity, more cap dodging is coming.

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07-30-2012, 10:50 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by JKP View Post
Bonuses are to incentivize the effort to achieve the result.
If you believe that the the Islanders gave those bonuses in order to incentivize those players to win the Stanley Cup, then I don't know what to say. I'll leave it at that. God love ya, friend.

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07-31-2012, 01:50 AM
  #34
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This shouldn't even be open to question. We have definitely circumvented the cap. The problem is that nobody cared in the past.

We have definitely been below the "floor" during the season. That is circumventing the Lower Limit. The problem is that there is absolutely nothing in the current (soon to be previous) CBA that mentions how to cure or penalize this problem. There aren't numerous examples for the Lower Limit like there are for problems concerning the Upper Limit. It does suggest teams not being allowed to be below the Lower Limit during the season; it doesn't consider anything else about it. One should be amazed at the lack of language in this CBA regarding the Lower Limit.

I'll answer this thread with this: It doesn't matter anymore going forward. The NHLPA obviously realizes at this point that they left this issue up in the air for the last CBA. (I believe the NHL knew exactly what they were doing by not clarifying issues that may arise from the Lower Limit.) There will be clear language on penalties that will occur for teams that fall below the Lower Limit in the upcoming CBA. There will also be examples of ways to cure the issue of teams falling below the Lower Limit during the season in the next CBA. I just can't see the NHLPA not paying more attention this time around.

Please understand, when the bonuses became unreachable during seasons in the past that they immediately no longer counted towards the Lower or Upper Limit. The NHLPA never raised this as an issue when teams fell below the Lower Limit during previous seasons. The NHL never penalized a team. If there was threatening going on behind the scenes, we never heard of it. The only thing we do know is that even the Islanders made sure that their opening roster had a chance to hit the Lower Limit. We also know that there were numerous occasions during the past couple of seasons where this team was legitimately (and often significantly) below the Lower Limit during the season.

,
Mitch

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Old
07-31-2012, 07:36 AM
  #35
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Don't you guys EVER tire of discussing this and all the other ills of Snow/Wang???

Yes these last couple of seasons they have been circumventing the cap and blatantly so, but forthe upcoming season the Isles won't be needing that. They'll reach the floor comfortably without unattainable bonuses and such.

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Old
07-31-2012, 08:18 AM
  #36
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Oh Jeez!!!

So, Wang circumvents the cap with buyouts and offering contracts with unattainable bonuses to reach the cap floor.

And the slew of NHL teams that offer 10-12 year contracts that are front loaded and come with a signing bonus (which doesn't impact the cap at all) are doing what exactly?

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07-31-2012, 08:45 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by HyeDray View Post
I can already see where this thread is going.... so Ill just say NO and move on.

wow, just wow, then again, I shouldn't be surprised.





btw, you also said this before you edite your post:
Quote:
I don't like that we miss on free agents and don't like that we are not spending, but that has more to do with franchise uncertainty then anything else.
NO. The building is being used as an excuse for the hardline stance this dictator is using to mask the ineptitude of actually BUILDING something ON the ice.

That is why many die hard LONG TIME ISLANDERS FANS are fed up with his antics and BS.
The fact that we have poor media covering the team and handpicked naive bloggers who know as
much about hockey as they are told by team makes our position worse as neophyte fans eat that up.

Never ending rebuild continues when in fact it's a cap floor maintenance project till 2015.

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07-31-2012, 11:42 AM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CDirt View Post
Oh Jeez!!!

So, Wang circumvents the cap with buyouts and offering contracts with unattainable bonuses to reach the cap floor.

And the slew of NHL teams that offer 10-12 year contracts that are front loaded and come with a signing bonus (which doesn't impact the cap at all) are doing what exactly?
They are circumventing the cap ceiling. We are circumventing the cap floor. If you can't see the difference then... sorry.

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Old
07-31-2012, 11:55 AM
  #39
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people need to stop arguing whether wang/the isles are doing things legally....it is obvious their actions were legal under the old CBA (hopefully that gets changed), thus why it is circumvention and not blatantly illegal

the real question here is whether the isles are putting forth more effort in saving money or putting a competitive team on the ice....(not really much of a question)

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07-31-2012, 12:27 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevedepot View Post
wow, just wow, then again, I shouldn't be surprised.





btw, you also said this before you edite your post:


NO. The building is being used as an excuse for the hardline stance this dictator is using to mask the ineptitude of actually BUILDING something ON the ice.

That is why many die hard LONG TIME ISLANDERS FANS are fed up with his antics and BS.
The fact that we have poor media covering the team and handpicked naive bloggers who know as
much about hockey as they are told by team makes our position worse as neophyte fans eat that up.

Never ending rebuild continues when in fact it's a cap floor maintenance project till 2015.
I dont know what "I should be surprised" means.

You can believe the rebuild is never ending if you want, but I have it entering season 5. It began in 2008. Anything else is emotional garbage in my opinion. Sorry but the argument that we have been rebuilding forever doesn't wash. We rebuilt perpetually for the 7+ seasons from 1994-95 until Wang purchased the team because he was the only owner willing to spend money.

I think that the rebuild is going along more or less on pace. There was zero in 2007-08, now we have a top 5 system. The product on the ice is improving, albeit painfully slowly. I would love to see a deal made, but NOT for the sake of making a deal, and not when there is no way of being able to retain the player coming back if he is on a short term deal. I am further not willing to part with a top prospect for a 30+ player. We are no where near the "win now" location to gamble like that.

So what are you looking for? You want him trading Strome, Nino and a pick for a guy like Iginla? Want to deal away 2 young defense prospects that could be top 4 guys for a 36 year old type?

Look — you and other Isles fans may be willing to do that. I am not. Not in the least. We went down that path from 1995 to 2008. What did it get us? ZERO.

Pass.

Can a deal be made? Yes. But it has to be under the right circumstances with the right contract term coming back, and the willingness of the return player to be part of the long term solution or the deal makes no sense.

You think the arena does not impact the decision making process. OK. You have that right. But I would like to see your position when it is your money leaving your pocket at the rate of $20 mil a year.

You want to call me an apologist? Go ahead. It does not mean I am not frustrated by the situation. I am not some new fan. Been a fan since the 70s. I get as angered as the next guy/gal. The difference is that I stopped thinking that this is an ordinary situation. It is not. A new owner, in this arena situation is not going to change that.

You want Wang to sell. OK. That's fine. Jim Ballsillie would love to buy the team and move them to Hamilton. We know there would be an interested buyer in Quebec and in Seattle, not to mention Kansas City.

Be very careful what you wish for. Because there will not be a local savior coming in to buy the Isles and keep them on Long Island. That is nothing but wishful thinking.

As for cap circumvention — there might be from bonus... might... but from buyouts. Im sorry — I don't see that as good business unless the buyout facilitates an opportunity for you to add a different player in the buyout candidates place. In the case of Yashin, that was, I believe, the goal in trying to hand the team over to Smyth. It did not work. And that was a blessing frankly. They always reach the floor and they will again. The fact they don't want to spend more then they have too....? See Kate Murray, Ed Mangano, Jay Jacobs and the rest of the Nassau Clowns.

P.S.
I don't give a crap if they circumvent it — because 29 other teams do the same damn thing. You don't like that we have not been winning. I get it. But this is what a rebuild takes. You feel they have been rebuilding for 40 years. I believe its been 5. We can agree to disagree. Frankly, I don't really care all that much. I really don't, because they have always made it to the floor.

I guess I would care more if the arena situation was settled, or if we had a young core in place that was winning and a free agent or two would have put us over the top to be an elite NHL team. For this team to be viable, the young core needs to be the ones to get us to the "respectable level" Now —*if you feel they can't do that... great. Tell me... who goes, who stays... Many says JT is our only NHL player. So I guess everyone who says that is ready to trade Hamonic, KO, Poulin, Nillsson, Neilsen, Martin for a buch of 35+ guys???


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Old
07-31-2012, 12:27 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enigmatic View Post
people need to stop arguing whether wang/the isles are doing things legally....it is obvious their actions were legal under the old CBA (hopefully that gets changed), thus why it is circumvention and not blatantly illegal

the real question here is whether the isles are putting forth more effort in saving money or putting a competitive team on the ice....(not really much of a question)

No one is saying he's doing it illegally.
Some teams circumvent the cap ceiling by burying guys in the AHL.
"Circumventing" as in a work around. Not illegal and it's painfully obvious
this owner's priority is saving as much as possible. Between the cutbacks,
front office downsizing and cap friendly nonsense we are subjected to an AHL team that we have to HOPE over performs to stand a chance.

Meanwhile, this owner is making money after that SMG deal was renegotiated giving him concessions and parking monies. But he needs to cry poverty tohelp his quest for not putting up any money for a new arena unless he can sell off real estate to investors (as he wanted to with the LHP).

Sorry for the ramble. Totally gree with that last line btw and entire post as well.

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07-31-2012, 12:42 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by HyeDray View Post
I dont know what "I should be surprised" means.

You can believe the rebuild is never ending if you want, but I have it entering season 5. It began in 2008. Anything else is emotional garbage in my opinion. Sorry but the argument that we have been rebuilding forever doesn't wash. We rebuilt perpetually for the 7+ seasons from 1994-95 until Wang purchased the team because he was the only owner willing to spend money.

I think that the rebuild is going along more or less on pace. There was zero in 2007-08, now we have a top 5 system. The product on the ice is improving, albeit painfully slowly. I would love to see a deal made, but NOT for the sake of making a deal, and not when there is no way of being able to retain the player coming back if he is on a short term deal. I am further not willing to part with a top prospect for a 30+ player. We are no where near the "win now" location to gamble like that.

So what are you looking for? You want him trading Strome, Nino and a pick for a guy like Iginla? Want to deal away 2 young defense prospects that could be top 4 guys for a 36 year old type?

Look you and other Isles fans may be willing to do that. I am not. Not in the least. We went down that path from 1995 to 2008. What did it get us? ZERO.

Pass.

Can a deal be made? Yes. But it has to be under the right circumstances with the right contract term coming back, and the willingness of the return player to be part of the long term solution or the deal makes no sense.

You think the arena does not impact the decision making process. OK. You have that right. But I would like to see your position when it is your money leaving your pocket at the rate of $20 mil a year
I'm pretty sure this $20 million a year loss has been refuted many times. I mean if Wang was really losing $20 million a year, that means he'd be over $200 million in the hole right now. There is no way that has happened. I am not disputing he may be losing some money, but I have a hard time believing it is anywhere close to $20 million a year.

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07-31-2012, 12:55 PM
  #43
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I think that the rebuild is going along more or less on pace.



stop reading right there!!!

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07-31-2012, 01:01 PM
  #44
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I'm pretty sure this $20 million a year loss has been refuted many times. I mean if Wang was really losing $20 million a year, that means he'd be over $200 million in the hole right now. There is no way that has happened. I am not disputing he may be losing some money, but I have a hard time believing it is anywhere close to $20 million a year.
$20 mil, $10 mil what is the difference? He is losing 10s of millions of dollars. If the numbers are conservatively $10 mil... and he paid $195 for the team... Then he has lost nearly $300 mil when you factor the purchase of the team.

This is why I am willing to cut the guy a small break and I am not a fan of CBW not at all. If you have read my blog posts you would know that. But the guy has kept the franchise here.

he is the "devil we know" and right now, with the uncertainty we have, he is the devil I will keep. Any delusions that Pat LaFontaine is going to swoop in and buy the team and keep them in Nassau... come on. Not realistic.

The only "local" guy who I could see making a run at buying the team would be Ratner, but even there the numbers would need to work.

It is all about the money for CBW now. He will forge a deal be it with Brooklyn, a hail mary play in Nassau, or another city to stop the losses and start making some money. I really think it is boiling down to being that simple and all the back and forth of Isles fans hating on each other because of different opinions about frankly silly things like this... serves no purpose at all. And I am JUST AS GUILTY for responding to this ridiculous thread!

You know look at how much energy all of us put on this kind of thread and debate. Imagine if we got together and instead of bashing each other (not you, I mean in general) we got together at NVMC in protest of all the empty suits involved in this entire mess that is causing all of our problems... That would be Murray, Jacobs, Mangano, Suozzi, and CHARLES WANG. (Again, if you have read what I have written, he is a big reason why the team is here, but a huge reason why this continues to drag out, and he was instrumental in the failure of his own LHP)

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07-31-2012, 01:02 PM
  #45
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stop reading right there!!!
What ever dude. I could say the same thing about you....

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07-31-2012, 01:05 PM
  #46
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Let's move along....

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07-31-2012, 01:12 PM
  #47
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Charles Wang's cap circumvention is a ploy for his own self serving interest and purveying the image of victimization.

If any fan wants to believe the absolute rubbish that Wang is a victim in all this and he's losing money etc, well
you are just as guilty as the hand picked blog boxers who know as much about hockey as the Kardashians know about humility.

Year 7 of Garf, year 6 of rebuild. Year 5?
Does it even matter? Cap circumvention is the only thing these imbeciles are good at. We the fans are victims, not Wang.

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07-31-2012, 03:55 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enigmatic View Post
people need to stop arguing whether wang/the isles are doing things legally....it is obvious their actions were legal under the old CBA (hopefully that gets changed), thus why it is circumvention and not blatantly illegal

the real question here is whether the isles are putting forth more effort in saving money or putting a competitive team on the ice....(not really much of a question)
During the season when we were below the Lower Limit, it was blatantly illegal (against the rules set forth in the CBA.) The NHL and NHLPA just never made a stink about it. The NHL wouldn't want to penalize its teams for not spending when teams feel it's necessary. The NHLPA most likely realized that there wasn't clear language on how teams should be penalized for failing to meet the Lower Limit during a season. I think the NHLPA put it in their back pocket and waited for the current negotiations to take it out.

I'm going to mention this every so often with the hope that it becomes the topic of discussion.

,
Mitch

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07-31-2012, 04:14 PM
  #49
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I don't see what other teams are doing or whether or not it's a "rebuild" has anything to do with the topic at hand.

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07-31-2012, 04:20 PM
  #50
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Buyouts? No owner would go that route to circumvent the cap. It makes zero sense as you are still paying. Giving out unobtainable bonuses, knowing they cant be met but will take up cap space sounds alot more likely a sinister route to take. I just dont get how a buyout fits into this discussion.

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