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Roberto Luongo XXVI - Love me Lu (Admin Warning: Post 178)

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08-01-2012, 01:22 AM
  #201
SunshineRays
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
Well the untouchables for NY (Stepan, Kreider, McDonagh) were echoed by management that they wouldn't be moved, yet their names were thrown around as pieces in a Nash trade. This is the same happening with Florida's untouchables (Bjugstad, Huberdeau), despite Tallon claiming that they are unlikely to be moved. NTC gives Florida a favorable advantage in negotiations.
Tallon never said specifically that Bjugstad and Huberdeau are untouchable. Even if he did, it's merely part of a negotiation strategy. GM's have a history of talking publicly then going back on their word. Some GMs like to use the media and make their positional proclamations, others prefer to keep things quiet.

NTC is definitely an obstacle for GMs. But it doesn't necessarily give Florida or any other team an advantage. Gillis has said all along that there's a good chance both goalies are in net next season - Schneiders agent echoed the same thing. If Luongos NTC is an issue, and Luongo really wants out - then he'll eventually have to expand his list of teams (if there even is a list).

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08-01-2012, 01:29 AM
  #202
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Originally Posted by SunshineRays View Post
Love how people are saying 'x' player is untouchable. Uh? According to who? NYR just gave up one of their top prospects for Nash, PLUS 2 quality roster players and a 1st round pick.

Other people saying "Florida doesn't need Luongo". Um, then why did their GM enter into negotiations as per Dreger at the beginning of this month. You don't make multiple phone calls if you don't have some interest.

Also, really curious where this USA writer got this information. Nobody has info on asking price,yet suddenly he knows a name? This guys probably looking for viewership. If Van media doesn't have a clue, then I can't imagine a USA does.
Why did Tallon enter negotiations? Easy, Loungo came out in June and said he would love to play in Florida again and Tallon likely thinks he can get a great deal because Gillis and the Canuck organization have a lot of respect for Loungo and will probably go out of their way to make sure he's happy. When Florida came into the off season, they were coming in looking for more scoring. A new goalie is at the bottom of their list. Plus all of Florida's prospects have much more value to their organization than any of the players New York gave up.

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08-01-2012, 01:29 AM
  #203
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It goes without being said that Huberdeau is untouchable.

It goes without saying for Bjugstad as well, although it has in fact been said that Tallon will not let Bjugstad go.

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08-01-2012, 01:31 AM
  #204
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Originally Posted by Dr Beinfest View Post
It goes without being said that Huberdeau is untouchable.

It goes without saying for Bjugstad as well, although it has in fact been said that Tallon will not let Bjugstad go.
Honestly though, in a fringe market like Florida, can they wait for prospects to pan out or would taking a proven commodity be more beneficial?

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08-01-2012, 01:31 AM
  #205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SunshineRays View Post
Tallon never said specifically that Bjugstad and Huberdeau are untouchable. Even if he did, it's merely part of a negotiation strategy. GM's have a history of talking publicly then going back on their word. Some GMs like to use the media and make their positional proclamations, others prefer to keep things quiet.

NTC is definitely an obstacle for GMs. But it doesn't necessarily give Florida or any other team an advantage. Gillis has said all along that there's a good chance both goalies are in net next season - Schneiders agent echoed the same thing. If Luongos NTC is an issue, and Luongo really wants out - then he'll eventually have to expand his list of teams (if there even is a list).
I think you're very wrong, and history will back me up on that one. Fans might be ok with having $5.3M in cap space warming the bench but management won't. Especially since he's expected to be paid $6.75M for the next 6 years in real salary.

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08-01-2012, 01:41 AM
  #206
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Originally Posted by Imagine17 View Post
Red Wings traded to get Shanahan
LA traded to get Richards, Carter
St. Louis traded to get Halak

In all those trades good young players (Eller, Primeau, Schenn, Simmonds, JJ) went the other wa
y for an established player (Halak... not so much).
Right. The Panthers acquired Campbell, Versteeg, and Fleischmann.

Red Wings traded for Shanahan, eh? They also farmed Franzen, Filppula, Hudlr, Kronwall, Zetterberg, Holmstrom, Dandenault, Lapointe, Kozlov, Federov, and Lidstrom. Good point though! Shanahan! He was all the Red Wings ever were, anyways.

Richards and Carter! Let's just forget about Doughty, Quick, Kopitar, and Brown. They're not the core of the cup winning team, no sir.

Oh god, the list goes on and on for winning teams. You can't honestly make this argument. The Panthers have their acquired players. They need to farm their team. You don't go about building a team off of acquisitions alone. Acquisitions are almost always compliments to cores, especially when you're in the Panthers market and you don't have big money and you don't draw big FAs.

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08-01-2012, 01:44 AM
  #207
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Originally Posted by Dr Beinfest View Post
It goes without being said that Huberdeau is untouchable.

It goes without saying for Bjugstad as well, although it has in fact been said that Tallon will not let Bjugstad go.
See, I don't think it does go without saying. I think that Tallon is a fantastic GM, who has amassed some really great prospects in Florida, and Luongo could bring alot of intangibles (i know, I hate that word too), even at it's most basic being extra revenue from more fans in the seats. Is it worth Bjugstad? Well that's up to Tallon and the owners, but I think its a little much to say he's untouchable.

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08-01-2012, 01:45 AM
  #208
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Originally Posted by MajorCanuck View Post
Honestly though, in a fringe market like Florida, can they wait for prospects to pan out or would taking a proven commodity be more beneficial?
We've waited 10 years. We survived.

The only thing that will take this franchise down is another 10 years of mediocrity. A good way to avoid that? Patience.

Dale Tallon is a patient man. Building a team is proven to work when done properly. Trying for quick fixes... bad idea.

There's no fancy player they can bring in that will sell tickets in South Florida. I hope people realize that from what the Marlins have done. The only thing that sells tickets here are teams that are winners. That's why the Heat sell. That's why nobody else does.

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08-01-2012, 01:46 AM
  #209
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Originally Posted by Shawnathon View Post
Why did Tallon enter negotiations? Easy, Loungo came out in June and said he would love to play in Florida again and Tallon likely thinks he can get a great deal because Gillis and the Canuck organization have a lot of respect for Loungo and will probably go out of their way to make sure he's happy. When Florida came into the off season, they were coming in looking for more scoring. A new goalie is at the bottom of their list. Plus all of Florida's prospects have much more value to their organization than any of the players New York gave up.

Luongo didn't publicly state his desire to play in Florida until July 5th - (1st interview of the summer). According to Dreger/McKenzie, Gillis and Tallon have been talking since playoffs ended in April (about Luongo). End of June, Dreger proclaimed "there's a deal to be made there, it will just take time". By that timeline, Tallon was looking at Luongo long before he ever proclaimed he'd like to play there. Maybe things have changed and Florida doesn't like the asking price, who knows. At one point there was obviously interest for Tallon to upgrade his goaltending.

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08-01-2012, 01:47 AM
  #210
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Originally Posted by icebank_miceelf View Post
See, I don't think it does go without saying. I think that Tallon is a fantastic GM, who has amassed some really great prospects in Florida, and Luongo could bring alot of intangibles (i know, I hate that word too), even at it's most basic being extra revenue from more fans in the seats. Is it worth Bjugstad? Well that's up to Tallon and the owners, but I think its a little much to say he's untouchable.
It's simply not worth Bjugstad though. Luongo is obviously worth it value for value, but value as respective to Florida... no. When you factor in cap hits, age, position, leverage, etc... it's not worth it.

Nobody is 'untouchable' given the right moves. We all know that. But for all intents and purposes, someone like Bjugstad isn't moving unless the deal is well in favor of Florida. As for trading partners, Vancouver and Florida just don't make great partners. So in the end, despite the interest from Florida, if Vancouver's going to want to get rid of Luongo, Florida has the ultimate say unless Gillis finds somewhere else to send him.

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08-01-2012, 01:49 AM
  #211
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Originally Posted by MajorCanuck View Post
Honestly though, in a fringe market like Florida, can they wait for prospects to pan out or would taking a proven commodity be more beneficial?
Hmm, have you already forgotten they've already tried building their team around Loungo and that got them no where. Can't see how Loungo would be better than Vokoun was while in Florida. And he never got them to the playoffs. That salary will kill the Panthers chance of being a playoff team next season and that is why keeping the prospects in a trade for him is vital.

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08-01-2012, 01:51 AM
  #212
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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
I think you're very wrong, and history will back me up on that one. Fans might be ok with having $5.3M in cap space warming the bench but management won't. Especially since he's expected to be paid $6.75M for the next 6 years in real salary.
Ok, where's the history?

It's not about what 'fans' would like, I've already pointed that out. It's what the guy in charge of the organization wants. He's already stated multiple times that there's a good chance we see both in net next yr. Schneiders agent affirmed the same thing. Maybe it's a negotiation ploy as well? Who knows - I guess we'll see.

The $6.75M of salary is irrelevant, they aren't the Phx Coyotes. Canucks owners have $$. Its about the cap hit, Gillis and Gilman are cap nazis.

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08-01-2012, 01:56 AM
  #213
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Originally Posted by Shawnathon View Post
Hmm, have you already forgotten they've already tried building their team around Loungo and that got them no where. Can't see how Loungo would be better than Vokoun was while in Florida. And he never got them to the playoffs. That salary will kill the Panthers chance of being a playoff team next season and that is why keeping the prospects in a trade for him is vital.
No matter how good a player is you can't expect results if you put **** in front of him. Every good player thrives off other good players. Every franchise player has great players around him that brings them success. If Luongo faltered in Florida it's cause of your incompetent GM that couldn't build a competitor.

You can't compare Vokoun to Luongo.

How would the salary kill the Panthers chances of making the playoffs. Please explain.

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08-01-2012, 01:58 AM
  #214
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Originally Posted by Dr Beinfest View Post
It's simply not worth Bjugstad though. Luongo is obviously worth it value for value, but value as respective to Florida... no. When you factor in cap hits, age, position, leverage, etc... it's not worth it.

Nobody is 'untouchable' given the right moves. We all know that. But for all intents and purposes, someone like Bjugstad isn't moving unless the deal is well in favor of Florida. As for trading partners, Vancouver and Florida just don't make great partners. So in the end, despite the interest from Florida, if Vancouver's going to want to get rid of Luongo, Florida has the ultimate say unless Gillis finds somewhere else to send him.
I agree with alot of your post. We'll have to see how it plays out I suppose. How much would you pay to be a fly on the wall at one of those GM meetings huh? Or top into one of those conference calls.

All I know is out of any team, I'd like Luongo to go to Florida. It's a team on the upswing, in the Eastern Conference, that I happen to like. Anything to make sure he's not in Toronto or Chicago.

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08-01-2012, 02:03 AM
  #215
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Originally Posted by Figz14 View Post
No matter how good a player is you can't expect results if you put **** in front of him. Every good player thrives off other good players. Every franchise player has great players around him that brings them success. If Luongo faltered in Florida it's cause of your incompetent GM that couldn't build a competitor.

You can't compare Vokoun to Luongo.

How would the salary kill the Panthers chances of making the playoffs. Please explain.
Every season Vokoun played in for Florida, he was better than Loungo was last year. Loungo isn't getting better. He's getting worse. And incompetent GM? It's called a budget team. Which is why it's important to draft well and throwing away great prospects for an inconsistent goalie kills teams like the Florida Panthers.

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08-01-2012, 02:22 AM
  #216
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Originally Posted by SunshineRays View Post
The $6.75M of salary is irrelevant, they aren't the Phx Coyotes. Canucks owners have $$. Its about the cap hit, Gillis and Gilman are cap nazis.
Duh, it's not irrelevant because the Panthers care more about actual salary than cap dollars. Why? Because they won't be a cap team!

But hey, if Canucks owner wants Luongo to hang around as back-up and pay him 6.75M per year, that's perfectly fine.

Just don't go around telling other fans what they should do.

If I were Tallon, I'd never trade Bjugstad straight up for Luongo. Panthers are good enough in goal, whatever (possible) advantage they would get with Luongo isn't worth one of their top prospects.

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08-01-2012, 02:30 AM
  #217
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Duh, it's not irrelevant because the Panthers care more about actual salary than cap dollars. Why? Because they won't be a cap team!

But hey, if Canucks owner wants Luongo to hang around as back-up and pay him 6.75M per year, that's perfectly fine.

Just don't go around telling other fans what they should do.

If I were Tallon, I'd never trade Bjugstad straight up for Luongo. Panthers are good enough in goal, whatever (possible) advantage they would get with Luongo isn't worth one of their top prospects.
If you read the post I was quoting you'd know I wasn't talking about Florida. I was talking about Vancouver. It's pretty clear Florida cares about salary more than cap space, as they are not a cap team. Nor am I 'going around' telling other fans what they should do - what do I care, fans don't make the decisions.

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08-01-2012, 02:34 AM
  #218
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Originally Posted by SunshineRays View Post
If you read the post I was quoting you'd know I wasn't talking about Florida. I was talking about Vancouver. It's pretty clear Florida cares about salary more than cap space, as they are not a cap team. Nor am I 'going around' telling other fans what they should do - what do I care, fans don't make the decisions.
No, you weren't specifically talking about Florida. But the point in this whole Luongo-saga is that people need to look beyond cap numbers because many of the teams in the league operate under real money budgets, not salary caps.

Luongo's real salary is a huge problem in trading him to Florida.

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08-01-2012, 02:53 AM
  #219
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I'd take Matthias Shore/Petrovic and a 1st

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08-01-2012, 02:54 AM
  #220
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No, you weren't specifically talking about Florida. But the point in this whole Luongo-saga is that people need to look beyond cap numbers because many of the teams in the league operate under real money budgets, not salary caps.

Luongo's real salary is a huge problem in trading him to Florida.
Not sure where this is coming from. Again, I was talking about Vancouver and how they care more about cap space vs. salary. Then i posted "yes I know Florida cares more about salary vs. cap space". Both teams have different concerns, I realize that. It just further proves my point, that Tallon wants (or 'wanted' to at one point) upgrade his goal-tending. You don't enter negotiations on a $40M+ contract if you're not interested in said player. If you're a budget conscious team (like Florida), adding $40M to your roster for a player you 'don't need' is business suicide.

I know you didn't post it, but some people seem to think Tallon would be doing Gillis a 'favor' by taking Luongo. Would you do someone a favor by absorbing $40+M if you don't think they are better value than current assets? Especially if you're using someone elses $$? Obviously not. Tallon, at one point, wanted Luongo. And Gillis isn't likely to trade his #1 goaltender for less valuable assets. There's a middle ground there.


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08-01-2012, 03:03 AM
  #221
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I have a question for Florida fans.
Do you believe there is a plan in place for the possibility that Theo regresses back to where he was not to long ago while in Colorado?

I know he was good for you guys last year, but he's been very hit and a lot more miss in the latter part of his career. He did very well one season with the Avs and than bam fell flat on his face the next season, and I believe it bought him a ticket outta town.

Are you guys comfortable letting Clemmenson take over for any extended period of time? Or is pushing Markstrom into the role despite not knowing if he's ready for the heavy work load than back up plan?


I'm honestly curious because I've followed Theo a bit since we played him lots over the past 4 or so years. I also have slight interest in the Panthers because I like how theyre a small market team truly trying to make it work and bring in the fans. I just don't know any real Panthers fans

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08-01-2012, 03:34 AM
  #222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
No, you weren't specifically talking about Florida. But the point in this whole Luongo-saga is that people need to look beyond cap numbers because many of the teams in the league operate under real money budgets, not salary caps.

Luongo's real salary is a huge problem in trading him to Florida.
Pretty sure the Panthers beat writer on twitter said Tallon got the green light to go ahead and do a Luongo deal.

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08-01-2012, 04:03 AM
  #223
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I'd take Matthias Shore/Petrovic and a 1st
And honestly I see this as being a bit more on the realistic side of things. Although I don't think the Panthers would want to move both Matthias and Shore considering a total lack of depth at center, but you get the idea.

Still don't think they should part with that much myself, but it wouldn't shock me.

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08-01-2012, 04:41 AM
  #224
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Originally Posted by Dr Beinfest View Post
And honestly I see this as being a bit more on the realistic side of things. Although I don't think the Panthers would want to move both Matthias and Shore considering a total lack of depth at center, but you get the idea.

Still don't think they should part with that much myself, but it wouldn't shock me.
As a Canucks fan I'd be happy with Matthias + Petrovic + 1st. Really like that Luongo was traded for Bertuzzi, Bertuzzi was traded for Matthias, and now Matthias would be traded for Luongo.

(NOTE: not to be a hater but I see Florida as a lottery team even if Luongo shows up and puts up a 0.925 save%...I think they will be a big dropper so I value their 1st a lot more than say Toronto's or Tampa Bay's both of whom I see as sure playoff bets with Luongo in goal).

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08-01-2012, 05:12 AM
  #225
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Summer 2017 Florida could lose Markstrom to the UFA market and by 2018 Luongo actual Salary will drop to 3 382 000$ ( and then 1 000 000$) it will be a lot more affordable for a budget team like Florida.

So summer 2017 or 2018 could be the right timing for Florida to bring back Luongo.

What could be Luongo value then?

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