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2012 Free Agency Thread - Part XXII: Doan Go Breakin My Heart Edition

View Poll Results: So where do you think we go from here?
RayRay will sign a UFA quality wing in the preseason 4 2.67%
RayRay will sign a UFA grinder because thatís just how we roll 13 8.67%
RayRay will swing a preseason trade for a quality wing 19 12.67%
RayRay will swing a preseason trade for a grinder 2 1.33%
RayRay will give Adams a $11.5 million raise. 22 14.67%
RayRay will swing a trade deadline trade for a quality wing 62 41.33%
RayRay will buy himself $12 million of bling and rock this house 10 6.67%
Who gives a ****? Edward and Bella broke up, OMG 18 12.00%
Voters: 150. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
08-05-2012, 12:09 PM
  #876
Ogrezilla
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Something I was thinking about last night...anyone o e else think that Shero himself might play a factor? OK so look t the past, Staal doesn't want to stay here and wants to go to Carolina...Shero obliges. Michalek perhaps wasn't happy and may have wanted to go back to Phoenix...Shero obliges. I see him as a guy that says to build a great team...but in doing so his players happiness us a priority.

So say Doan signs he and the situation becomes stable in Phoenix...and he wants to retire a Coyote. I think Shero will make that happen a lot less painfully than any other GM. Could that play a factor? And more over the quality of the front office and ownership? The fans aren't pyscho either...that's gotta be a plus. This organization is a classy organization...fits Doan fairly well.

I'm not buying this he'll go to Vancouver because its close. Van is already 1500 miles away. Pit is 2100...you have to fly and make travel arrangements where ever you choose.
the advantage of Vancouver I believe is that his wife is from there or has family there. I could be wrong.

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08-05-2012, 12:17 PM
  #877
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ignoring the details for a second, the bottom line is that the current defensive scheme sucks. immediate help isn't going to be coming in terms of new players, so improvement is going to have to come from the coaching stuff/system/current players adherence to the system.

and yeah, #66, i like bylsma too. just a bit concerned about his d-zone coaching.

people underestimate how valuable the discipline therrien instilled was.
This. This. This. This so ****ing much. There is nothing wrong with the D that the addition of more bottom pairing guys will improve, even if those are "physical". Even the addition of Ryan ****ing Suter while probably able to at least mask some flaws would not have been the right answer.

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08-05-2012, 12:18 PM
  #878
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I just don't get how it worked so much better in 2011 than in 2012. Did the system change? Or did that team just focus much more on defense and playing safe?
Without Sid and Malkin it went into all out defense. It was a great job by Disco to get evryone involved in a new system but that wasn't the Pittsburgh Penguins.

I'm hoping the coaching staff finds a way to seam that structure together with a good transitional game and some puck keep on offense. I actually think a lot of its in place but its the gaps that are the trouble. Coaches like Lavs and Lemaire have exploited that over the years.

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08-05-2012, 12:24 PM
  #879
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Without Sid and Malkin it went into all out defense. It was a great job by Disco to get evryone involved in a new system but that wasn't the Pittsburgh Penguins.

I'm hoping the coaching staff finds a way to seam that structure together with a good transitional game and some puck keep on offense. I actually think a lot of its in place but its the gaps that are the trouble. Coaches like Lavs and Lemaire have exploited that over the years.
No, but considering we were missing our best players I think its safe to say it was BETTER than the Pittsburgh Penguins. Take that team playing exactly as they were and add Sid and Geno to it and they would have walked over Tampa.

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08-05-2012, 12:29 PM
  #880
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This article pretty much answers a lot of questions around here regarding the Wild and any potential trades with the Wild this offseason. Its a great source and I get a good feeling that perhaps something may happen once the CBA s agreed upon (and the cap drops) betweek Ray & Fletcher. Fingers crossed on their forwards remaining healthy while discovering the need for a D on their blueline

http://www.startribune.com/sports/blogs/164999796.html
Very interesting article yes I agree hope the forwards are healthy but in need of D come training camp

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08-05-2012, 12:33 PM
  #881
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No, but considering we were missing our best players I think its safe to say it was BETTER than the Pittsburgh Penguins. Take that team playing exactly as they were and add Sid and Geno to it and they would have walked over Tampa.
I'm still pretty POed about that series. The Pens were up, Guy adjusted and the Pens didn't. All those shots put into Rolo's gut made me insane.

That might be another problem too. Maybe the Pens cater to their stars and offense a little to much. I'm all for freeing up Sid, Malkin and Neal but to what degree?

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08-05-2012, 12:37 PM
  #882
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I'm still pretty POed about that series. The Pens were up, Guy adjusted and the Pens didn't. All those shots put into Rolo's gut made me insane.

That might be another problem too. Maybe the Pens cater to their stars and offense a little to much. I'm all for freeing up Sid, Malkin and Neal but to what degree?
if playing like we did in 2011 loses us scoring titles but gives us even a slightly better chance to win playoff games I do it every time.

and ya, I would say his inability or unwillingness to adjust is Bylsma's biggest weakness. I think that's something that he can improve on though.

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08-05-2012, 02:06 PM
  #883
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is an acceptable stop gap solution in the top 6. Ideally he is a perfect third liner who is capable of filling in for injuries to top 6 guys.
In a perfect world I'd love to see the Pens dump TK, move Dupuis to the 3rd line, and have 2 high quality wingers for Sid.

That said, I'm not even focusing on Dupuis as an issue. He's a good complimentary winger for Sid. If Kunitz stays with Malkin and Neal, the worry shouldn't be about Dupuis, but who will be the other winger on that line for Sid.

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08-05-2012, 02:09 PM
  #884
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In a perfect world I'd love to see the Pens dump TK, move Dupuis to the 3rd line, and have 2 high quality wingers for Sid.

That said, I'm not even focusing on Dupuis as an issue. He's a good complimentary winger for Sid. If Kunitz stays with Malkin and Neal, the worry shouldn't be about Dupuis, but who will be the other winger on that line for Sid.
oh for sure. We will need to add two players for Dupuis to have a chance to be out of the top 6.

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08-05-2012, 02:25 PM
  #885
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Dupuis is a better player without Sidney Crosby.. and for that reason, I wish he'd play with Sutter rather than Sid. People speak of some chemistry the two have, but I've never seen it.

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08-05-2012, 02:36 PM
  #886
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Dupuis is a better player without Sidney Crosby.. and for that reason, I wish he'd play with Sutter rather than Sid. People speak of some chemistry the two have, but I've never seen it.
I would argue that there was some chemistry there when Sid went on a 25-game point streak with Dupuis on his line.

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08-05-2012, 02:39 PM
  #887
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We might agree and I'm not being clear. I'm dumb like that.

When pucks are dumped into the Pens defensive zone or when there are 50/50 pucks I often see the D doubling up behind the net, in the corners or one side of the ice. When the Pens don't get to those pucks or the other team establishes play in the Pens defensive zone its a mad scramble to play a sloppy zone D. A defenseman will rush to the front of the net to take away that area but the well coached teams sneak a player to the weak side post for backdoor goals.

With MT's system a player like Gill would just fall back into the zone defense, protect the net and be aware of what was going on around the net. If the other team had pucks the Pens had a stronger box in front of MAF with less running around. Completely agree that MT had a bad transition game but I think his biggest downfall was falling into a trap rather than work the offensive zone endboards. IMO that pushing ahead was the key to the 09 cup.
No... if you look at MT's system, it was 3 on 3 down low. The reason Gill was protecting his net was because he mostly had the guy right in front of the net. He was so big and do dominant that he could take whatever guy was in front and kill him.

There is a combination of our answer which is what he Pens need to do. But you guys have it backwards as to what is the issue w/ our zone system. Right now we react/chase instead of play the way we should. That's why you see chase/chase/chase/chase/chase goal.

3 on 3 down low is the best defense. If you have a huge strong defense, then go collapse box and block shots like the Rangers.

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If anything we have way too much chasing & movement. Good defensive teams collapse around the net & block shots. We chase guys around the ice which is a battle your never going to win. I can't count how many times I saw a D-man chase a forward to the blue line leaving the coverage a mess.
The chasing comes from standing around in the first place. It's painfully obvious that we react instead of being the aggressor. If we are attacking, we are ahead of the play. Good teams either collapse or play man defense down low and keep them away from the front of the net.

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08-05-2012, 02:46 PM
  #888
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I would argue that there was some chemistry there when Sid went on a 25-game point streak with Dupuis on his line.
I don't think that was chemistry as much as it was a decent player playing with the best player on the planet. I think you could have put a lot of players in his position and the result would have been the same or better, and that's not a slam against Duper. I love Dupuis, but I don't love him playing with Sid or Geno. I also think Sutter-Dupuis could be a ridiculous 3d line combo.

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08-05-2012, 02:54 PM
  #889
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I don't think that was chemistry as much as it was a decent player playing with the best player on the planet. I think you could have put a lot of players in his position and the result would have been the same or better, and that's not a slam against Duper. I love Dupuis, but I don't love him playing with Sid or Geno. I also think Sutter-Dupuis could be a ridiculous 3d line combo.
I very much agree with the bold. But with the current roster there's just no way we can take Dupuis out of the top 6.

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08-05-2012, 03:11 PM
  #890
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I very much agree with the bold. But with the current roster there's just no way we can take Dupuis out of the top 6.
Pretty much. I think Crosby will be good enough for Dupuis to be fine in the top 6, like usual.. as long Matt Cooke isn't on his left-side. However, this won't stop being from complaining about Dupers hands when he proceeds to do everything right on the ice except score easy goals

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08-05-2012, 03:16 PM
  #891
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I still don't think Dupuis is a problem as a third wheel to Sid and Kunitz. It's not ideal, and it's not going to be sexy to watch, but that line simply works.

Would we prefer a different, more skilled winger there? Yes, but it's not happening unless Shero pulls off some unseen trade.

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08-05-2012, 03:18 PM
  #892
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Pretty much. I think Crosby will be good enough for Dupuis to be fine in the top 6, like usual.. as long Matt Cooke isn't on his left-side. However, this won't stop being from complaining about Dupers hands when he proceeds to do everything right on the ice except score easy goals
With the way Bylsma and our current players right now, I wouldn't be one bit surprised if he doesn't start off the season with Cooke and Dupuis. Bylsma will justify it by Cooke's couple game stint where he scored 5 goals riding shotgun with Sid.

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08-05-2012, 03:19 PM
  #893
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No... if you look at MT's system, it was 3 on 3 down low. The reason Gill was protecting his net was because he mostly had the guy right in front of the net. He was so big and do dominant that he could take whatever guy was in front and kill him.

There is a combination of our answer which is what he Pens need to do. But you guys have it backwards as to what is the issue w/ our zone system. Right now we react/chase instead of play the way we should. That's why you see chase/chase/chase/chase/chase goal.

3 on 3 down low is the best defense. If you have a huge strong defense, then go collapse box and block shots like the Rangers.



The chasing comes from standing around in the first place. It's painfully obvious that we react instead of being the aggressor. If we are attacking, we are ahead of the play. Good teams either collapse or play man defense down low and keep them away from the front of the net.
We might have to just disagree on this one.

I think the Pens play aggressive as soon as the puck enters the zone and load up around the puck. Two D on one side of the ice, two D behind the net.... then when opposing teams gain control they scramble into position without any attention to detail. So we see MAF going side to side a lot and over extending. Then he starts worrying about the players behind him and can't focus on that first save making him look bad. Any goalie would look bad in that case.

Just to ask... do you think the D problems are more about structure or manpower?

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08-05-2012, 03:22 PM
  #894
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We might have to just disagree on this one.

I think the Pens play aggressive as soon as the puck enters the zone and load up around the puck. Two D on one side of the ice, two D behind the net.... then when opposing teams gain control they scramble into position without any attention to detail. So we see MAF going side to side a lot and over extending. Then he starts worrying about the players behind him and can't focus on that first save making him look bad. Any goalie would look bad in that case.

Just to ask... do you think the D problems are more about structure or manpower?
the puck retrieval is more aggressive just because its based on both D-men going back to get it. But when the other team has the puck our current system is much more reactive than Therrien's was.

And I fully believe our defensive issues are a structure problem. Considering the same group of guys was one of the best defenses in the league the year before I don't know how you could argue otherwise. The biggest personnel issue on D is a lack of size but Despres is an upgrade in that department. The biggest thing I worry about is ever having both Martin and Niskanen out there together as they could just get out-muscled by most teams. I hope things work out well enough that we can trade one of Martin or Niskanen and replace them with a bit more size either with Bortuzzo or a trade for a vet.

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08-05-2012, 03:42 PM
  #895
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am i correct in saying the penguins played man-on-man defense under therrien and in the cup year, but now play zone defense? that's my understanding but i just want to make sure i'm not imaging that.

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08-05-2012, 03:56 PM
  #896
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I really didn't think the defence was bad before March, specifically the game against Winnipeg. It wasn't awesome but it was also missing it's biggest component (Letang) for long stretches. When you look at how it was performing, even with Letang in and out and Orpik, Martin and Michalek having bad years, it wasn't that bad before Crosby came back and they got away from the basics.

The Pens forwards had a lot to do with the craptacular defense too.. they didn't control the puck enough, didn't sustain a good enough forcheck in the playoffs, they made stupid decisions on the PP leading to SHG's.. the back-check was garbage.

Above all.. the PK is the biggest reason the Pens suffered so bad defensively in the playoffs... and with no more Michalek or Staal.. it's bound to change, probably for the better (as stupid as that seems) since it's playoff performance can't get any worse.

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08-05-2012, 04:05 PM
  #897
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I really didn't think the defence was bad before March, specifically the game against Winnipeg. It wasn't awesome but it was also missing it's biggest component (Letang) for long stretches. When you look at how it was performing, even with Letang in and out and Orpik, Martin and Michalek having bad years, it wasn't that bad before Crosby came back and they got away from the basics.

The Pens forwards had a lot to do with the craptacular defense too.. they didn't control the puck enough, didn't sustain a good enough forcheck in the playoffs, they made stupid decisions on the PP leading to SHG's.. the back-check was garbage.

Above all.. the PK is the biggest reason the Pens suffered so bad defensively in the playoffs... and with no more Michalek or Staal.. it's bound to change, probably for the better (as stupid as that seems) since it's playoff performance can't get any worse.
there was also an obvious problem all season where the forwards would start up ice to get in position for the stretch passes before the defense really had possession of the puck. Led to a LOT of turnovers and odd man chances against.

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08-05-2012, 04:22 PM
  #898
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there was also an obvious problem all season where the forwards would start up ice to get in position for the stretch passes before the defense really had possession of the puck. Led to a LOT of turnovers and odd man chances against.
So annoying. Definitely way too much focus on offense from the forwards last year.

I think a subtraction of players like Sullivan will be beneficial for the team. I, for one, look forward to a hopefully more blue-collar Penguins team this year. Give me this years team with the style of play of the 2011 Penguins all day. I loved that team and thought that team could go all the way with a healthy Crosby/Malkin.

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08-05-2012, 04:50 PM
  #899
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Am I the only one that thinks that the Pens with Sid back seemingly could score at will and that they were having so much fun doing it that they lost caring for the defensive side of the game? It had to be fun getting their new toy back after so long, maybe that as much as anything contributed to the defensive woes. Sort of what happened with Staal's game as he added more of an offensive side in a macrocosm.

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08-05-2012, 04:52 PM
  #900
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Am I the only one that thinks that the Pens with Sid back seemingly could score at will and that they were having so much fun doing it that they lost caring for the defensive side of the game? It had to be fun getting their new toy back after so long, maybe that as much as anything contributed to the defensive woes. Sort of what happened with Staal's game as he added more of an offensive side in a macrocosm.
I think how hard the team had to work through all the injuries played a little into our defensive issues when Sid came back. Team started getting into bad habits and didn't have time to correct them before the postseason.

Plus Martin and Orpik played like hot garbage much of the season.

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