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2012 Free Agency Thread - Part XXII: Doan Go Breakin My Heart Edition

View Poll Results: So where do you think we go from here?
RayRay will sign a UFA quality wing in the preseason 4 2.67%
RayRay will sign a UFA grinder because that’s just how we roll 13 8.67%
RayRay will swing a preseason trade for a quality wing 19 12.67%
RayRay will swing a preseason trade for a grinder 2 1.33%
RayRay will give Adams a $11.5 million raise. 22 14.67%
RayRay will swing a trade deadline trade for a quality wing 62 41.33%
RayRay will buy himself $12 million of bling and rock this house 10 6.67%
Who gives a ****? Edward and Bella broke up, OMG 18 12.00%
Voters: 150. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
08-05-2012, 05:01 PM
  #901
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Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan View Post
Am I the only one that thinks that the Pens with Sid back seemingly could score at will and that they were having so much fun doing it that they lost caring for the defensive side of the game? It had to be fun getting their new toy back after so long, maybe that as much as anything contributed to the defensive woes. Sort of what happened with Staal's game as he added more of an offensive side in a macrocosm.
That definitely played a role in the undoing of the 2012 Pens

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08-05-2012, 06:10 PM
  #902
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Originally Posted by Til the End of Time View Post
am i correct in saying the penguins played man-on-man defense under therrien and in the cup year, but now play zone defense? that's my understanding but i just want to make sure i'm not imaging that.
You are correct.

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08-05-2012, 06:33 PM
  #903
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I think how hard the team had to work through all the injuries played a little into our defensive issues when Sid came back. Team started getting into bad habits and didn't have time to correct them before the postseason.

Plus Martin and Orpik played like hot garbage much of the season.
Ya, you could kinda tell that once Sid came back everyone took their foot off the peddle a bit. It was like they said to themselves, "Sid's back and we're scoring 5 goals a game, I don't need to try so hard on defense anymore."

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08-05-2012, 07:39 PM
  #904
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Originally Posted by Til the End of Time View Post
am i correct in saying the penguins played man-on-man defense under therrien and in the cup year, but now play zone defense? that's my understanding but i just want to make sure i'm not imaging that.
If we are playing zone now Bylsma either doesn't know how to coach it or the players aren't paying attention. If you're playing zone you should never see defense men chasing to the entire way to the blue line. You're never going to win the battle when the player has the puck. He has all the advantage positioning wise which is why the best teams play a passive zone defense. This & that stupid stretch pass are my biggest problems with Bylsma.

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08-05-2012, 07:42 PM
  #905
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Ya, you could kinda tell that once Sid came back everyone took their foot off the peddle a bit. It was like they said to themselves, "Sid's back and we're scoring 5 goals a game, I don't need to try so hard on defense anymore."
Saw a lot of guys like Staal & Asham turn the puck over in the neutral zone. Guys weren't making the small plays. It was complete failure out almost every level.

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08-05-2012, 08:32 PM
  #906
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Cole is absolutely correct.

And it's not really about guys standing around but where they're standing around. They get sucked to one side and no one slides into the front of the net or high slot to cover.



P = for penguin player
O = for opposition



__________________________________________
CORNER
O/P-D-man
.O/P---P-D-man-Standing around---------------net---------------------
O/p





-----------P-Standing around


---O-D-man-----------------------------------------O-D-man


_____________________________________________

Now how many times can you remember last year with the Pens being over committed to one side of the ice leaving the entire one side of the ice and....in front of the net vacated?

Nobody slid out of the board battle to cover the net and the guy standing around up high didn't realize it was vacated and didn't collapse down to the slot.

Wires got crossed a lot last year as to whom should be where or not vocal enough to whom they were covering.

It was disgusting to see guys from the other team get freebie shots coming straight down the slot and nobody in sight covering it/him.

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08-05-2012, 08:41 PM
  #907
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I'm no expert, but I'm with Cole. We don't pressure enough. Allow teams to gain the zone too easily and no man D down low. We change that we'll look a lot more like we did in 09.

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08-05-2012, 08:46 PM
  #908
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Not sure what the sources are on these articles, but took themfrom the PHX board:

"Phoenix Coyotes captain Shane Doan is tired of waiting for the team's ownership to be settled and will start negotiating with other teams if a sale doesn't go through this weekend, according to Sports 620 in Phoenix."

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Hockey/NHL.../20034396.html


"Doan, who understandably wants this to be the last move he makes, is believed to have narrowed his sights on Manhattan, Pittsburgh and Vancouver."

Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/range...#ixzz22j6D9DaF

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08-05-2012, 08:48 PM
  #909
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Originally Posted by Duck Paddy View Post
Not sure what this guy's sources are, but took this from the PHX board:


"Doan, who understandably wants this to be the last move he makes, is believed to have narrowed his sights on Manhattan, Pittsburgh and Vancouver."

Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/range...#ixzz22j6D9DaF
Larry Brooks..

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08-05-2012, 08:49 PM
  #910
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Larry Brooks..
Is he a quack?

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08-05-2012, 08:53 PM
  #911
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Is he a quack?
Yeah he's a writer for the NYpost which is a rag.. doesn't have much credibility from what I know.

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08-05-2012, 08:54 PM
  #912
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Originally Posted by eXile59 View Post
If we are playing zone now Bylsma either doesn't know how to coach it or the players aren't paying attention. If you're playing zone you should never see defense men chasing to the entire way to the blue line. You're never going to win the battle when the player has the puck. He has all the advantage positioning wise which is why the best teams play a passive zone defense. This & that stupid stretch pass are my biggest problems with Bylsma.
And there in lies the problem and we have to guess about what the Pens are doing. I think we see them over chasing against the rush and then fall back into the zone when they can't get possession. Its that scramble in between where things get lost and needs to be cleaned up. When teams possess the puck in the Pens defensive zone the Pens fall apart.

MT played man on man against the rush so we saw good gaps against guys like AO but he also played a strong box in front of MAF. Once plays were established in the Pens defensive zone he usually put a pretty strong box in front of MAF and there was always one Dman there. Now it seems like 2 defenseman go into the corner while F3 covers the front of the net. Once the other teams possess the puck the defenseman races back into place just to take away space and hopefully find an assignment. Coaches like Lavs and Lemaire feast on that and just sneak players backdoor time and time again.

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08-05-2012, 08:57 PM
  #913
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Originally Posted by Duck Paddy View Post
Is he a quack?
Yes.

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08-05-2012, 09:38 PM
  #914
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ugene Malkin View Post
Cole is absolutely correct.

And it's not really about guys standing around but where they're standing around. They get sucked to one side and no one slides into the front of the net or high slot to cover.



P = for penguin player
O = for opposition



__________________________________________
CORNER
O/P-D-man
.O/P---P-D-man-Standing around---------------net---------------------
O/p





-----------P-Standing around


---O-D-man-----------------------------------------O-D-man


_____________________________________________

Now how many times can you remember last year with the Pens being over committed to one side of the ice leaving the entire one side of the ice and....in front of the net vacated?

Nobody slid out of the board battle to cover the net and the guy standing around up high didn't realize it was vacated and didn't collapse down to the slot.

Wires got crossed a lot last year as to whom should be where or not vocal enough to whom they were covering.

It was disgusting to see guys from the other team get freebie shots coming straight down the slot and nobody in sight covering it/him.
Thanks. I think this is what I'm trying to say but didn't have the verbage to do it. I guess that I want to say that its a zone defense but not your typical zone defense. My problem with the system is that weak side defenseman.

Having a zone defense that over commits to one side of the ice is almost as bad as a puck possession team that plays a glorified version of dump and chase.

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08-05-2012, 09:53 PM
  #915
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #66 View Post
Thanks. I think this is what I'm trying to say but didn't have the verbage to do it. I guess that I want to say that its a zone defense but not your typical zone defense. My problem with the system is that weak side defenseman.

Having a zone defense that over commits to one side of the ice is almost as bad as a puck possession team that plays a glorified version of dump and chase.
Oh hell yeah.. you are 100% correct. The old coaching perception of a zone concept is to cut the other (weak) side of the ice off w/ layers. Problem is...NHL players are ****ing good and know how to open it up. Collapse to block shots or play man. It's the only way in the NHL.

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08-05-2012, 10:09 PM
  #916
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Originally Posted by #66 View Post
Thanks. I think this is what I'm trying to say but didn't have the verbage to do it. I guess that I want to say that its a zone defense but not your typical zone defense. My problem with the system is that weak side defenseman.

Having a zone defense that over commits to one side of the ice is almost as bad as a puck possession team that plays a glorified version of dump and chase.
This man nails it.

You can't go 100% man-to-man and you can't go 100% zone. It needs to be like 75% man-to-man, but they also need someone in front at all times. Far too often the slot and high slot were gaping and no one seemed to care. Even if it is the center or a backchecking winger providing coverage, the center of the ice needs to be watched.

Zone defense without covering the center of the ice is just pure lunacy. And it's what the Pens did last season, all season long. If they don't fix it, I expect the results to be the same.

Bottom-line: our system and our players need to be more intelligent and flexible.

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08-05-2012, 10:26 PM
  #917
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Originally Posted by Ominous Grey View Post
This man nails it.

You can't go 100% man-to-man and you can't go 100% zone. It needs to be like 75% man-to-man, but they also need someone in front at all times. Far too often the slot and high slot were gaping and no one seemed to care. Even if it is the center or a backchecking winger providing coverage, the center of the ice needs to be watched.

Zone defense without covering the center of the ice is just pure lunacy. And it's what the Pens did last season, all season long. If they don't fix it, I expect the results to be the same.

Bottom-line: our system and our players need to be more intelligent and flexible.
This is strange because I've never really heard of man-to-man in hockey. In all my days of playing it was just zone. Not saying it doesn't happen, it's just a foreign concept to me. As long as the players are disciplined (which they weren't last year), zone shouldn't be too much of a problem. But they were just all over the place last year

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08-05-2012, 10:34 PM
  #918
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Is he a quack?
In the sense that he works for an outlet that encourages him to openly broadcast his grudges against the people and teams he covers, yes.

But the guy has been doing the job for many, many years and has many, many excellent sources. His opinions may inflame, but I would trust his reporting.

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08-05-2012, 10:34 PM
  #919
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This is strange because I've never really heard of man-to-man in hockey. In all my days of playing it was just zone. Not saying it doesn't happen, it's just a foreign concept to me. As long as the players are disciplined (which they weren't last year), zone shouldn't be too much of a problem. But they were just all over the place last year
I don't think its strict man to man in the sense that Orpik always covers Ovechkin. I think its more along the lines of if the first guy below the faceoff dots is on the left side, he is now the left D's guy while he's below the faceoff circles. If he falls back towards the blue line the wing would pick him up and the D finds a new guy. Or at least I think thats what should happen. We had D-men following guys to the blueline last year and it was a disaster.

I'm not actually sure exactly how it works, but I know its not everybody with a strict match-up and I know its not everywhere on the ice.


Last edited by Ogrezilla: 08-05-2012 at 10:43 PM.
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08-05-2012, 10:55 PM
  #920
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Originally Posted by Duck Paddy View Post
Not sure what the sources are on these articles, but took themfrom the PHX board:

"Phoenix Coyotes captain Shane Doan is tired of waiting for the team's ownership to be settled and will start negotiating with other teams if a sale doesn't go through this weekend, according to Sports 620 in Phoenix."

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Hockey/NHL.../20034396.html


"Doan, who understandably wants this to be the last move he makes, is believed to have narrowed his sights on Manhattan, Pittsburgh and Vancouver."

Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/range...#ixzz22j6D9DaF
Please let it be just NY and Vancouver...keep the Pens out of it. Some team is going to pay Doan between 6-7m, it should NOT be the Penguins.

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08-05-2012, 10:59 PM
  #921
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
I don't think its strict man to man in the sense that Orpik always covers Ovechkin. I think its more along the lines of if the first guy below the faceoff dots is on the left side, he is now the left D's guy while he's below the faceoff circles. If he falls back towards the blue line the wing would pick him up and the D finds a new guy. Or at least I think thats what should happen. We had D-men following guys to the blueline last year and it was a disaster.

I'm not actually sure exactly how it works, but I know its not everybody with a strict match-up and I know its not everywhere on the ice.
Okay that's what I was thinking. I was kinda confused for a little . But yeah I understand what you're getting at. It's basically a hybrid. Each player has his zone, and plays the man who is in their zone.

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08-05-2012, 11:02 PM
  #922
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Please let it be just NY and Vancouver...keep the Pens out of it. Some team is going to pay Doan between 6-7m, it should NOT be the Penguins.
Agreed. If semin, age 28 or whatever and on a 1 year contract is too risky for the pens they better not be even considering a 4 year deal for Doan. It would be the definition of a desperation move. We've all moved on from signing any free agents.

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08-05-2012, 11:19 PM
  #923
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Agreed. If semin, age 28 or whatever and on a 1 year contract is too risky for the pens they better not be even considering a 4 year deal for Doan. It would be the definition of a desperation move. We've all moved on from signing any free agents.
How do you know it's a desperation move? I've watched a lot of Phoenix as Tippett is my favorite coach. I love their style of play and it's how hockey should be played.

That being said - you cannot compare Semin and Doan. You just can't. It makes ZERO sense.

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08-05-2012, 11:22 PM
  #924
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Originally Posted by Von Malkin View Post
Agreed. If semin, age 28 or whatever and on a 1 year contract is too risky for the pens they better not be even considering a 4 year deal for Doan. It would be the definition of a desperation move. We've all moved on from signing any free agents.
maybe they like him more as a player. Longer term and age make him a bigger risk in a few years, but on a short term and game to game basis he is a less risky player. He is always going to show up and play well.

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08-05-2012, 11:26 PM
  #925
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Is he a quack?
He told his readers circa 2002-2003 to 'Look for the Penguins to be sold and moved and for Lemieux to play for the Rangers'.

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