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2012 Free Agency Thread - Part XXII: Doan Go Breakin My Heart Edition

View Poll Results: So where do you think we go from here?
RayRay will sign a UFA quality wing in the preseason 4 2.67%
RayRay will sign a UFA grinder because thatís just how we roll 13 8.67%
RayRay will swing a preseason trade for a quality wing 19 12.67%
RayRay will swing a preseason trade for a grinder 2 1.33%
RayRay will give Adams a $11.5 million raise. 22 14.67%
RayRay will swing a trade deadline trade for a quality wing 62 41.33%
RayRay will buy himself $12 million of bling and rock this house 10 6.67%
Who gives a ****? Edward and Bella broke up, OMG 18 12.00%
Voters: 150. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
07-31-2012, 10:11 AM
  #176
Zbynek
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How about this for a scenario...

New CBA gets done, salary cap goes down, teams forced to move players on the cheap? Ray Shero swoops in for the fleece job.

Prime targets: those close to cap ceiling. Minnesota, Boston, Vancouver.

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07-31-2012, 10:13 AM
  #177
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Originally Posted by JTG View Post
I'm not sure how a one time 30 goal scorer, and a perennial 20 goal scorer isn't something that anyone would want. Particularly one with a wicked shot who can be placed immediately on the left wall of the powerplay.

Seto has been scoring 20 goals with 70 games played for the last 3 years. When he played with an elite center he scored 30. We have everything a goal scorer like him needs here.
What is he going to cost though?

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07-31-2012, 10:13 AM
  #178
Le Magnifique 66
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Originally Posted by TravisUlrich View Post
It's interesting to look around the rosters and see just how much parity there is going to be. For example, look at the "mighty" Detroit Red Wings:



Good first line, Kronwall is good but definitely lacks greatness.

Man, if we would have managed to sign Parise and/or Suter, our roster would have looked like the superpower of the league. Same with Philly if they would have gotten Weber.

One thing I hope Ray learned about this year is that the big fish don't necessarily go first. While we were waiting for Parise to make up his mind, we missed out on re-signing Sullivan or grabbing someone like Ray Whitney.
Yup loss of Hudler and especially Lidstrom are going to hurt them I think Holland was a little too convinced Suter was going to sign there. Tough off season for the Wings

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07-31-2012, 10:16 AM
  #179
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Originally Posted by Zbynek View Post
How about this for a scenario...

New CBA gets done, salary cap goes down, teams forced to move players on the cheap? Ray Shero swoops in for the fleece job.

Prime targets: those close to cap ceiling. Minnesota, Boston, Vancouver.

That could be his plan c(d.e.f?) if he is unable to sign Doan (which we all doubt). Just sit on the space and pick up bought out players/trade for salary dumps.

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07-31-2012, 10:18 AM
  #180
Le Magnifique 66
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Originally Posted by Zbynek View Post
How about this for a scenario...

New CBA gets done, salary cap goes down, teams forced to move players on the cheap? Ray Shero swoops in for the fleece job.

Prime targets: those close to cap ceiling. Minnesota, Boston, Vancouver.
We trade for Parise and Suter

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07-31-2012, 10:26 AM
  #181
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Scott Hannan, Colin White, Mark Eaton. Are you guys out of your minds? We are always clamoring for our prospects to get a chance and when they are finally ready, we would prefer to sign old ass veterans that will be at best equals to the Straits and Borts of the world. Now is time to let the kids get bottom pairing minutes. No more stop gap veterans on D. Hell, we already have to get rid of Lovejoy and likely one of Strait or Bort. Let's not make it all 3.
Playing defense is the hardest position in hockey and sometimes it takes a few seasons for a player to become consistently good. Too many people on here think some of these prospects can make that major jump from Juniors or College to the NHL with no problems and it rarely works out that way. Pens will need to acquire some veteran help on defense, that's why some of the suggestions.

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07-31-2012, 10:30 AM
  #182
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Originally Posted by gordie View Post
Playing defense is the hardest position in hockey and sometimes it takes a few seasons for a player to become consistently good. Too many people on here think some of these prospects can make that major jump from Juniors or College to the NHL with no problems and it rarely works out that way. Pens will need to acquire some veteran help on defense, that's why some of the suggestions.
ya but none of the guys we have will be going from Juniors or College to the NHL. Despres, Strait, & Bortuzzo all played in the AHL last year

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07-31-2012, 10:32 AM
  #183
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Originally Posted by Le Magnifique 66 View Post
We trade for Parise and Suter
Taking a look at Minnesota's roster now. If the cap drops as low as 64-65M either Setoguchi or Heatley become expendable IMO.

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07-31-2012, 10:34 AM
  #184
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Originally Posted by JTG View Post
I'm not sure how a one time 30 goal scorer, and a perennial 20 goal scorer isn't something that anyone would want. Particularly one with a wicked shot who can be placed immediately on the left wall of the powerplay.

Seto has been scoring 20 goals with 70 games played for the last 3 years. When he played with an elite center he scored 30. We have everything a goal scorer like him needs here.
I can understand people not seeing him available. Or not wanting to pay the price for him. But he's a perfect fit here.

I'm just gonna start throwing out YT videos of him in response to people belittling his talent and/or comparing him to Dupuis or TK.


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07-31-2012, 10:35 AM
  #185
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Originally Posted by gordie View Post
Playing defense is the hardest position in hockey and sometimes it takes a few seasons for a player to become consistently good. Too many people on here think some of these prospects can make that major jump from Juniors or College to the NHL with no problems and it rarely works out that way. Pens will need to acquire some veteran help on defense, that's why some of the suggestions.
Despres and Strait showed enough in the NHL last year to make me believe they can stick in the NHL. Strait and Bortuzzo have enough AHL experience where they are as ready as they are likely ever going to be. We aren't expecting Dumoulin and Morrow to make the team. We are expecting guys from WBS to make the team.

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07-31-2012, 10:50 AM
  #186
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Originally Posted by gordie View Post
Playing defense is the hardest position in hockey and sometimes it takes a few seasons for a player to become consistently good. Too many people on here think some of these prospects can make that major jump from Juniors or College to the NHL with no problems and it rarely works out that way. Pens will need to acquire some veteran help on defense, that's why some of the suggestions.
Sure some of these guys need a year or two in the minors first, but you can't learn to swim if you never put your feet in the water. Will Despres make mistakes this year? Yeah. But you can't hide him in WBS forever.

Of course I don't know how much I trust an Orpik/Letang/Martin/Niskanen top 4.

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07-31-2012, 10:51 AM
  #187
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Strait and Bortuzzo being out of options this year, and potentially lost for nothing, and similar looming every year far into the future, is the achille's heel of Shero's 'neeed more defensemen, all your defensemen are MINE!' approach.

I keep hearing how we are going to be able to flip these guys for 40 goal scorers at will. We will be lucky to get anything for some of these guys, let alone value. And unless they get time to develope, and make mistakes on the roster like Gogo did (and he looked so putrid his first couple of years, scary bad mistakes over and over) then they will not garner you much of anything. Prospects have value but not that much. It is a problem and is one that is going to be with us year after year because of the blinders Shero wears to drafting and developing forwards.

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07-31-2012, 11:01 AM
  #188
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Originally Posted by Zbynek View Post
Taking a look at Minnesota's roster now. If the cap drops as low as 64-65M either Setoguchi or Heatley become expendable IMO.
They would most probably try to move Heatley if that's the case. And Heatley depending on what is going the other way would also put us over the cap if it would drop to 64-65

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07-31-2012, 11:02 AM
  #189
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Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan View Post
Strait and Bortuzzo being out of options this year, and potentially lost for nothing, and similar looming every year far into the future, is the achille's heel of Shero's 'neeed more defensemen, all your defensemen are MINE!' approach.

I keep hearing how we are going to be able to flip these guys for 40 goal scorers at will. We will be lucky to get anything for some of these guys, let alone value. And unless they get time to develope, and make mistakes on the roster like Gogo did (and he looked so putrid his first couple of years, scary bad mistakes over and over) then they will not garner you much of anything. Prospects have value but not that much. It is a problem and is one that is going to be with us year after year because of the blinders Shero wears to drafting and developing forwards.
He could be planning to use the guys picked later as replacements and the guys we already have playing as the trade chips. Dumoulin doesn't need trade value if he is able to replace Orpik because HE has trade value. Morrow doesn't need trade value if he is able to replace Martin because HE has trade value. Three years from now Pouliot and Maatta might be doing the same thing to Despres or Morrow. Or they might just replace Niskanen and Engelland and give us a stacked young defense on cheap contracts.

After Strait and Bortuzzo, when is the next time one of these top D prospects is waiver eligible? We don't need to rush them. We also don't need 40 goal scorers, so that will make the trades less impossible to find.


Last edited by Ogrezilla: 07-31-2012 at 11:08 AM.
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07-31-2012, 11:06 AM
  #190
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He could be planning to use the guys picked later as replacements and the guys we already have playing as the trade chips. Dumoulin doesn't need trade value, he needs to be able to replace Orpik because HE has trade value. Morrow doesn't need trade value, he needs to be able to replace Martin because HE has trade value..
wait... Martin has trade value?

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07-31-2012, 11:08 AM
  #191
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wait... Martin has trade value?
yes he does.

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07-31-2012, 11:10 AM
  #192
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wait... Martin has trade value?
For all the blasting by some here, yes, and more than you would think. That said he has more value to us at this point. I really believe that he will bounce back big this year, and said that when I believed that he would end up elsewhere. We are the cup favorites according to a number of people, including the Vegas oddsmakers. You do not want to have half your defense rookies if you have cup aspirations. Look at my example of Gogo above, even the good ones have a learning curve and will make a lot of mistakes.

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07-31-2012, 11:26 AM
  #193
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Same discussion was going on in both threads so I merged the two. Poll is still above.

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07-31-2012, 11:27 AM
  #194
Shady Machine
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Originally Posted by gordie View Post
Playing defense is the hardest position in hockey and sometimes it takes a few seasons for a player to become consistently good. Too many people on here think some of these prospects can make that major jump from Juniors or College to the NHL with no problems and it rarely works out that way. Pens will need to acquire some veteran help on defense, that's why some of the suggestions.
Okay so how does an AHL dman with 3 years of experience in the pros ever enter the NHL? I'm not claiming we need to give Morrow or Dumoulin a job. As of now we have:

Letang
Martin
Orpik
Niskanen
Engelland

as proven NHL regulars. We then have

Strait
Bortuzzo
Despres
Lovejoy

with NHL experience. The last thing we need is a veteran bottom pairing guy. Now, if you want to argue we need a veteran top 4 dman I will agree. But, getting a major upgrade over Despres and Niskanen isn't going to be easy or cheap to acquire (especially since we traded away a top 4 veteran dman for peanuts). Therefore, it makes a TON more sense to roll with what we have and pick up a veteran dman at the deadline if the kids don't pan out.

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07-31-2012, 11:28 AM
  #195
Zbynek
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They would most probably try to move Heatley if that's the case. And Heatley depending on what is going the other way would also put us over the cap if it would drop to 64-65
Not if we sent some salary the other way

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07-31-2012, 11:28 AM
  #196
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Originally Posted by Zbynek View Post
Taking a look at Minnesota's roster now. If the cap drops as low as 64-65M either Setoguchi or Heatley become expendable IMO.
That also means we'd have to move a guy or 2 to acquire one of them.

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07-31-2012, 11:29 AM
  #197
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After Strait and Bortuzzo, when is the next time one of these top D prospects is waiver eligible? We don't need to rush them. We also don't need 40 goal scorers, so that will make the trades less impossible to find.
pretty much this, 2 years til Despres needs to clear waivers, which shouldnt be an issue anyway. and 3 years atleast for our other top prospects. if we'd lose someone like samuelsson(in 2 years) or sneep, who cares

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07-31-2012, 11:29 AM
  #198
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Same discussion was going on in both threads so I merged the two. Poll is still above.
Thank you.

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07-31-2012, 11:41 AM
  #199
Le Magnifique 66
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Not if we sent some salary the other way
Exactly which wouldn't make sense for them since they would rather keep Heatley then get back salaries

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07-31-2012, 11:43 AM
  #200
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Originally Posted by Zbynek View Post
How about this for a scenario...

New CBA gets done, salary cap goes down, teams forced to move players on the cheap? Ray Shero swoops in for the fleece job.

Prime targets: those close to cap ceiling. Minnesota, Boston, Vancouver.
Interesting theory but pretty unlikely, as even if the cap goes down a bit, it won't be more than a couple million dollars IMO. Not enough to cause teams to purge good players.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zbynek View Post
Taking a look at Minnesota's roster now. If the cap drops as low as 64-65M either Setoguchi or Heatley become expendable IMO.
I think it would be Seto. They still lack bigtime offensive talent, aside from Parise and Heatley. I don't see how they help themselves by letting him go.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
I can understand people not seeing him available. Or not wanting to pay the price for him. But he's a perfect fit here.

I'm just gonna start throwing out YT videos of him in response to people belittling his talent and/or comparing him to Dupuis or TK.

Yah I'm a little leery of how good he'd be overall (i.e. may never reach 30G again but I'd be fine with 25 every year), but he's definitely a skill upgrade over Kennedy. That's no contest. Dupuis' other skills make him more useful than TK so yah. Happily cut Kennedy loose as part of a larger package of assets (probably prospect or pick) to get Seto, if we had the chance.

Seto goes to Line 1, Dupuis to Line 3 (where he's a great fit), and HFB lives happily ever after.

As things are currently MN is a buyer IMO not a seller. They will not do anything to degrade their offensive depth, even if it increases defensive depth.

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