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Trade deadline passed, waiver-trades still possible

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Old
08-02-2012, 02:36 PM
  #1126
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Originally Posted by weems View Post
All my posts have been directed at what we should do this offseason.
Well then I believe you are arguing something different than the rest of us -- my posts were in response to the Jays not having done one of these moves to date.

I'd be for it this off season for sure.


Last edited by PugFugly: 08-02-2012 at 02:41 PM. Reason: forgot a word
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08-02-2012, 02:39 PM
  #1127
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Ya we have aquired talent but AA hasnt aquired a SINGLE proven pitcher in his enture tenure. He aquired Morrow who at the time as a project and noone was certain if he could really crack it as a legit starter fulltime. He needs to go out this offseason and get a legit arm and if that costs some of our good prospects then so be it.

This whole discussion started with someone saying we wont will totally ingore FA and not be able to make prospect for proven player deals.
Pitching is expensive, we were years away from competing at the time so we went for project players like Morrow. Santos was brought in last off season to shore up our pen and he got hurt. We have since got Lincoln and Delabar for the pen and so far look pretty good (still way early). Are we there yet? nope but we are starting to see our biggest weakness being addressed. While it would be great to upgrade the entire team at once realistically and practically its not possible. We are 1 more good pen arm and 1 more workhorse starter away from being a legit playoff contender, both things that should be easily acquired this off season. Dont stress over who we might or might not get. AA has the biggest scouting staff in the business and its their job to identify talent that is on the rise and im sure thats what we will do. Lets not forget we have added Happ who qualifies under that who has yet to really be used.

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08-02-2012, 02:41 PM
  #1128
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Originally Posted by thatshype View Post
5 core pieces is amazing actually...there are plenty of teams that wish they had the 5-piece core PLUS good prospects that we have.
I'd also argue most teams currently holding a playoff position hold more than 5.

Also consider that Rasmus and Encarnacion weren't on that list going into the season, so it would have just been Lawrie, Bautista and Romero.

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08-02-2012, 02:42 PM
  #1129
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Originally Posted by canucksfan View Post
So you have no evidence. That's all I wanted to know. Thanks.
Sure its easy to say yes they will spend money but how do you know they will? Cause they say so??? Hell I will tell you Adam Lind is a gold glove 1st baseman but just because I say it doesn't mean its true.

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08-02-2012, 02:43 PM
  #1130
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I'd also argue most teams currently holding a playoff position hold more than 5.

Also consider that Rasmus and Encarnacion weren't on that list going into the season, so it would have just been Lawrie, Bautista and Romero.
Did Morrow die or something?

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08-02-2012, 02:46 PM
  #1131
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Pitching is expensive, we were years away from competing at the time so we went for project players like Morrow. Santos was brought in last off season to shore up our pen and he got hurt. We have since got Lincoln and Delabar for the pen and so far look pretty good (still way early). Are we there yet? nope but we are starting to see our biggest weakness being addressed. While it would be great to upgrade the entire team at once realistically and practically its not possible. We are 1 more good pen arm and 1 more workhorse starter away from being a legit playoff contender, both things that should be easily acquired this off season. Dont stress over who we might or might not get. AA has the biggest scouting staff in the business and its their job to identify talent that is on the rise and im sure thats what we will do. Lets not forget we have added Happ who qualifies under that who has yet to really be used.
Ya Happ does. I should have been more specific then and said aquire a good proven pitcher. Happ is basically junk and is like a #5 starter at best in this division and ballpark.

Im also confused. Just a few days ago when there were rumours of the Jays trying to aquire Garza and having watched a side session of his you were saying that Garza would be a quality aqusition but now your going on about people stupid for being interested in someone at the deadline with no term past 2013.

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08-02-2012, 02:46 PM
  #1132
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Originally Posted by Faidh ar Rud Eigin View Post
In 3 years at least one of Sanchez/Syndergaard/Nicolino will be up, Marsinick should be up, Bautista will likely have moved to 1B or DH (Depending on how good EE's defense at 1B is moving forward). The outfield could look like Marsinick-Gose-Rasmus in 3 years. By then the Jays will have got geared into contender mode and will have traded to fill holes, you can't rush too early when our super prospects aren't ready yet.
How do you know these guys will be any good. What if Marsnick is another Snider and the big 3 are more like Litsch, Drabek and Mcgowan.

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08-02-2012, 02:48 PM
  #1133
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Jim Callis of Baseball America was on baseball central last week. He was talking about prospects and basically saying there just that prospects. He used the Gio Gonzalez deal as a example and he said that at the time of the trade everyone thought Oakland ripped off Washington because they got back these 4 prospects but now some of the prospects have either been exposed or struggled and Callis thinks Washington did fantastic getting a young stud pitcher. He went onto say that in these 3 spec for 1 ML player deals, one of the prospects usually turns out to be a above average player, one turns into a everyday guy and the other totally flames out and busts.

It was interesting to hear him talk about the viotile nature of prospects.
That makes sense, after all, that's the reason why teams need to give up 3-4 of their top prospects. The odds of any of them reaching to the level of the player being given is sparce.

All we really need to do is look at the Halladay trade. Albeit its still too early to determine the results, we most likely got a #4 starter, a good catcher, and if we're lucky, an above average outfielder - that would be seen as a good haul, with all 3 contributing at the majors.

These 3 for 1 type deals never really make the same impact as the player being given up - unless the team is one which needs depth.

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With the way Romero has been pitching, I'd say we're at least 2 good starters away, not to mention a 1B/DH (depends which one you define Encarnacion as).

We'd have to gut out prospect pool to acquire all of these, with no guarantee any of them would stick around once they hit free agency in the next year or so.
I think it would be extremely short sighted to write off Romero based on one bad season. He has given us 3 years of excellent pitching, and seems like a guy who's a club house leader. I don't see any reason why he wouldn't rebound to his '10 form at the very least.

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Back then, people were talking about the George Bell window. I guess the Jays were able to win without their former MVP award winner.

If you're talking about windows then your missing the point. AA isn't going for a window. He's going for a sustainable championship worthy team every year.
Okay great, so if we know we aren't going to be playing meaningful ball for the next 3 years, why don't we just deal Bautista and keep adding to this building formula?

Him bringing some butts to the seats could be reason, but I firmly believe he isn't being dealt because AA knows we can make the playoffs within the next 2 years if he plays his cards right. Otherwise, keeping him when his value is at the highest, and not having any hopes of winning, seems very stupid. And I'm quite sure, AA knows that better than us.

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We wouldnt have to "gut" our farm to aquire 2 pitchers. We could easily make one of these 2-3 spec for proven young pitcher deals and sign a pitcher in free agency to a 2 year deal something similar to what the Nats did this offseason in trading for Gonzalez and then signing E Jackson. Theres lots of midtier pitchers you can prolly get in free agency this year that will only cost you a 1-2 year term deal and wont have to break the bank (McCarthy, Blanton, Lohse etc) or you could even make a run at Marcum.

DH isnt a big deal. Our offense is good enough we could prolly stick someone like Cooper or some other marginal hitter and it wouldnt matter.
Exactly. Absolute max - we have to give up 2 of D'Arnaud/Lansing trio + some project type players. For the right player, that deal could definitely be worth it.

It would still leave us with a better pool that half the teams in the league.

Regarding DH - I agree somewhat with your point. If Bautista, Lawrie, EE, Rasmus continue to play this well, we can put an average/slightly below average hitter in there and still be good enough. I do have some hope left for Lind though.

I feel the debate here is mainly about seeing how far the team is from winning, and not about Rogers being cheap/etc. Some here are willing to be patient becaue they feel the team is far away from winning, but some here, like me, feel we are pretty close to contention, and need to make a couple moves to turn it into a reality.


Last edited by Chandrashekhar Limit: 08-02-2012 at 02:54 PM.
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Old
08-02-2012, 02:49 PM
  #1134
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If you guys are so upset with AA then just stop being fans because he isn't going anywhere. Then you'll come crawling back when in 2013 (like Joe Sheehan just predicted) Jays make the playoffs
I guess Astros fans should just stop supporting their team too because of how frustrated they are with them right? Didn't know being a fanboy is a qualification to be a Jay's fan.

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08-02-2012, 02:51 PM
  #1135
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How do you know these guys will be any good. What if Marsnick is another Snider and the big 3 are more like Litsch, Drabek and Mcgowan.
That's the risk everyone takes with prospects Ryno. I trust our pro scouts/mgnt to make the right decision of which ones to trade and which ones to develop.

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08-02-2012, 02:52 PM
  #1136
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Sure its easy to say yes they will spend money but how do you know they will? Cause they say so??? Hell I will tell you Adam Lind is a gold glove 1st baseman but just because I say it doesn't mean its true.
I don't know what they will do and neither do you. However, they have shown that they will spend money to retain good players.

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08-02-2012, 02:56 PM
  #1137
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Did Morrow die or something?
The same 28 year old Brandon Morrow who has yet to pitch 200 innings in a season and holds an ERA over 4.50 and a WHIP of 1.35 since joining the Jays?

Like I've already said, I'm optimistic about the start he had this season but it's not enough to overlook what he's done in the past yet.

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08-02-2012, 02:57 PM
  #1138
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Ya Happ does. I should have been more specific then and said aquire a good proven pitcher. Happ is basically junk and is like a #5 starter at best in this division and ballpark.

Im also confused. Just a few days ago when there were rumours of the Jays trying to aquire Garza and having watched a side session of his you were saying that Garza would be a quality aqusition but now your going on about people stupid for being interested in someone at the deadline with no term past 2013.
It all comes down to price, I would of been alright with Garza but some people want him at all costs which isnt good organizationally to make moves that way. To quickly go back to the Happ point. That is proof there that AA was willing to pay a steep price to get a quality starting arm, he paid for a player controllable through 2014. I pointed out how our scouting staff is always looking for players on the upswing, well Happ fits that mold. His arm strength has increased over the last 3 years to the point that he is now consistently sitting at 90-92mph, his K/9 has gone from 7.2 in 2010 to 7.7 in 2011 to now 8.3 and his WHIP has improved in Houston over the last 3 years, he might not be a front of the rotation guy but we look to have acquired a solid bottom rotation guy with good stuff.

I think we will see another move like this done in the off season in addition to another great stuff pen arm and possibly another bat and if we can get those 3 things I think its pretty reasonable to expect us to push for a playoff spot in 2013. This season was always about answering long term questions with Lawrie, Rasmus, Morrow, Arencibia and 1B. With what we have seen this year we have definite answers to all those questions.

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08-02-2012, 03:00 PM
  #1139
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That's the risk everyone takes with prospects Ryno. I trust our pro scouts/mgnt to make the right decision of which ones to trade and which ones to develop.
agreed but if you have a chance to acquire a solid #1/2 guy who has a proven track record say David Price outprices (haha) himself in Tampa but you would have to give up D'Arnaud, Gose, Nicolin for him would you do that?

I would every day we do not know if any of those 3 will turn into MLB premium players and if they do so be it that is a good baseball trade for both teams.

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08-02-2012, 03:01 PM
  #1140
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Originally Posted by Chandrashekhar Limit View Post

I think it would be extremely short sighted to write off Romero based on one bad season. He has given us 3 years of excellent pitching, and seems like a guy who's a club house leader. I don't see any reason why he wouldn't rebound to his '10 form at the very least.
I count 2 excellent seasons and, like I said, I'm not writing him off. I'm simply saying he'd need more help than one good pitcher because he isn't looking like an ace in the true sense of the word.

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08-02-2012, 03:06 PM
  #1141
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The same 28 year old Brandon Morrow who has yet to pitch 200 innings in a season and holds an ERA over 4.50 and a WHIP of 1.35 since joining the Jays?

Like I've already said, I'm optimistic about the start he had this season but it's not enough to overlook what he's done in the past yet.
Ya the same guy they signed in the offseason to a 3 year 20 million dollar deal. To me this sounds like a guy that the front office considers a "core piece". How was Brett Lawrie any more of a core piece when he didnt even have 45 games under his belt coming into this season.

Morrow is certainly a core piece. Stop being silly.

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08-02-2012, 03:06 PM
  #1142
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Romero is 0-7 in his last 7 seven starts say he went 5-2 instead which is his norm for the type of pitcher he is the Jays record would be right there with Oakland tied for the WC lead.

Thing with baseball you never know when you will contend and when you do you can make moves to try and go for it (yes not gut the farm)

Building a contender year after year is done mostly with high payroll teams such as the yanks, sox, rangers, angels, tigers. You can get lucky like Tampa but you see now they are starting to come back to the pack as salaries go up and unable to retain players.

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08-02-2012, 03:07 PM
  #1143
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agreed but if you have a chance to acquire a solid #1/2 guy who has a proven track record say David Price outprices (haha) himself in Tampa but you would have to give up D'Arnaud, Gose, Nicolin for him would you do that?

I would every day we do not know if any of those 3 will turn into MLB premium players and if they do so be it that is a good baseball trade for both teams.
I know you were just speculating, but I sincerely doubt any trades happen within the division. Other than that one aspect I don't think anyone is saying that trading 2/3 top prospects for a legitimate top of the rotation pitcher is a bad idea. It just has to be the 'right' fit.

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08-02-2012, 03:07 PM
  #1144
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My questions are simply this. Why is it that because you don't see the rebuild the same as others that you need to post insults. Is your argument so weak that that is the only way you can attempt to enforce your point? You post your beliefs as facts on a regular basis. Because the gm of your favourite hockey team has lied to you for the duration of his term and hasn't done anything in the off season to improve one of the worst teams in hockey shouldn't be taken out on the team that is actually rebuilding properly.
If my argument is so weak then please answer it, are you willing to wait for our A ball level prospects before rogers get serious? So do we just waste Bau, EE, Morrow(contract ends in 2016) and Romero (same as Morrow) so we can wait for this guys? This is why were going to be a .500 team forever, our current rotation even if healthy is not going to put us deep in the PO, will you really be oppose to signing or trading for 1 or 2 big time pitchers to help us NOW that we still have Bautista playing like an elite slugger? Also this is a sports forum insults will be posted, I recall some of the regular posters here calling others bandwaggoners for being upset of AA, sorry if I pissed you off because of it but like I said this is a sports forum.

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08-02-2012, 03:07 PM
  #1145
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It all comes down to price, I would of been alright with Garza but some people want him at all costs which isnt good organizationally to make moves that way. To quickly go back to the Happ point. That is proof there that AA was willing to pay a steep price to get a quality starting arm, he paid for a player controllable through 2014. I pointed out how our scouting staff is always looking for players on the upswing, well Happ fits that mold. His arm strength has increased over the last 3 years to the point that he is now consistently sitting at 90-92mph, his K/9 has gone from 7.2 in 2010 to 7.7 in 2011 to now 8.3 and his WHIP has improved in Houston over the last 3 years, he might not be a front of the rotation guy but we look to have acquired a solid bottom rotation guy with good stuff.

I think we will see another move like this done in the off season in addition to another great stuff pen arm and possibly another bat and if we can get those 3 things I think its pretty reasonable to expect us to push for a playoff spot in 2013. This season was always about answering long term questions with Lawrie, Rasmus, Morrow, Arencibia and 1B. With what we have seen this year we have definite answers to all those questions.
This is actually what you said........

"So now with Chicago, Detroit, Anaheim and Pittsburgh having addressed their pitching needs we now have less competition going after Garza, Johnson and Shields"

Im just confused how you can go from that to today calling out people who wanted to aquire someone at the deadline who didnt have term past 2013.

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08-02-2012, 03:12 PM
  #1146
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This is actually what you said........

"So now with Chicago, Detroit, Anaheim and Pittsburgh having addressed their pitching needs we now have less competition going after Garza, Johnson and Shields"

Im just confused how you can go from that to today calling out people who wanted to aquire someone at the deadline who didnt have term past 2013.
Its the whole "whatever it takes" attitude that drives me nuts. Anyone who thinks we should part with our top 2 or 3 prospects for players like that.

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08-02-2012, 03:40 PM
  #1147
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Ya the same guy they signed in the offseason to a 3 year 20 million dollar deal. To me this sounds like a guy that the front office considers a "core piece". How was Brett Lawrie any more of a core piece when he didnt even have 45 games under his belt coming into this season.

Morrow is certainly a core piece. Stop being silly.
We're arguing semantics (though removing Lawrie would help my cause ).

My point is we had very few "sure thing" players going into the year and needed this season to see what we had.

With the emergence of several players, we're definitely approaching the point where a big deal can/will be made, however this season wasn't the season.

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08-02-2012, 03:40 PM
  #1148
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Romero is 0-7 in his last 7 seven starts say he went 5-2 instead which is his norm for the type of pitcher he is the Jays record would be right there with Oakland tied for the WC lead.

Thing with baseball you never know when you will contend and when you do you can make moves to try and go for it (yes not gut the farm)

Building a contender year after year is done mostly with high payroll teams such as the yanks, sox, rangers, angels, tigers. You can get lucky like Tampa but you see now they are starting to come back to the pack as salaries go up and unable to retain players.
Ricky had 3 good starts in that span. If he went 5-2, our offense would've had to be godly for that to happen.

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08-02-2012, 03:50 PM
  #1149
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So I think the easiest way to settle the prospect vs FA/trade/spend money route is to look at the club now. I am taking a 3 year window which brings Jose and EE to middle 30's

What holes does this team have and who in the minors is coming up to take his place and are they marginal MLB players or prime prospects who will make a difference. If not then how do you fill those holes?? Trades and FA.

EE 1B - solid for the next 3 years
Johnson 2B - hole to be filled in my opinion - no prospects in the minors
Escobar SS - Hech chose one and no I don't think moving to 2B is good
Lawrie - 3B - position filled until wanting a 7 year deal haha
Bautista - OF - filled
Rasmus - OF - filled
Davis/Gose - Davis is a hole while Gose could pan out- still question marks
Romero, Morrow, Alvarez - all 3 should be ok
Laffey, Villneuva, Cecil - all holes not good enough long term on a winner
Drabek, McGowan - no clue on their long term success
Santos - who knows what you have their
Jansenn - still good
Lincoln - Who knows but will say yes
Oliver - 1 year left may retire
Luis Perez - could be a new Oliver but who knows
Frasor - could be replaced

So where do the prospects fit in? Will they all pan out.

So to me the window is open now and why not make a push who is AA waiting for in the minors that he didn't make a push earlier in the season, at the deadline or what does he do in the offseason.
When did 32 become mid-thirties? Pretty sure that is *early 30's, you know... when you are still in your prime.

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08-02-2012, 04:05 PM
  #1150
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How is this thread suddenly one of the most active on HFboards? Too many haters/bandwagoners coming out of the woodwork...if you weren't here in March then you shouldn't be here in August...

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