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The Luongo Thread: We're doing 65, so we should be there in a billion years...

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Old
08-06-2012, 08:54 PM
  #326
I in the Eye
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
And a young top 4 d-man and a replacement in goal.

Bertuzzi was traded after having 71 points in 82 games, 60 in 69 the year before that and 97 (46 goals) the year before that.

Acquiring players with Bertuzzi's characteristics is tough, especially when theyve already reached their potential.

It's not our fault Florida traded him for a dud. Just like its not our fault they waived Grabner.

They got a plenty good package for Luongo the first time, just didn't have management in place to actually piece together a good team.
Also, I think Florida could have received much more, if Luongo was properly "sold"... like Gillis is doing now... I remember reading that some GM's were furious, because they didn't even know that Luongo was available...

Bottomline for me... Canucks are in "win cup now" mode... Nothing else really matters (from reports, I understand that Gillis was even prepared to exchange four 1st round draft picks for 1 year of Weber - obviously, with the goal to sign long term once here, but still, four 1st round draft picks is significant when balancing the present with the future)... Until it is determined that not having Luongo on this team is better to help the Canucks "win cup now", then IMO, Luongo has a spot on this team to help the Canucks "win cup now"... There is no question, IMO, that Luongo can help Vancouver "win cup now"... No cap space needed, as of today... No Luongo distraction, as of today... So, until it becomes a problem (and if it becomes a problem), and until having Luongo on this team is bringing diminishing returns, then keep Luongo - unless a team, through their offer, convinces Gillis that he shouldn't keep Luongo on this team to help Vancouver "win cup now"...

How the Canucks are dealing with this doesn't seem to lessen the Canucks chances to get Doan (short list of 4?)... How the Canucks dealt with Raymond didn't seem to lessen the Canucks chances to get Garrison (Raymond's good friend... Hell, Raymond apparently had great things to say about the Canucks)... It's a business... I think all the players, and even Luongo, can appreciate that Gillis wants to "win cup now"...

Isn't that what we all want? I don't really care if Gillis' asking price is too high... I don't really care if Gillis' asking price is so high that it makes Luongo untradeable, at the moment... I don't think I need to lower my expectations (as Dado suggests)... My expectation is to "win cup now"... My expectation isn't to trade Luongo... If my expectation was to trade Luongo, then as of today, I agree that I would need to lower the asking price... IMHO, teams need much more pressure before Luongo will return in the vacinity what Gilli allegedly wants... Around Christmas, IMO, is the perfect time to trade Luongo - in terms of squeezing value out of him... Also, it's the time when Kesler should be back from LTIR...

From where I sit, having two outstanding goaltenders, as of today, is better than having one - given the make-up of the rest of the team (just looking at the projected roster)... If it prevented Schneider from signing long term (in an alternate universe) - that would have been different... If the Canucks need the cap space for Doan (or someone else), that's different...

I don't dump Luongo for anything less than a great return, today... If that prevents Toronto from getting him today, IMHO, tough... If that prevents Florida from getting him today, IMHO, tough... Maybe tomorrow, if what the tide brings in tomorrow results in the Canucks being closer to "win cup now" than having Luongo... If I'm Gillis, I ride this as long as I can... I keep all the star players I can, together, for as long as I can... You don't just let star players go, when you don't have to...

The end game isn't to trade Luongo... The end game is to "win cup now"... Maybe one day, the end game is to trade Luongo - because having Luongo on this team is no longer more beneficial than sending him away... If that day comes, then IMO, lower the price... If that day never comes, then my vote is to keep the best team possible to "win cup now"...

If I'm Gillis, I don't trade Luongo in anticipation of having a better team without him... I trade Luongo after having a better team without him... especially if I'm dumping him for a return not even close to what he brings to the team...

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08-06-2012, 09:00 PM
  #327
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
We got him for, basically, a past-expiration Bertuzzi.

He's worth less now than he was then.

Seems to me our expectations are simply too high...
Bertuzzi had 131 points in 151 games in the 2 seasons prior to being traded (71 point average seasons...) and was 30.

That would be like getting Patrick Sharp now for Luongo.

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08-06-2012, 09:07 PM
  #328
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He was also 40+ points off the scoring lead for his position, had a horrific plus/minus, and was routinely criticized right here on this very board for being a lazy, non-caring, floating SOB. Not to mention 4 years older than the player he was swapped for.

Didn't pay much attention to Sharpe this past season - but if he fits that mold and is over 35, I suppose it's a decent comparison.

 
Old
08-06-2012, 09:23 PM
  #329
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luongo got a terrible return. We robbed them blind and now people are trying to justify what we gave up something of value?

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08-06-2012, 09:40 PM
  #330
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Originally Posted by I in the Eye View Post

The end game isn't to trade Luongo... The end game is to "win cup now"... Maybe one day, the end game is to trade Luongo - because having Luongo on this team is no longer more beneficial than sending him away... If that day comes, then IMO, lower the price... If that day never comes, then my vote is to keep the best team possible to "win cup now"...
agree 100% - very good post

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08-06-2012, 09:43 PM
  #331
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
That was before Luongo Meets The Playoff Demons.

Given we're having trouble getting a bag of wet donkey **** for the guy, it's safe to say Keenan's "mistake" is under review, if not already overturned.
Yes, in this hypothetical scenario, given we can't get wet donkey ****, we can safely assume what you have assumed. But, this is such an absurd hypothetical scenario, and it certainly doesn't have any basis in fact, so why should we even hypothesize?

All we know for fact is that a Luongo trade hasn't occured. We are fairly certain Gillis is considering trading Luongo. We also have a good indication that Gillis would sooner trade Luongo than Schneider. The rest is heresay and/or nonsense. But I guess that's what you absorb by listening to other fanbases spout off their wisdom.

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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
Wait a second. The guy above you says we totally ripped them off, but you're saying they got a "good package" for him.

Which one is it?

It's not an either/or situation. It WAS a significant package they got for Luongo, yet it was STILL a rip-off, because we got one of the best goalies in the league.

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08-06-2012, 09:51 PM
  #332
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Dado, pretty sure gillis already turned down wet donkey **** for lu.

Got anymore dramatic statements?

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Old
08-06-2012, 09:59 PM
  #333
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The package Florida got should have helped them build a better 'team' it didn't, our team improved so clearly it looks like we won.

Florida trades Bertuzzi after playing 7 games in Florida (conveniently as a ppg player), is that our fault?

Bryan Allen was a 4th overall pick (just like Bobby Lu).

Alex Auld was pencilled to be our goalie of the future (he wasn't afforded the same system, management, or players Luongo has had, but was still an NHL caliber goalie.

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08-06-2012, 10:28 PM
  #334
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
The package Florida got should have helped them build a better 'team' it didn't, our team improved so clearly it looks like we won.

Florida trades Bertuzzi after playing 7 games in Florida (conveniently as a ppg player), is that our fault?

Bryan Allen was a 4th overall pick (just like Bobby Lu).

Alex Auld was pencilled to be our goalie of the future (he wasn't afforded the same system, management, or players Luongo has had, but was still an NHL caliber goalie.
Is this what you told yourself when we got Luongo? Were you acting the same way when the trade was announced?

I was jumping for joy.

I knew we traded a passed his prime forward. A top 4 defenceman with an injury history. And a back up goalie.

We got in return a franchise/elite goalie, a top 6 defenceman(which had offensive upside.)

There's no way you can say it was a fair trade or remotely close.

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08-06-2012, 10:43 PM
  #335
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Originally Posted by Figz14 View Post
Is this what you told yourself when we got Luongo? Were you acting the same way when the trade was announced?

I was jumping for joy.

I knew we traded a passed his prime forward. A top 4 defenceman with an injury history. And a back up goalie.

We got in return a franchise/elite goalie, a top 6 defenceman(which had offensive upside.)

There's no way you can say it was a fair trade or remotely close.
Bertuzzi was hardly a past-prime forward, as his previous couple years statistics indicate, he just had gone through a hell of a lot with the Steve Moore incident, and his time in a Canucks jersey was pretty clearly at an end.

Allen was a very solid defensemen, who was still young, and Auld was obviously just Auld.

Steal? sure; but hardly the deal of the century people were hailing it. In terms of the trade's impact on each teams future performance, however, it has to be looked as one of the most lopsided ever.

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08-06-2012, 11:21 PM
  #336
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
The package Florida got should have helped them build a better 'team' it didn't, our team improved so clearly it looks like we won.

Florida trades Bertuzzi after playing 7 games in Florida (conveniently as a ppg player), is that our fault?

Bryan Allen was a 4th overall pick (just like Bobby Lu).

Alex Auld was pencilled to be our goalie of the future (he wasn't afforded the same system, management, or players Luongo has had, but was still an NHL caliber goalie.
Yup, it was a good package. At the time Bertuzzi was one of the league's top power-forwards, if not the best. Basically Rick Nash now equals Bertuzzi then.

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Is this what you told yourself when we got Luongo? Were you acting the same way when the trade was announced?
...
There's no way you can say it was a fair trade or remotely close.
Don't forget that at the time Luongo was only signed for one more year. At the time, I thought that if Nonis could extend Luongo, it was a good deal, but that if Lu walked as a free agent, then it would prove a very bad one.

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08-06-2012, 11:28 PM
  #337
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Bertuzzi was still a very valuable player in 2006 and so was Bryan Allen, so we didn't exactly give them 3 pieces of trash.

It's not out problem they traded Bertuzzi to Detroit a few months later.

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08-06-2012, 11:54 PM
  #338
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So we won the Luongo deal, they won the Ballard deal.. Who wins the Booth deal? and will it be a tiebreaker with the Lu 2.0 deal?

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08-07-2012, 12:00 AM
  #339
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Originally Posted by icebank_miceelf View Post
Bertuzzi was hardly a past-prime forward, as his previous couple years statistics indicate, he just had gone through a hell of a lot with the Steve Moore incident, and his time in a Canucks jersey was pretty clearly at an end.

Allen was a very solid defensemen, who was still young, and Auld was obviously just Auld.

Steal? sure; but hardly the deal of the century people were hailing it. In terms of the trade's impact on each teams future performance, however, it has to be looked as one of the most lopsided ever.
I think that incident took a toll on him to play his game. And it pretty much just ruined his performance. How do you get from ppg to ~.5 in one season?

I don't like saying this about Bert cause he was the reason why I started watching hockey, but his career took a nose dive.

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Yup, it was a good package. At the time Bertuzzi was one of the league's top power-forwards, if not the best. Basically Rick Nash now equals Bertuzzi then.



Don't forget that at the time Luongo was only signed for one more year. At the time, I thought that if Nonis could extend Luongo, it was a good deal, but that if Lu walked as a free agent, then it would prove a very bad one.
Bertuzzi had too many demons to have much value.

And I was aware of his contract situation. I wasn't worried at all bout re-signing him. He also had probably one of the best statistical years in his career the season before.

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Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
Bertuzzi was still a very valuable player in 2006 and so was Bryan Allen, so we didn't exactly give them 3 pieces of trash.

It's not our problem they traded Bertuzzi to Detroit a few months later.
I never said trash though(probably not directed at me, but still.) I'm aware they were valuable pieces, but no where near the value Luongo held at the time of the trade.

A young 26yo franchise goaltender that posted up career numbers.


I think we robbed them. Even more so when you take into consideration how it played out.

I'm surprised I'm the only one that thinks this too. Gotta dig up the thread and see peoples responses when the trade occurred.

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Old
08-07-2012, 12:17 AM
  #340
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by far the biggest priority for present and future is to maximize the retun on your greatest trading chip.
Okay, but define "maximize". Is Luongo sitting on the bench in the playoffs "maximizing" the return? If things go as planned, Luongo wouldn't see a minute of icetime in the playoffs. How is that maximizing the return on our greatest trading chip?

It is important to maximize the return, but sometimes the maximum return isn't what you hoped.

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'guaranteed a distraction' is speculation, as is 'colossal fail.'
We are still a strong favorite for a division win, at least
How is it not a guaranteed distraction? And I mean that literally. The radio talk, the Internet talk, the post game interviews will always be about the Luongo situation. That isn't saying the distraction necessarily leads to the Canucks' game plummeting, but why take that chance?

Quote:
If Luongo wants out more desperately then he can expand his list of teams.
What's he going to do otherwise, sit out? Come to the room and pout?
What evidence has there been of any kind indicating that that's the way these two guys have or would continue (for the short-mid term) to co-exist?
I just don't get this. Luongo has been nothing but class, one of our all-time best players, great in the community etc and you feel Gillis should completely disrespect him. I don't think Luongo would pout or be a distraction (Luongo does not equal the Luongo situation). But put it this way, if your boss came to you and said you were going to be transferred to a competing firm at some point in the next 6 months -- don't know when or where, but eventually -- how dedicated are you going to be to that company for those six months?

That's not saying I think Luongo would be have anything short of professional. But it's inevitable human nature...being a professional athlete requires such a high degree of focus and dedication that knowing you were a lame duck would have to affect your game to some degree, no matter how hard you tried to prevent it.

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The only real issue I see with waiting (and don't believe this has been discussed), is that teams start to fill up their cap space and solidify their rosters, so it may be increasingly difficult to accomodate a caphit like Luo's. Or, more likely that we will have to take cap back in a deal...
Generally I agree, but there's so much extra cap room around this year that I don't think it would be too hard to move some salary around. If there were more goalies available, I'd agree more, but the market seems somewhat set and won't change much (except Doan) until training camp probably.


Quote:
PS, one more note -- what was said to Schneider at the time of signing is only speculation by all -- but that was his leverage time, when he was deciding to sign or not to sign. Unless there's some kind of "No-Luo" clause in his contract we are all unaware of, then Gillis is holding the cards still, and Cory may not be thrilled for the short term, but he's a professional, and now quite rich.
Thing is, it's fully possible (I'd say probable) that Gillis let the Schneider camp know that Luongo would be out of the picture. I'd also speculate that Luongo himself has let Schneider know he'll be moving on (reading between the lines, full speculation on my part). If Gillis did give Schneider his word, going back on it can do more damage than good.

That's the thing when talking "maximum return", it's a difficult equation to balance. How Gillis handles the Luongo situation will be fresh in the minds of next year's UFA crop. And when our next wave of prospects starts getting their second and third contracts, how Gillis treated Luongo could very well have an impact on the type of contract they're willing to sign. Stringing along Luongo and treating him disrespectfully in order to gain a bit more value could end up costing you down the road.

Gillis has been working hard to cultivate an environment players want to come to and are willing to take less $$$ to do so. Stringing Luongo along until Christmas would undo a lot of that work imo.

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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
We've seen this galvanize teams before, the cloud of distraction CAN allow teams to come together. I highly doubt the room will be divided if they both return, that sounds like Tony Gallagheresque speculation to me.

We know regardless of what happens, the media will create distractions anyways.

Trading Luongo for peanuts will increase it more than softening it.
I never said the room would be divided. I don't think anyone else has either. It's possible, always is, but having had both on the team for a while I don't think it would happen.

Imagine a tough win over Chicago and Hank having to answer questions on "what if" Luongo got traded to Chicago. And this would be the case after EVERY game. All season there would be this waiting for the other shoe to drop. It's just inconceivable to me that Gillis would have an elephant as large as the Luongo situation hanging over the team out of the gates.

And I don't think the offers that are already out there would be for peanuts. No one knows for sure, but I think it's more a case of Gillis trying to wait for fillet mignon than not being willing to settle for peanuts.


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Saying Luongo will be a lockerroom distraction if he's still here is just plain stupid. On what are people basing this belief on? All you have to do is look back to 2010 where, in his own building, Luongo was NOT named team Canada's number 1 from the beginning of the Olympic tournament. If Luongo's attitude was as bad as some people are saying, he would have pouted and you definitely wouldn't have seen him put in later on in the tournament. Instead, he remained professional about it, and capitalized on the opportunity that he was given.
No one's saying Luongo the hockey player would be a locker room distraction. What I'm saying is the Luongo situation would be a non-stop topic with the local media, local fan base, and would be the story every time they played on the road. That can't help be a distraction to the team, especially if and when the teams slumping. Anyone that thinks having Luongo on the roster would be a non-issue if Schneider has a couple poor outings, or the team loses three in a row, isn't thinking clearly.

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08-07-2012, 12:18 AM
  #341
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He was also 40+ points off the scoring lead for his position, had a horrific plus/minus, and was routinely criticized right here on this very board for being a lazy, non-caring, floating SOB. Not to mention 4 years older than the player he was swapped for.

Didn't pay much attention to Sharpe this past season - but if he fits that mold and is over 35, I suppose it's a decent comparison.
I agree that Bertuzzi was awful in his last two years, but this is a ridiculous thing to point at as a reason why he was bad.

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08-07-2012, 12:20 AM
  #342
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So we won the Luongo deal, they won the Ballard deal.. Who wins the Booth deal? and will it be a tiebreaker with the Lu 2.0 deal?
What did they actually get out of the Ballard deal, though. They didn't get anything out of Grabner, they got Steve Bernier.... who did the 1st rounder turn out to be?

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08-07-2012, 12:21 AM
  #343
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What did they actually get out of the Ballard deal, though. They didn't get anything out of Grabner, they got Steve Bernier.... who did the 1st rounder turn out to be?
Quinton Howden.

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08-07-2012, 12:36 AM
  #344
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So we won the Luongo deal, they won the Ballard deal.. Who wins the Booth deal? and will it be a tiebreaker with the Lu 2.0 deal?
They won the Booth deal just by dumping him.

Still can't believe we have that simpleton on our roster

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08-07-2012, 01:19 AM
  #345
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They won the Booth deal just by dumping him.

Still can't believe we have that simpleton on our roster
This is funny. Did you know that per advanced stats a very real argument could be made that Booth is a 1st line player? Canucksarmy posted an article about it during the season. Maybe give it a read?


If MG could pull off a few more deals like this. Much like Ehrhoff. This team will be in very good shape for a long time.

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08-07-2012, 01:48 AM
  #346
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This is funny. Did you know that per advanced stats a very real argument could be made that Booth is a 1st line player? Canucksarmy posted an article about it during the season. Maybe give it a read?
And risk losing the blind hate due to a hunting picture? Better not risk it.

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08-07-2012, 02:01 AM
  #347
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They won the Booth deal just by dumping him.

Still can't believe we have that simpleton on our roster
Are you for real??

When booth pots 25-30 this year you'll be wearing his T-Shirt.

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08-07-2012, 02:02 AM
  #348
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This is funny. Did you know that per advanced stats a very real argument could be made that Booth is a 1st line player? Canucksarmy posted an article about it during the season. Maybe give it a read?


If MG could pull off a few more deals like this. Much like Ehrhoff. This team will be in very good shape for a long time.
Oh yay advanced stats lol.

Did you know that by on ice play that actually matters a team with David Booth on the first line will never win anything?

There is no advanced stat to measure how incredibly low his hockey IQ is, how his head is always down, can't pass, and didn't provide any offence over the last 20 games he played last year.

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08-07-2012, 02:03 AM
  #349
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Let's try this another way: would you, as a fan, be fine with Luongo never being traded and retiring a Canuck, not because he necessaily wins back the starting job, but because potentially no team will surrender the assets Gillis seeks? And, furthermore, if Luongo remains, how do you think that affects Schneider's willingness to re-sign three summers from now? Keep in mind that I am not attacking you or your team with these questions, but just trying to get some insight.
Schneider resigning 3 years from now might be a non-issue. The Canucks have more depth in goal than any other NHL team, both at the NHL and AHL levels. In 3 yrs, Lack might have taken Schneiders job. Lol. I am being honest here. If Schneider truly had an issue, as an RFA this summer he wouldn't have signed a contract till Lu was moved. And his agent woudln't have said 'there's a good chance we see both in net next yr".

For the last 2 yrs, the Cdn media (mainly Toronto based outlets) were trying to label the Luongo/Schneider combo as a 'goalie controversy'. Not sure how winning a Jennings and coming within 1 game of the cup is labeled 'controversial'. Likely cause their local NHL teams have a 'controversy' on the exact opposite end of the spectrum.

As some have already said, having 2 great goalies is never a bad thing - especially in the more competitive Western conference. If Gillis thinks Luongos better off on the team then traded for a package he doesn't like, then so be it. No complaints here.


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08-07-2012, 02:33 AM
  #350
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Oh yay advanced stats lol.

Did you know that by on ice play that actually matters a team with David Booth on the first line will never win anything?

There is no advanced stat to measure how incredibly low his hockey IQ is, how his head is always down, can't pass, and didn't provide any offence over the last 20 games he played last year.
You need to atleast give him another year or half year before completely dismissing the bible thumper. He showed a lot of elements that we are missing on the team with his net driving but his 2way play and board work can def be improved.

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