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Old
08-07-2012, 12:21 PM
  #276
Teufelsdreck
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Actually it does.

Gainey rarely negotiated with UFAs during the season. He ended up reacting to what the UFAs wanted in June/July. It's better for GMs to decide in February if they want to keep those players long-term.

For example, with Sheldon Sourray, Gainey offered him a contract in June and then learned that he didn't want to come back, in June. Had he offered the contract in February, he would have learned Sourray didn't want to come back in February, and then gotten a gold mine, and then still would have been able to get Roman Hamrlik.

If you have an impending UFA who is valuable, you should decide if you wan t to kleep him in February. Gauthier did this last year. He didn't want to keep Kostitsyn and Gill long-term, that's fine, so he traded them.
The situation with Souray was ticklish. I think Gainey didn't want to re-sign him but the Habs were in a precarious situation about making the the playoffs. He seemed to feel that the Habs didn't have much chance of getting in if he didn't have Souray, so he gambled--and lost. The Habs were eliminated on the final weekend of the season. Gauthier and Gainey had different mental outlooks and should not have been lumped together in the eyes of fans.

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08-07-2012, 06:32 PM
  #277
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Can anyone name 30 defenseman better than Subban?

Further, he is at worst a 1st pairing dman who isn't a no. 1 dman. Can anyone name 60 defenseman better than Subban?

No.
I went through NHL.com's list of top 50 TOI/G defencemen (i.e. guys who were played like #1s), and I can't find 15 I think are clearly better than PK at the moment.

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08-07-2012, 07:12 PM
  #278
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Originally Posted by Dekar View Post
I went through NHL.com's list of top 50 TOI/G defencemen (i.e. guys who were played like #1s), and I can't find 15 I think are clearly better than PK at the moment.
I see it as :

Clearly better than Subban at this point during last season.

Duncan Keith
Ryan Suter
Dan Girardi
Shea Weber
Dan Boyle
Erik Karlsson
Dion Phaneuf (could be debatable)
Zdeno Chara
Drew Doughty
Kris Letang
Alex Pietrangelo
Brent Seabrook
Alexander Edler
Nicklas Lidstrom (I know he's retire)
Kevin Bieksa
Dan Hamhuis
Mark Streit
Niklas Kronwall
Tyler Myers
Keith Yandle
Kimmo Timonen
Marc Staal (I know he has been hurt most of the time still I think he deserve to be there)

Debatable :

Brian Campbell
Jay Bouwmeester
Ryan McDonagh
Tobias Enstrom
Dustin Byfuglien
Dennis Seidenberg
Jack Johnson
Joni Pitkanen
Dmitry Kulikov
Marc-Edouard Vlasic
Victor Hedman
Andrei Markov (always tough to judge)
Brent Burns


I maybe forgot some...
I got with what a guy bring all around.

Thought ?

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Old
08-08-2012, 03:20 AM
  #279
Estimated_Prophet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forsead View Post
I see it as :

Clearly better than Subban at this point during last season.

Duncan Keith
Ryan Suter
Dan Girardi
Shea Weber
Dan Boyle
Erik Karlsson
Dion Phaneuf (could be debatable)
Zdeno Chara
Drew Doughty
Kris Letang
Alex Pietrangelo
Brent Seabrook
Alexander Edler
Nicklas Lidstrom (I know he's retire)
Kevin Bieksa
Dan Hamhuis
Mark Streit
Niklas Kronwall
Tyler Myers
Keith Yandle
Kimmo Timonen
Marc Staal (I know he has been hurt most of the time still I think he deserve to be there)

Debatable :

Brian Campbell
Jay Bouwmeester
Ryan McDonagh
Tobias Enstrom
Dustin Byfuglien
Dennis Seidenberg
Jack Johnson
Joni Pitkanen
Dmitry Kulikov
Marc-Edouard Vlasic
Victor Hedman
Andrei Markov (always tough to judge)
Brent Burns


I maybe forgot some...
I got with what a guy bring all around.

Thought ?
Subban was better than Phaneuf, Myers, Streit, Staal, Yandle and Timmonen last season and you have them listed as being clearly better.

Yandle annoys me because he is an absolute cream puff and I would take O.E Larsson over him any day of the week. Not sure how you could put Staal ahead of McDonagh either?

Byfuglien should be in the first group as he is far superior to Phaneuf.

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Old
08-08-2012, 03:59 AM
  #280
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forsead View Post
I see it as :

Clearly better than Subban at this point during last season.

Duncan Keith
Ryan Suter
Dan Girardi
Shea Weber
Dan Boyle
Erik Karlsson
Dion Phaneuf (could be debatable)
Zdeno Chara
Drew Doughty
Kris Letang
Alex Pietrangelo
Brent Seabrook
Alexander Edler
Nicklas Lidstrom (I know he's retire)
Kevin Bieksa
Dan Hamhuis
Mark Streit
Niklas Kronwall
Tyler Myers
Keith Yandle
Kimmo Timonen
Marc Staal (I know he has been hurt most of the time still I think he deserve to be there)

Debatable :

Brian Campbell
Jay Bouwmeester
Ryan McDonagh
Tobias Enstrom
Dustin Byfuglien
Dennis Seidenberg
Jack Johnson
Joni Pitkanen
Dmitry Kulikov
Marc-Edouard Vlasic
Victor Hedman
Andrei Markov (always tough to judge)
Brent Burns


I maybe forgot some...
I got with what a guy bring all around.

Thought ?
McDonagh. Rock solid defense, big minutes against top lines and consistently NY's best D through the regular season and the playoffs. Also 32 points, mostly ES as he was only on the PP for 51 minutes during the season. No knock on Girardi or Staal, but Mac Truck is special and should be on anyone's "top" list.

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Old
08-08-2012, 08:17 AM
  #281
Tim Wallach
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forsead View Post
I see it as :

Clearly better than Subban at this point during last season.

Duncan Keith
Ryan Suter
Dan Girardi
Shea Weber
Dan Boyle
Erik Karlsson
Dion Phaneuf (could be debatable)
Zdeno Chara
Drew Doughty
Kris Letang
Alex Pietrangelo
Brent Seabrook
Alexander Edler
Nicklas Lidstrom (I know he's retire)
Kevin Bieksa
Dan Hamhuis
Mark Streit
Niklas Kronwall
Tyler Myers
Keith Yandle
Kimmo Timonen
Marc Staal (I know he has been hurt most of the time still I think he deserve to be there)

Debatable :

Brian Campbell
Jay Bouwmeester
Ryan McDonagh
Tobias Enstrom
Dustin Byfuglien
Dennis Seidenberg
Jack Johnson
Joni Pitkanen
Dmitry Kulikov
Marc-Edouard Vlasic
Victor Hedman
Andrei Markov (always tough to judge)
Brent Burns


I maybe forgot some...
I got with what a guy bring all around.

Thought ?

No offence, but I believe this to be typical of "buying the hype" from elsewhere but not in your own backyard. You watch Subban a lot and hence, see all the flaws. Believe me the ones Estimated Prophet pointed out especially have massive flaws when you watch them consistently. If Subban's positioning was as poor as Phaneuf's he'd be a whipping boy on here. And I could go on.

All I'll say is that in my opinion, you'd be very hard-pressed to find 15 guys who legitimately are more effective and hard to play against than Subban. There are no perfect D-men. Just a lot who benefit from better press.

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Old
08-08-2012, 08:34 AM
  #282
otto bond
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Subban is a legit top pairing Dman at a tender age of 23. There are many we could debate as far has who was better last year and looking at Forsead's list, I would put Streit, Phaneuf, Yandle, Myers and Staal in the debatable list .To some extant Timonen and Keith belongs in the debatable list.

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08-08-2012, 08:51 AM
  #283
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Originally Posted by otto bond View Post
Subban is a legit top pairing Dman at a tender age of 23. There are many we could debate as far has who was better last year and looking at Forsead's list, I would put Streit, Phaneuf, Yandle, Myers and Staal in the debatable list .To some extant Timonen and Keith belongs in the debatable list.
Bieksa as well, he's quite the overrated guy. Subban might also be better than a lot of these guys as he gets closer to his peak.

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08-08-2012, 09:00 AM
  #284
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forsead View Post
I see it as :

Clearly better than Subban at this point during last season.

Duncan Keith
Ryan Suter
Dan Girardi
Shea Weber
Dan Boyle
Erik Karlsson
Dion Phaneuf (could be debatable)
Zdeno Chara
Drew Doughty
Kris Letang
Alex Pietrangelo
Brent Seabrook
Alexander Edler
Nicklas Lidstrom (I know he's retire)
Kevin Bieksa
Dan Hamhuis
Mark Streit
Niklas Kronwall
Tyler Myers
Keith Yandle
Kimmo Timonen
Marc Staal (I know he has been hurt most of the time still I think he deserve to be there)

Debatable :

Brian Campbell
Jay Bouwmeester
Ryan McDonagh
Tobias Enstrom
Dustin Byfuglien
Dennis Seidenberg
Jack Johnson
Joni Pitkanen
Dmitry Kulikov
Marc-Edouard Vlasic
Victor Hedman
Andrei Markov (always tough to judge)
Brent Burns


I maybe forgot some...
I got with what a guy bring all around.

Thought ?

The problem with lists like these is that you are comparing a lot of different types of defencemen.

For example, Yandle vs Subban. Yes, Yandle is a more prolific point producer, but Subban is better defensively. Subban hits more, blocks more shots, has better positioning, and plays a better defensive game. At the same time, Subban still contributes significant points, as well. Yandle is the superior offensive talent, Subban is the superior defensive talent. So, it is not easy to judge who is truly better.

Many people will say Erik Karlsson is better. Why? He is far superior at producing points. However, Subban had more hits, more blocked shots, more time on the PK, more defensive responsibilities, etc... So, yes, if you look at Karlsson's OFFENSIVE production, he is far superior to Subban. If you look at what he can do defensively, Subban is superior to Karlsson.

Subban is difficult for people to gauge because he is not either defensive or offensive, he is an amalgamation of both. Subban is expected to play a shutdown and a point producing role. He is not a one dimensional player. On top of thatm he has intangibles that are difficult to put a Value" on, such as his ability to agitate other teams and get them to focus on him rather than on playing hockey.

If you want an idea as to how good Subban is, here is an interesting little fact:

Subban is one of ONLY 13 players who scored over 30 points, had over 100 hits, over 100 blocked shots, and played over 22:00 minutes per game. He also draws more penalties than (I think, can not find the page) all of the defencemen on the above list. There are better offensive defencemen. There are better defensive defencemen. There are not many better all around defencemen than Subban currently is.

Finally, it is not as easy as comparing where Subban is right now to a player like Chara or Suter and simply saying Subban is not close to them. Right now, that is a valid but slightly misleading statement. Why? Well, if you look at Chara and Suter's first 2 full seasons in the NHL, you can see that, compared to Subban's, they were not as far developed as Subban is at the same point in their respective careers. What that means is hard to state categorically, but it definitely shows there is significant promise that Subban can become as good as, or better, than them.

I would move Yandle, Myers, Suter, Kronwall and Hamhuis to the debatable list. I would remove Vlasic, Johnson, and Hedman from either list. Heck, after watching Doughty last season, there is a case to be made that Subban was as good as Doughty, moving hm to the debatable list, as well.

So, value debates are not easy. Suffice it to say we have one of the top 20 defencemen in the entire NHL and be happy.

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Old
08-08-2012, 09:01 AM
  #285
FlyingKostitsyn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest
Many people will say Erik Karlsson is better. Why? He is far superior at producing points. However, Subban had more hits, more blocked shots, more time on the PK, more defensive responsibilities, etc... So, yes, if you look at Karlsson's OFFENSIVE production, he is far superior to Subban. If you look at what he can do defensively, Subban is superior to Karlsson.
That wouldn't pass well on the main board...

I agree with the rest of your post however, Subban's actually underrated if thats even possible.

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Old
08-08-2012, 09:27 AM
  #286
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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
That wouldn't pass well on the main board...

I agree with the rest of your post however, Subban's actually underrated if thats even possible.
Agreed. Serious homerism to put Subban ahead of Karlsson.

Karlsson is a plus defender now as he has improved dramatically. He is not afraid and is a ridiculous skater to go along with his tremendous hockey IQ. The gap between these two on the offensive side is too huge for Subban to make up for with his physical play.

p.s. there are alot of names missing on that list like Mike Green, Kevin, Shattenkirk, Eric Johnson, John Carlsson.......I am not saying they are better but there is definitely grounds for debate on some of them.


Last edited by Estimated_Prophet: 08-08-2012 at 09:33 AM.
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Old
08-08-2012, 02:24 PM
  #287
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I just want him signed sooner than later. With another Flyer Dman going down to injury, I am starting to feel a little uncomfortable with PK unsigned.

I have little doubt we would match any offer, but it could be considerably more that was Bergiven wants to pay.

Let's get hm done!

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08-08-2012, 02:29 PM
  #288
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Here Chris Nichols of Sportsnet speculates Philly could offer sheet Subban or Carlson.
http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/2012/...ockey_hearsay/

I am not as nervous about PK signing an offer sheet, the guy was born to be a Hab and he relishes it. I could see him showing the Habs the offer sheet before he were to ever sign one but still, I hope they lock him up sooner thank later.

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08-08-2012, 02:33 PM
  #289
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Originally Posted by 11Goat11 View Post
Here Chris Nichols of Sportsnet speculates Philly could offer sheet Subban or Carlson.
http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/2012/...ockey_hearsay/

I am not as nervous about PK signing an offer sheet, the guy was born to be a Hab and he relishes it. I could see him showing the Habs the offer sheet before he were to ever sign one but still, I hope they lock him up sooner thank later.
Philly has nothing to lose. If I was Holmgren I'd be going after both Carleson and Subban and signing whoever agrees to a deal first. If the first one fails, try the second one.

Michael Del Zotto is another possibility. If I'm a GM who wants Ryan McDonagh, I force the Ranngers to pay more for Del Zotto than they otherwise would. That way, they're more vulnerable to losing McDonagh next year.

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08-08-2012, 02:53 PM
  #290
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It might have been mentionned before, but is there a limit in the amount of offer sheets the Flyers can sign during one offseason?

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08-08-2012, 02:55 PM
  #291
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It might have been mentionned before, but is there a limit in the amount of offer sheets the Flyers can sign during one offseason?
Depends on the availability of the picks.

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08-08-2012, 03:04 PM
  #292
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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
That wouldn't pass well on the main board...

I agree with the rest of your post however, Subban's actually underrated if thats even possible.
To the fans only I think. The league GMs are not as clueless.

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08-08-2012, 03:30 PM
  #293
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Putting Edler, Bieksa and Hamhuis in front of Subban is laughable. Edler is a train wreck in his own end. Hamhuis has very little offensive upside and Bieksa is so inconsistent. There's zero chance in hell any if those 3 could be traded straight up for subban. Subbans upside is way greater than any if those guys. I won't even start on Phaneuf

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Old
08-08-2012, 03:45 PM
  #294
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 11Goat11 View Post
Here Chris Nichols of Sportsnet speculates Philly could offer sheet Subban or Carlson.
http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/2012/...ockey_hearsay/

I am not as nervous about PK signing an offer sheet, the guy was born to be a Hab and he relishes it. I could see him showing the Habs the offer sheet before he were to ever sign one but still, I hope they lock him up sooner thank later.
I'd be pissed as hell if he was to sign an offer sheet elsewhere. Bergevin should just get it done and get it over with

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08-08-2012, 04:12 PM
  #295
DrunkenHabz
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No offence, but I believe this to be typical of "buying the hype" from elsewhere but not in your own backyard. You watch Subban a lot and hence, see all the flaws. Believe me the ones Estimated Prophet pointed out especially have massive flaws when you watch them consistently. If Subban's positioning was as poor as Phaneuf's he'd be a whipping boy on here. And I could go on.

All I'll say is that in my opinion, you'd be very hard-pressed to find 15 guys who legitimately are more effective and hard to play against than Subban. There are no perfect D-men. Just a lot who benefit from better press.
This this this. But I understand what the other guy means with the names he mentioned, most of his 'clearly' list includes proven established #1 denfensemen, not all (Staal, etc) but still very solid.

I'd say PK is one year off of being considered elite, if he can get into the 40-45 pts range as well as maintaining his stellar defensive positioning, while at the same time improving on his decision making and refraining his testosterone/swag at times, he'll be up there in the top 15. being around 3 full years in the NHL and signing a new high-$$$ contract might also change his status among the league. People will think of him as being more mature and deserving the title of Top defenseman.

If he can get into the All-Star game after having a somewhat quiet first half (not talking stats, but more his behavior), people will change their minds about him. It's debatable he would have gotten in the All-Star game last year if there had been less negative (and indeed exaggerated press) feedback about him in the league.

Not saying he should put the swag to rest, no hell no, I love it. But get to know when to light it up and when to keep a low profile.

Having a veteran like Markov around will hopefully help... if they are friendly. I'm still kind of afraid of the 'No comment' Markov said. Of course it can be interpreted in a number of ways.

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08-08-2012, 04:32 PM
  #296
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The longer this goes on the more nervous I get about this. I know Price waited until August to sign his last deal but I have a bad feeling about this.

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08-08-2012, 04:42 PM
  #297
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Maybe the Skinner signing will point the way to a long-term solution. They are not the same type of player, but their importance to their respective teams is comparable. Looks like the Habs will have to open the vault.

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08-08-2012, 05:16 PM
  #298
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Don't worry, he wants to remain a Hab and he'll sign. Besides, Bergevin would match any offer sheet.

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08-08-2012, 07:13 PM
  #299
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Originally Posted by VirginiaMtlExpat View Post
Maybe the Skinner signing will point the way to a long-term solution. They are not the same type of player, but their importance to their respective teams is comparable. Looks like the Habs will have to open the vault.
I'm sorry but I can't see Subban getting 4.35, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6 million just yet. He needs to establish himself a little but more, and I am confident he will do so in the near future

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08-08-2012, 08:42 PM
  #300
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I'm sorry but I can't see Subban getting 4.35, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6 million just yet. He needs to establish himself a little but more, and I am confident he will do so in the near future
Well, if he might not get up to the $6 million mark in salary for the next two seasons, don't be surprised to see $6+ for the years after that (a la Karlsson) - IF he signs a deal that covers that length of time.

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