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Why didn't Green win the Norris?

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Old
08-03-2012, 05:39 PM
  #26
brs03
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You realize Green scored 31 goals that year, right? If anything is "historically dominant"...

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08-03-2012, 05:41 PM
  #27
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Well yeah Karlsson had a sexy point stat.

But he had so many assists, which is an amazingly deceiving stat. I wonder how many were secondary.

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08-03-2012, 06:28 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by brs03 View Post
You realize Green scored 31 goals that year, right? If anything is "historically dominant"...
It was an impressive season no doubt. But what Karlsson did with Ottawa was once-in-a-generation type season.

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08-03-2012, 06:39 PM
  #29
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I have trouble calling it once-in-a-generation when it's only that way because everyone else played poorly. He was under a point-per-game, whereas there have been 3(?) PPG+ seasons recently (two of them by Green).

Certainly give him credit for finding a way to score when nobody else (leaguewide even) seemed to be able to.

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08-03-2012, 09:33 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
It was an impressive season no doubt. But what Karlsson did with Ottawa was once-in-a-generation type season.
HAH...talk about overstated...

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08-03-2012, 11:21 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
It was an impressive season no doubt. But what Karlsson did with Ottawa was once-in-a-generation type season.
Lets see when we gonna have 31 G from a D-man again.

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08-04-2012, 12:12 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Braden Carlzner View Post
Well yeah Karlsson had a sexy point stat.

But he had so many assists, which is an amazingly deceiving stat. I wonder how many were secondary.
If you really wanna know... 23 of his 59 assists (~39%) were secondary. That's very good for a defenseman, cause generally D-men tend to have slightly more secondaries than primaries. For example, avearage rate of secondaries among top-30 D-men passers is 51.8%.
Other notable D-men who have more than 50% primaries:
Streit - 57.5% (23 primary assists, 17 secondary)
Pietrangelo - 53.8% (21, 18)
Wideman - 54.3% (19, 16)
Gonchar - 56.3% (18, 14)
Weber - 63.3% (19, 11)

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08-04-2012, 12:49 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
It was an impressive season no doubt. But what Karlsson did with Ottawa was once-in-a-generation type season.
I was going to respond to your earlier post, but I read this. I'm just going to chuckle and go on my way.

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08-04-2012, 04:47 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
It was an impressive season no doubt. But what Karlsson did with Ottawa was once-in-a-generation type season.
You have to keep in mind Mike Green had played 68 games to Karlsson's 81. Green was also the first defenseman... only defenseman to score 30 or more goals in a season since Kevin Hatcher accomplished the feat in 1992-93. That was 19 years ago. Know how many dmen have put up 78 or more points in a season since 1992-93? Leetch: 79, Zubov: 89, Lidstrom: 80... and I could be missing somebody. My point is, Mike Green put up a generational stat. One that hasn't been seen in nearly 20 years. He was prorated to get 37 goals and 88 points in a 82 game campaign. If he played in all 82 games, like Karlsson pretty much did, (with the exception of one), that would have put him ahead by 24 points of the next guy in line that season.

Brian Leetch and Chelios won Norris trophies over a better defensive defenseman in Vladimir Konstantinov. So there are definitely inconsistencies, favouritism over players... some times it's the big offensive juggernaut on D who wins it. Sometimes it's the better all-around dman who gets it.

Goes for pretty much every award. Malkin wins the Conn Smyrh over Crosby, despite the fact Sid the Kid had a stronger first 3 rounds. The following year Toews wins the Conn Smyth over Kane, despite the fact he had a weaker final of the two. Yet he had the stronger first three rounds. There is no real logic or pattern to what dictates winners in this league. Heck Gretzky won the Hart over Lemieux in 88/89 despite the fact Mario scored 31 more goals and points than No. 99, in 3 less games. Not to mention he took a Penguins team to its first playoff birth in nearly a decade.

We can spend countless days, weeks, even months debating why this guy should have won this .... but in the end, it will get us no where. Awards are subjective. The NHL's opinion comprises of a certain number of individuals. All of whom haven't seen said player(s) in great detail as others have... In my opinion, I feel Konstantinov was the best defenseman in the NHL his past two years. In 88/89, Lemieux was the MVP. And yes, I do believe Mike Green should have won the Norris that year. Why not? If guys like Rob Blake can win a Norris on a minus-3 season, or Karlsson can win it on sheer offence alone... then why the heck not.

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08-04-2012, 08:01 AM
  #35
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A Pens fan defending Mike Green? The end is nigh.

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08-04-2012, 11:02 AM
  #36
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Kershaw has a "crapitals" logo in his profile. That's about all you need to know regarding his opinion of Mike Green.

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08-04-2012, 12:05 PM
  #37
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1. Look at the difference between Green's point totals that year in 08-09 and then look at who was 2nd in the points race for D.

2. Look at Karlsson's point totals last year and the amount of points the 2nd highest scoring dman had.

You will find your answer.

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08-04-2012, 04:31 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by PensFan6687 View Post
You have to keep in mind Mike Green had played 68 games to Karlsson's 81. Green was also the first defenseman... only defenseman to score 30 or more goals in a season since Kevin Hatcher accomplished the feat in 1992-93. That was 19 years ago. Know how many dmen have put up 78 or more points in a season since 1992-93? Leetch: 79, Zubov: 89, Lidstrom: 80... and I could be missing somebody. My point is, Mike Green put up a generational stat. One that hasn't been seen in nearly 20 years. He was prorated to get 37 goals and 88 points in a 82 game campaign. If he played in all 82 games, like Karlsson pretty much did, (with the exception of one), that would have put him ahead by 24 points of the next guy in line that season.
You see a big reason why Green didn't get the Norris was due to the amount games he missed that year. It's a huge factor when deciding who was the best defender in the league when voting for the Norris. It happened again this year as Nugent-Hopkins lost out to Landeskog, despite putting up as many points in 20 less games. Yes, looking from a statistical standpoint, there is no doubt that Green's season is once in a generation, however when looking at the respective supporting casts, Green was playing with the Hart Trophy Winner in Ovechkin, #1 elite playmaking center in Backstrom and a Semin that had his best season. Karlsson had an out of his prime Alfredsson, a career yr from Michalek and Spezza. The talent level between the two teams weren't close, you can't say that Green was the Caps most valuable players because he missed games and Ovie won the Hart and Richard. Karlsson on the other hand was their biggest offensive threat, the system relied heavily on him and he was pressured to put up points and be the catalyst. When you look at his improvement from 2010-11 to 2011-12, there is a big reason why the Senators jumped from a borderliner-lottery team to playoff team and that's because of Karlsson's ridiculous breakout season.

Quote:
Brian Leetch and Chelios won Norris trophies over a better defensive defenseman in Vladimir Konstantinov. So there are definitely inconsistencies, favouritism over players... some times it's the big offensive juggernaut on D who wins it. Sometimes it's the better all-around dman who gets it.
Yeah, you rarely ever see the pure shutdown defensemen winning it, well since they don't show an elite level of 2-way play.

The Norris Trophy as described:

Quote:
The James Norris Memorial Trophy is an annual award given to the defenseman who demonstrates throughout the season the greatest all-round ability in the position.
This takes in consideration of offense too. And while I do realize that Leetch and Karlsson weren't elite defenders, their defensive play was adequate or the best on their respective teams. The voters take in account of that and that's why both of them won the Norris.

Quote:
Goes for pretty much every award. Malkin wins the Conn Smyrh over Crosby, despite the fact Sid the Kid had a stronger first 3 rounds. The following year Toews wins the Conn Smyth over Kane, despite the fact he had a weaker final of the two. Yet he had the stronger first three rounds. There is no real logic or pattern to what dictates winners in this league. Heck Gretzky won the Hart over Lemieux in 88/89 despite the fact Mario scored 31 more goals and points than No. 99, in 3 less games. Not to mention he took a Penguins team to its first playoff birth in nearly a decade.
I definitely agree that Gretzky didn't deserve the Hart of Mario that season, it was the NHL giving more attention to hockey in the south perhaps. On the other hand, Malkin finished with 5 more pts than Crosby in the finals, if hadn't won it, there would be criticism of Russian-bias. On another note, I definitely think Federov deserved the Smythe over Vernon, that was a joke. As much as I hate bringing in two-way play into account, Toews wasn't great in the finals, but he was a great overall player for the Blackhawks and he was their #2 shutdown type center (Bolland), he had far more defensive responsibilities and he did a hell of a job against the Thronton line and the Richards/Carter/Gagne line. You can make an argument of Toews winning it, you can also make an argument for Keith or Kane, I guess the media did favor Toews, but it wasn't the wrong pick.

Quote:
We can spend countless days, weeks, even months debating why this guy should have won this .... but in the end, it will get us no where. Awards are subjective. The NHL's opinion comprises of a certain number of individuals. All of whom haven't seen said player(s) in great detail as others have... In my opinion, I feel Konstantinov was the best defenseman in the NHL his past two years. In 88/89, Lemieux was the MVP. And yes, I do believe Mike Green should have won the Norris that year. Why not? If guys like Rob Blake can win a Norris on a minus-3 season, or Karlsson can win it on sheer offence alone... then why the heck not.
Oh, I'm not saying Green didn't deserve the Norris, but Karlsson's season was heads and shoulders ahead of the rest of the NHL defensemen in offense.

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08-04-2012, 05:55 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
You see a big reason why Green didn't get the Norris was due to the amount games he missed that year. It's a huge factor when deciding who was the best defender in the league when voting for the Norris. It happened again this year as Nugent-Hopkins lost out to Landeskog, despite putting up as many points in 20 less games. Yes, looking from a statistical standpoint, there is no doubt that Green's season is once in a generation, however when looking at the respective supporting casts, Green was playing with the Hart Trophy Winner in Ovechkin, #1 elite playmaking center in Backstrom and a Semin that had his best season.
Landeskog didn't win the Calder because he played more games than Hopkins or had as many points as him. He won because he was a +20 on a team with mostly negative players and on a team with only two players that were over +3 (Wilson was +11), Nugent-Hopkins was -2. Landeskog also played 110 shorthanded minutes whereas Nugent-Hopkins played 2 shorthanded minutes. Landeskog would've still won the Calder even if Nugent-Hopkins played all 82 games.

As good as the cap's offense was in 2008-2009, the bruin's offense was even better and that didn't stop Chara from winning the Norris.


Last edited by TheBlueJacket: 08-04-2012 at 06:04 PM. Reason: I forgot to include an important stat
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08-04-2012, 06:23 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by brs03 View Post
A Pens fan defending Mike Green? The end is nigh.
What can I say, I don't have tunnel vision like some fans. I am a realist. I know the Crapitals (feel better?) have some great talent and potential to do some great things when it counts. At this point of time, it's about realizing that potential. I would like to see how Adam Oates' coaching ethics work on your cast. I loved your draft btw. I was pissed that the Pens and Jets (Winnipeg Jets season ticket holder) passed up on Filip Forsberg, the safest pick and arguably the best forward in the draft over two project defensemen... and Tom Wilson, I so wanted to go to Pittsburgh. Love the kid. He was amazing in the playoffs when the stars went down with injuries. Good fighter as well. Love guys like that... kids with talent that can fight. Like your Milan Lucics and Rick Rypiens. Yes, Ripper had a decent game.. wheels for days and decent hands.

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08-04-2012, 07:20 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by TheBlueJacket View Post
Landeskog didn't win the Calder because he played more games than Hopkins or had as many points as him. He won because he was a +20 on a team with mostly negative players and on a team with only two players that were over +3 (Wilson was +11), Nugent-Hopkins was -2. Landeskog also played 110 shorthanded minutes whereas Nugent-Hopkins played 2 shorthanded minutes. Landeskog would've still won the Calder even if Nugent-Hopkins played all 82 games.

As good as the cap's offense was in 2008-2009, the bruin's offense was even better and that didn't stop Chara from winning the Norris.
I don't think so. If Nuge played all 82 games, he would've gotten 70 or so points. It would be a no-brainer for him winning the Calder.

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08-04-2012, 07:24 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
I don't think so. If Nuge played all 82 games, he would've gotten 70 or so points. It would be a no-brainer for him winning the Calder.
Again, it's all subjective.

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08-04-2012, 08:15 PM
  #43
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Pens fan vs Rags fan debating Mike Green on the Caps board.

Yep.

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