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Vancouver - Chicago (Lu, Edler, Kane, Hammer)

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Old
08-02-2012, 01:57 PM
  #126
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Wait, Edler is now one of the league's best defenseman?


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08-02-2012, 01:59 PM
  #127
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Change Edler and Hansen for Ballard and Raymond, then change the 1st to a 2nd.

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08-02-2012, 01:59 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
Wait, Edler is now one of the league's best defenseman?

Top-15, I would say. In fairness "one of the best" could therefore be a bit deceiving, depending on how wide a group of players one views that phrase to cover.

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08-02-2012, 02:01 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
Wait, Edler is now one of the league's best defenseman?

Yeah dude. That's why he's an allstar.

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08-02-2012, 02:08 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Chris Hansen View Post
Top-15, I would say. In fairness "one of the best" could therefore be a bit deceiving, depending on how wide a group of players one views that phrase to cover.
I'd say he barely cracks the top 20. Not exactly someone I put with Chara and Doughty.

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08-02-2012, 02:10 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by Cogburn View Post
Kulemin. Right there. Leafs fans were all over Kulemin (+ in fact).
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Well I was responding to someone who said Kane is better than Edler, signed or not. I doubt we'll have a problem resigning him, so that's a wash from our point of view.

Offers for Luongo from several Toronto fans:
Kadri, 1st, Lombardi
Bozak, Ashton, 2nd

And I think there was one Florida fan(admittedly not many) willing to do Howden + 1st + cap dump.

I would say any of those packages has more value than Hjaalmarsson, especially as we have no need for him on our back end.
Since when do HF Leaf fans decide what the trades are going to be? I guarentee Burke isn't looking to trade a mid 20's player with a lot of potential (Kulemin) for a ridiculous contract. I bet he isn't trading a 1st either.

Those packages may have more value than Hammer, but it's not happening.

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08-02-2012, 02:12 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
I'd say he barely cracks the top 20. Not exactly someone I put with Chara and Doughty.
Meh, really? I can't name 15 defensemen better than him while being honest with myself. He's somewhere between 12-15, IMO.

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08-02-2012, 02:29 PM
  #133
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This may sound ridiculous, but I wouldn't do Kane for Edler straight up, from the Vancouver point of view.

Edler is a solid defenseman who should get 50+ points per year for the next few seasons, while Kane will get around 25 goals, and 70 points. Kane only managed 66 points last season in a full 82 games, and playing 20 minutes a game, while Edler was able to get 49. One is a defenseman, the other a forward.

Kane's per minute point production isn't that high for a forward either, as he averaged the same amount of points as Chicago's Stralberg, who would come at a cheaper cap hit, and is 6'3 210 lbs.

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08-02-2012, 02:36 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by EXTRAS View Post
This may sound ridiculous, but I wouldn't do Kane for Edler straight up, from the Vancouver point of view.

Edler is a solid defenseman who should get 50+ points per year for the next few seasons, while Kane will get around 25 goals, and 70 points. Kane only managed 66 points last season in a full 82 games, and playing 20 minutes a game, while Edler was able to get 49. One is a defenseman, the other a forward.

Kane's per minute point production isn't that high for a forward either, as he averaged the same amount of points as Chicago's Stralberg, who would come at a cheaper cap hit, and is 6'3 210 lbs.
Except Kane played more than half the season out of position at center, was dealing with a nagging injury all year long... and still managed to put up the second-most ES points in his career. It was the death of the Chicago PP that hurt his production.

Put him on Vancouver - a team that consistently has a great PP - and his points probably jump right back up to 80+.

You are awfully quick to label him nothing more than a 25 goal, 70 point forward. But I have come to expect this type of silliness from HF... Kane is horribly underrated on here, for something that doesn't even have anything to do with the quality of his play on the ice (and this "something" is terribly, terribly overblown in the first place).

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08-02-2012, 02:44 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by Chris Hansen View Post
Except Kane played more than half the season out of position at center, was dealing with a nagging injury all year long... and still managed to put up the second-most ES points in his career. It was the death of the Chicago PP that hurt his production.

Put him on Vancouver - a team that consistently has a great PP - and his points probably jump right back up to 80+.

You are awfully quick to label him nothing more than a 25 goal, 70 point forward. But I have come to expect this type of silliness from HF... Kane is horribly underrated on here, for something that doesn't even have anything to do with the quality of his play on the ice (and this "something" is terribly, terribly overblown in the first place).
Tell me, what else does Kane bring than his 25 goal, 70 points? Is he a talented defensive player? No. Does he play the penalty kill? No. Does he stay controversy free? No. I would also point out that Kane has only ever had more than 80 points once. It isn't like he is playing with other poor offensive players on the powerplay. He is meant to be the star powerplay guy on the blackhawks, and if they have a poor powerplay, it is largely his fault.

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08-02-2012, 02:48 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by EXTRAS View Post
Tell me, what else does Kane bring than his 25 goal, 70 points? Is he a talented defensive player? No. Does he play the penalty kill? No. I would also point out that Kane has only ever had more than 80 points once. It isn't like he is playing with other poor offensive players on the powerplay. He is meant to be the star powerplay guy on the blackhawks, and if they have a poor powerplay, it is largely his fault.
He brings a clutch dimension that is matched by rather few players in the NHL... and his defensive deficiencies are certainly exaggerated - he has made great strides defensively under Quenneville.

Chicago's had one of the best PP's in the league for three years running prior to this past season. But yes, let's go ahead and label Kane nothing more than a 70 point player because of one down season for him and the team's extra-man offense as a whole. That's very fair!
Meanwhile, Edler is a guaranteed 50-point defenseman who doesn't collapse every time he's put into a #1 defenseman shutdown role

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08-02-2012, 02:54 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by Chris Hansen View Post
He brings a clutch dimension that is matched by rather few players in the NHL... and his defensive deficiencies are certainly exaggerated - he has made great strides defensively under Quenneville.

Chicago's had one of the best PP's in the league for three years running prior to this past season. But yes, let's go ahead and label Kane nothing more than a 70 point player because of one down season for him and the team's extra-man offense as a whole. That's very fair!
Meanwhile, Edler is a guaranteed 50-point defenseman who doesn't collapse every time he's put into a #1 defenseman shutdown role
How have you proven Kane to be more than a 70 point player? You haven't stated why he is. He was actually a 68 point player the last season, and I was going by all of his seasons other than his one 88 point season as labelling him a player who gets around 70 points. It is fine if he is an average defensive player, but that isn't something special he brings to the game. I could just as well put out a fourth line player to defend rather than Kane.

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08-02-2012, 03:38 PM
  #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EXTRAS View Post
How have you proven Kane to be more than a 70 point player? You haven't stated why he is. He was actually a 68 point player the last season, and I was going by all of his seasons other than his one 88 point season as labelling him a player who gets around 70 points. It is fine if he is an average defensive player, but that isn't something special he brings to the game. I could just as well put out a fourth line player to defend rather than Kane.
Kanes average is 74 points per season.
That's not really bad

Giroux' is 72 per year
Spazzas is 74 per year
Kessels is 55 per year
HSedins is 68 per year
Parises is 67 per year
Iginlas is 72 per year
Ryans is 62 per year


why take out his best year? If you do this, why not take out his worst year too to even it out? It would still be 72 points per year...
His D isn't as bad as you say, it's nothing special. This is true. In the end, Kane is one of the best Wingers in the NHL that is good at even strenght. The bad PP was the reason for his "bad season" point wise.

to break down the OP Trade...
Luongo isn't worth much in a trade. He is a good goalie, but has a NTC and gets paid a lot of money in the next 6 years. Not many teams are interested in him and with his NTC, he has to agree. All of this lowers his trade value and the leverage Gillis has.

I'm excited when he will be finally traded and for what. As longer Gillis waits as lower will be the return he gets. He needs to lower his demands first

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08-02-2012, 04:15 PM
  #139
Al Swearengen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubba88 View Post
Kanes average is 74 points per season.
That's not really bad

Giroux' is 72 per year
Spazzas is 74 per year
Kessels is 55 per year
HSedins is 68 per year
Parises is 67 per year
Iginlas is 72 per year
Ryans is 62 per year


why take out his best year? If you do this, why not take out his worst year too to even it out? It would still be 72 points per year...
His D isn't as bad as you say, it's nothing special. This is true. In the end, Kane is one of the best Wingers in the NHL that is good at even strenght. The bad PP was the reason for his "bad season" point wise.

to break down the OP Trade...
Luongo isn't worth much in a trade. He is a good goalie, but has a NTC and gets paid a lot of money in the next 6 years. Not many teams are interested in him and with his NTC, he has to agree. All of this lowers his trade value and the leverage Gillis has.

I'm excited when he will be finally traded and for what. As longer Gillis waits as lower will be the return he gets. He needs to lower his demands first
I agree with you that Kane has become underrated around here. There's a reason why I want the cocky cabby-clobberrer on my side.
On the other hand, I disagree with you entirely on the bolded points. Wait until November. If Luongo is still a Canuck by then, I think you'll see at least a few teams who are less happy with their goaltending than they might have hoped to be. Perhaps Chicago included. And if that's the case, the so-called "weak value" Luongo carries will be much improved from whatever it is now.

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08-02-2012, 04:19 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by Al Swearengen View Post
Wait until November. If Luongo is still a Canuck by then, I think you'll see at least a few teams who are less happy with their goaltending than they might have hoped to be. Perhaps Chicago included. And if that's the case, the so-called "weak value" Luongo carries will be much improved from whatever it is now.
If Lou is still a Nuck in November it will be a media circus. The first time Schneider gets pulled or has a bad stretch the Vancouver media will tear him apart just like they did Lou. Having Lou on the roster still will only make it worse. I highly doubt Lou starts the season with the Nucks let alone hangs around for that long.

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08-02-2012, 05:27 PM
  #141
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If Lou is still a Nuck in November it will be a media circus. The first time Schneider gets pulled or has a bad stretch the Vancouver media will tear him apart just like they did Lou. Having Lou on the roster still will only make it worse. I highly doubt Lou starts the season with the Nucks let alone hangs around for that long.


I agree that the media will be bad but they won't get on Schneider.If Schneids has a bad stretch I could see them questioning "Is trading Luongo the best Idea?". Which in reality kind of raises Luongo's value as he is seen as the guy that is consistent & has done it before.

It wouldn't be ideal but it could work. just not for the full season. Luongo will play, his value will go up & a desperate team will trade for him.

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08-02-2012, 05:35 PM
  #142
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I agree that the media will be bad but they won't get on Schneider.If Schneids has a bad stretch I could see them questioning "Is trading Luongo the best Idea?". Which in reality kind of raises Luongo's value as he is seen as the guy that is consistent & has done it before.

It wouldn't be ideal but it could work. just not for the full season. Luongo will play, his value will go up & a desperate team will trade for him.
You really think the media will leave Schneider alone if he starts to struggle? You really don't think the media would be a whole lot worse if Lou is still on the team? Having the media just speculating that trading Loungo might not be the best move isn't exactly good for that locker room, but I would seriously doubt the speculation would stop there. Vancouver's media seems especially vicious and I don't see Gillis putting Schneider into that position.

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08-02-2012, 08:19 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by EbonyRaptor View Post
Canuck fans praise Luongo as one of the league's elite goalies. But now that Schneider has played so well Luongo is expendable. However, Schnieder has never handled the #1 goalie responsibilities so there is still that little doubt that he will be as effective in the #1 spot thoughout the whole season. Plus Schneider has a much better contract than Luongo, so he would be very attractive to other teams - a Halak/Rask type #2 that is ready to assume the #1 spot.

So how about switching things up and keep Luongo and trade Schneider. As a Hawk fan I would love to pick up Schneider. How about this trade:

Schneider and Edler to Kane and Hjalmarsson.
Easy no from a Vancouver POV. I think while he is not as proven, Schneider is still the better goalie of the two. The guy looks so calm and poised in net. And while our top 6 gets better with the addition of Kane, our D gets worse with the loss of Edler. Not to mention our biggest rivals fill their one biggest weakness.

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08-02-2012, 08:25 PM
  #144
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I'd say he barely cracks the top 20. Not exactly someone I put with Chara and Doughty.
I'd love to see that list. Edler was #7 in D scoring this season, and 4 points back of the #2 spot. 13 points better than Doughty (who admittedly elevated his game in the playoffs). Big Z outclasses him, but Chara's the best D in the league now, imo.

I put Eddie inside the top 10, especially considering Lidstrom and Pronger aren't playing.

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08-02-2012, 09:12 PM
  #145
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I'd love to see that list. Edler was #7 in D scoring this season, and 4 points back of the #2 spot. 13 points better than Doughty (who admittedly elevated his game in the playoffs). Big Z outclasses him, but Chara's the best D in the league now, imo.

I put Eddie inside the top 10, especially considering Lidstrom and Pronger aren't playing.

Have you ever heard this guy named Shea Weber? Most people consider him to be the best defenseman in the National Hockey League.

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08-02-2012, 09:13 PM
  #146
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You really think the media will leave Schneider alone if he starts to struggle? You really don't think the media would be a whole lot worse if Lou is still on the team? Having the media just speculating that trading Loungo might not be the best move isn't exactly good for that locker room, but I would seriously doubt the speculation would stop there. Vancouver's media seems especially vicious and I don't see Gillis putting Schneider into that position.
They will do that if Luongo is here or not, I would imagine it would be a lot worse if Luongo wasn't there because there would be the question of "Did we just trade our franchise goalie & this new guy can't stop a puck?". I believe the pressure of Luongo not being there & Schneids being questions would be more intense. At least if Luongo was there; there would be an inner competition with 2 very good goalies who also happen to be friends.

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08-02-2012, 10:19 PM
  #147
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Have you ever heard this guy named Shea Weber? Most people consider him to be the best defenseman in the National Hockey League.
I'd say those two are pretty close actually. Chara was more dominant in the Van-Bos series than Weber was in the Van-Nsh series. And Chara wasn't playing with Suter.

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08-02-2012, 10:43 PM
  #148
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Originally Posted by VladTheImpaler View Post
Have you ever heard this guy named Shea Weber? Most people consider him to be the best defenseman in the National Hockey League.
Hmm that is kinda funny, since the top writers of the league voted a different guy as top Dman this year.
You know, the same year that Weber and Chara also played in.

I don't disagree they are definitely top 5, but to just discount the fact neither was even voted as best Dman this year is kinda funny

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08-02-2012, 11:10 PM
  #149
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Hmm that is kinda funny, since the top writers of the league voted a different guy as top Dman this year.
You know, the same year that Weber and Chara also played in.

I don't disagree they are definitely top 5, but to just discount the fact neither was even voted as best Dman this year is kinda funny
As an overall defenseman, Karlsson does not belong in the same breath as Chara and Weber. He is not an elite shutdown presence.

Maybe he will be eventually - god is he young, and that's promising as hell for him, the Sens, and their fans. But right now? Chara and Weber are more complete defensemen, and that's what I want the most from my #1 D-man.

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08-02-2012, 11:33 PM
  #150
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Why does a NTC limit Luongo's value?

Gillis hasnt asked him to waive it or asked him to supply him with a list.

Gillis is fielding offers from teams, he's weighing them and when he finds one he likes he'll present it to Luongo.

Having a NTC is a poor reason to knock someone's value. You either want him and are willing to for trade him or you aren't.

We can speculate on who the teams are that have offered for Luongo but in reality, nobody knows and under Gillis' regime in Vancouver information doesn't leak.

There are reports Luongo will speak to his agent this month and hadn't spoken with Gillis since late June. Which to me says Gillis hasn't received an offer he likes, yet.

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