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Kesler to Detroit

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Old
08-15-2012, 02:06 PM
  #201
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Kesler is more valuable due to age. Talentwise they're on the same tier, imo(Kesler, Richards, Bergeron, Zetterberg).
Zetterberg and Richards are better than the other two by a pretty significant margin.

Look at this way. You'd be hard pressed to find a Rangers fan who would be content with Bergeron or Kesler as their #1 centre, but I'm pretty sure most would be happy with Zetterberg there instead of Richards.

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08-15-2012, 02:10 PM
  #202
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Zetterberg and Richards are better than the other two by a pretty significant margin
I was referring to Mike Richards. And Zetterberg right now is unlikely to break 75 points again in his career. He's still an excellent player, but not the same one he was.

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08-15-2012, 02:14 PM
  #203
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I was referring to Mike Richards. And Zetterberg right now is unlikely to break 75 points again in his career. He's still an excellent player, but not the same one he was.
Mike Richards yes, but Zetterberg is still a great player while also being a phenomenal leader and playoff performer. He is also more proven than Kesler in terms of points and does not have as many injury issues despite being older.

And as for the 75 points thing, you could easily say the same about Kesler- Hank cause of age and Kesler cause of injuries

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08-15-2012, 02:19 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by cheesehead9099 View Post

And as for the 75 points thing, you could easily say the same about Kesler- Hank cause of age and Kesler cause of injuries
Which is why I have them in the same tier, despite the age difference. And Kesler also provides intangibles.

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08-15-2012, 02:31 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Which is why I have them in the same tier, despite the age difference. And Kesler also provides intangibles.
And zetterberg doesn't provide intangibles ?

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08-15-2012, 02:33 PM
  #206
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And zetterberg doesn't provide intangibles ?
I meant also, as in as well as Zetterberg.

I have them both in the same tier skill-wise, I'm not sure what the issue is. Kesler is more valuable because he's more likely to play longer. Hence, the only player more valuable than Kesler on the Wings is Datsyuk.

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08-15-2012, 02:46 PM
  #207
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He is a fan from Chicago...... isn't he?

Even if he isn't a Hawks fan you would have to think living in the city, probably surrounded by Blackhawk fans would cloud his vision just a bit.
True, I am Wings fan who lives in Chicago, but I don't let that cloud my judgment. I did think Kes only had two years left on his deal (should have checked cap geek), but in 4 years he will still only be 31, and will probably get above market for his defensive play and reputation. That is unless he REALLY pulls a Cheechoo, which is doubtful.

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08-15-2012, 03:51 PM
  #208
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It's not meant as an insult. I'm very consistent with my criticism of the Canucks organization because I truly believe they're only hurting themselves with the way their players behave. They were easily the most talented team in the league the last 2 seasons, but they just need to buckle down and play between the whistles and stop with the non-sense. I criticize Vigneault because he allows it to happen. Kesler and Burrows are really fun players to watch when they're actually playing hockey, and not running their mouths or throwing themselves on the ice.

As a Wings fan, I'm supposed to hate Chicago because they're a division rival, but I always root for them in the Van/Chi rivalry because their star players play the game with dignity.

As for the Bertuzzi avatar, he's been nothing but class since putting on the Red Wings jersey. I just think he has a funny expression in the photo and I don't support him for what he did to Steve Moore. Talk about broadside insults...
Last first:

The comment about Bertuzzi was in reference to his attitude while with the Canucks and had nothing to do with Moore. He's the dictionary definition of a player who has learnt from experience to modify his behavior, something you pointedly suggested was beyond the capacity of Kesler and Burrows.

As for your Burrows/Kesler comment, I agree completely with Ryan and 100% the opposite for Burrows. Burrows has been a very credible top line player the past two seasons, and has left all his previous "agitator" behavior behind him. People just throw Burrows into the mix because they're too lazy or biased to actually think for themselves.

It's great that you support those honest Hawks rosters, with yappers like Bolland and cheap, dirty whiners like Keith. That's really sensible of you.

As for Vigneault allowing it to happen, that's pure nonsense. He's addressed the issue directly to Kesler and Burrows, and both responded as asked. Kesler back slid in the PLAYOFFS last year, with some pathetic diving, due in large part (I assume, given that yes, I am a Canucks fan), to being injured and not being able to perform as wished. Oddly enough it does seem that players can and do get frustrated. See Mr. Keith as another fine example of that. Players aren't automatons that a coach controls as absolutely as you seem to suggest.

While I appreciate you answering my post, your reasons don't really imply the kind of objectivity you think you have about the Canucks. There are a lot of reasonable criticisms one can make about the Canucks, but suggesting their organization lacks the moral fiber to keep their players in line, while completely bending the truth about the players you're irritated with doesn't come off as very intelligent.

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08-15-2012, 03:57 PM
  #209
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I'd also like to say that both Pavel and Henrik are better than Kesler. While there are certain overlaps between all three, both Wings are quite superior most aspects of the game. Nothing wrong in admitting that from a Canucks perspective.

However, it makes no sense as a Canucks fan to trade Kesler to Wings without one of those two coming back, as they get worse with any of the Wings other players in a return. I doubt the Wings organization is chomping at the bit to unload either of their remaining marque players for Kesler.

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08-15-2012, 05:23 PM
  #210
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Value is probably close-ish, but the Canucks have zero reason to make this trade.
How is it though? Flip is a UFA soon and Franzen is a downgrade.

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08-15-2012, 06:22 PM
  #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quat View Post
Last first:

The comment about Bertuzzi was in reference to his attitude while with the Canucks and had nothing to do with Moore. He's the dictionary definition of a player who has learnt from experience to modify his behavior, something you pointedly suggested was beyond the capacity of Kesler and Burrows.

As for your Burrows/Kesler comment, I agree completely with Ryan and 100% the opposite for Burrows. Burrows has been a very credible top line player the past two seasons, and has left all his previous "agitator" behavior behind him. People just throw Burrows into the mix because they're too lazy or biased to actually think for themselves.

It's great that you support those honest Hawks rosters, with yappers like Bolland and cheap, dirty whiners like Keith. That's really sensible of you.

As for Vigneault allowing it to happen, that's pure nonsense. He's addressed the issue directly to Kesler and Burrows, and both responded as asked. Kesler back slid in the PLAYOFFS last year, with some pathetic diving, due in large part (I assume, given that yes, I am a Canucks fan), to being injured and not being able to perform as wished. Oddly enough it does seem that players can and do get frustrated. See Mr. Keith as another fine example of that. Players aren't automatons that a coach controls as absolutely as you seem to suggest.

While I appreciate you answering my post, your reasons don't really imply the kind of objectivity you think you have about the Canucks. There are a lot of reasonable criticisms one can make about the Canucks, but suggesting their organization lacks the moral fiber to keep their players in line, while completely bending the truth about the players you're irritated with doesn't come off as very intelligent.
Boston has dirty players everyone hates, Chicago has dirty players that everyone hates, Vancouver has dirty players everyone hates, every team does. A well thought out post, and I wish I had more to add then "everyone has at least one player that's hated on the ice".

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Originally Posted by quat View Post
I'd also like to say that both Pavel and Henrik are better than Kesler. While there are certain overlaps between all three, both Wings are quite superior most aspects of the game. Nothing wrong in admitting that from a Canucks perspective.

However, it makes no sense as a Canucks fan to trade Kesler to Wings without one of those two coming back, as they get worse with any of the Wings other players in a return. I doubt the Wings organization is chomping at the bit to unload either of their remaining marque players for Kesler.
Zetterberg I can't say with certainty is. Datsyuk without a doubt. I find Zetterberg and Kesler the more comparible of two to Kesler, but defensively responsable centers capable of scoring very high end numbers...that's as close as we can get it.

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Originally Posted by Kegsey View Post
How is it though? Flip is a UFA soon and Franzen is a downgrade.
I am still looking for an answer that isn't "look at their points...last year". If either player, who for the record I'd love on my team in another context, was the return, I would hope Gillis declines the offer.

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08-15-2012, 06:55 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by quat View Post
Last first:

The comment about Bertuzzi was in reference to his attitude while with the Canucks and had nothing to do with Moore. He's the dictionary definition of a player who has learnt from experience to modify his behavior, something you pointedly suggested was beyond the capacity of Kesler and Burrows.

As for your Burrows/Kesler comment, I agree completely with Ryan and 100% the opposite for Burrows. Burrows has been a very credible top line player the past two seasons, and has left all his previous "agitator" behavior behind him. People just throw Burrows into the mix because they're too lazy or biased to actually think for themselves.

It's great that you support those honest Hawks rosters, with yappers like Bolland and cheap, dirty whiners like Keith. That's really sensible of you.

As for Vigneault allowing it to happen, that's pure nonsense. He's addressed the issue directly to Kesler and Burrows, and both responded as asked. Kesler back slid in the PLAYOFFS last year, with some pathetic diving, due in large part (I assume, given that yes, I am a Canucks fan), to being injured and not being able to perform as wished. Oddly enough it does seem that players can and do get frustrated. See Mr. Keith as another fine example of that. Players aren't automatons that a coach controls as absolutely as you seem to suggest.

While I appreciate you answering my post, your reasons don't really imply the kind of objectivity you think you have about the Canucks. There are a lot of reasonable criticisms one can make about the Canucks, but suggesting their organization lacks the moral fiber to keep their players in line, while completely bending the truth about the players you're irritated with doesn't come off as very intelligent.
Keith is actually not a whiner on the ice, or very vocal in the media. Was his hit on Sedin clean? Nope, he hit shoulder to head. Was it deserved? Probably. People are quick to forget that Sedin threw a shoulder to Keith's head shortly before Keith retaliated. Is it the right thing to do to retaliate? Eh, not for me to decide. But don't play dirty, if you aren't willing to accept the same. Sucks it put him out for a bit though....

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08-15-2012, 07:16 PM
  #213
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Originally Posted by BeersHockey View Post
Keith is actually not a whiner on the ice, or very vocal in the media. Was his hit on Sedin clean? Nope, he hit shoulder to head. Was it deserved? Probably. People are quick to forget that Sedin threw a shoulder to Keith's head shortly before Keith retaliated. Is it the right thing to do to retaliate? Eh, not for me to decide. But don't play dirty, if you aren't willing to accept the same. Sucks it put him out for a bit though....
Apologetic BS. The league agreed that Keith's hit was dirty and Sedin's was not. The world outside of the Chicago-rose-coloured glasses agreed. Anyone with a shred of objectivity agrred.

There is a concept known as proportional response. This fundamental principle seems to be a mystery to many posters such as yourself.

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08-15-2012, 07:17 PM
  #214
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Apologetic BS. The league agreed that Keith's hit was dirty and Sedin's was not. The world outside of the Chicago-rose-coloured glasses agreed. Anyone with a shred of objectivity agrred.

There is a concept known as proportional response. This fundamental principle seems to be a mystery to many posters such as yourself.
He also thinks Keith's hit was just a shoulder to the head, and not a blatant elbow when Daniel was no where near the puck

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08-15-2012, 07:42 PM
  #215
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Kesler is great in his own end, but we have probably seen his Cheechoo years on offense. VAN can keep him, he won't live up to his next contact, which will be HUGE I am sure.
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True, I am Wings fan who lives in Chicago, but I don't let that cloud my judgment. I did think Kes only had two years left on his deal (should have checked cap geek), but in 4 years he will still only be 31, and will probably get above market for his defensive play and reputation. That is unless he REALLY pulls a Cheechoo, which is doubtful.
How is Keslers breakout years anything like Cheechoo? The guy scored 40 goals playing with Raymond and Higgins on the 2ND line. Not exactly Jumbo Joe is it.

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08-15-2012, 08:21 PM
  #216
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Originally Posted by BeersHockey View Post
Keith is actually not a whiner on the ice, or very vocal in the media. Was his hit on Sedin clean? Nope, he hit shoulder to head. Was it deserved? Probably. People are quick to forget that Sedin threw a shoulder to Keith's head shortly before Keith retaliated. Is it the right thing to do to retaliate? Eh, not for me to decide. But don't play dirty, if you aren't willing to accept the same. Sucks it put him out for a bit though....
to all of that bolded.

Shoulder to head? REALLY?


The thing is Daniel wasn't playing dirty, the NHL looked it over & didn't suspend him. Keith on the other hand....


For a Wings fan you sure know a lot about the Hawks & are willing to defend them!

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08-15-2012, 08:21 PM
  #217
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True, I am Wings fan who lives in Chicago, but I don't let that cloud my judgment. I did think Kes only had two years left on his deal (should have checked cap geek), but in 4 years he will still only be 31, and will probably get above market for his defensive play and reputation. That is unless he REALLY pulls a Cheechoo, which is doubtful.
I was right. I always look at the avatar, not the city.

I don't think he'll pull a Cheechoo, but I (and most Canucks fans) don't really think he's a regular 40 goal guy. 25-35 goals + 30-40 assists per season is about right.

He's actually a great team guy and took a big discount for his contract. The only knock against him IMO is that he gets frustrated which leads to embellishment, which I don't like much.

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08-15-2012, 08:43 PM
  #218
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Originally Posted by CommonMeans View Post
Apologetic BS. The league agreed that Keith's hit was dirty and Sedin's was not. The world outside of the Chicago-rose-coloured glasses agreed. Anyone with a shred of objectivity agrred.

There is a concept known as proportional response. This fundamental principle seems to be a mystery to many posters such as yourself.
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He also thinks Keith's hit was just a shoulder to the head, and not a blatant elbow when Daniel was no where near the puck
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Originally Posted by Imagine17 View Post
to all of that bolded.

Shoulder to head? REALLY?


The thing is Daniel wasn't playing dirty, the NHL looked it over & didn't suspend him. Keith on the other hand....


For a Wings fan you sure know a lot about the Hawks & are willing to defend them!
Fair enough, more elbow - honestly I didn't care at the time (still don't really) but hate the whiners that scream for blood when their guy who threw a cheap shot got hurt himself. There is no doubt that I probably support the Hawks more than the 'Nucks, but mostly because my like of the Hawks was born when they were no real threat to the Wings, and frankly they still aren't in my mind. We'll see in 3-4 years, perhaps my vitriol will shift. But to the poster that screams for proportional response - get real bud. Daniel targeted the head first, he should have known to keep his head up for Keith. So the league didn't suspend a player that was going to be sitting for multiple games already? Big deal. No reason to create more precedent when it wasn't an issue.

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08-15-2012, 08:48 PM
  #219
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How is Keslers breakout years anything like Cheechoo? The guy scored 40 goals playing with Raymond and Higgins on the 2ND line. Not exactly Jumbo Joe is it.
The comparison is that there is small production, and then BIG production, and everyone is expecting that is the norm going forward. People cannot call Kesler a 40 goal scorer after that one year. That he has fallen off is OK, and he is still a good player. If he gets back there, then we can talk, but I think it unlikely.

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08-15-2012, 08:53 PM
  #220
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Originally Posted by bikesbikesbikes View Post
I was right. I always look at the avatar, not the city.

I don't think he'll pull a Cheechoo, but I (and most Canucks fans) don't really think he's a regular 40 goal guy. 25-35 goals + 30-40 assists per season is about right.

He's actually a great team guy and took a big discount for his contract. The only knock against him IMO is that he gets frustrated which leads to embellishment, which I don't like much.
Thanks you! Yes, always look at the avatar, not the city! Honestly, I don't think he will pull a Cheechoo either, he is a very hard worker. But I agree that he is probably more an assist guy than scorer himself. I seek like 20-25 (not too shabby) and 30-35 assists is the range I see him hitting from here on (with great two-way play, of course). What do you think the current window is for the Nucks? Obviously they are in a longer (better) situation than the Wings, but I would not be surprised to see them in the WCF this year.

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08-15-2012, 08:59 PM
  #221
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Originally Posted by BeersHockey View Post
Fair enough, more elbow - honestly I didn't care at the time (still don't really) but hate the whiners that scream for blood when their guy who threw a cheap shot got hurt himself. There is no doubt that I probably support the Hawks more than the 'Nucks, but mostly because my like of the Hawks was born when they were no real threat to the Wings, and frankly they still aren't in my mind. We'll see in 3-4 years, perhaps my vitriol will shift. But to the poster that screams for proportional response - get real bud. Daniel targeted the head first, he should have known to keep his head up for Keith. So the league didn't suspend a player that was going to be sitting for multiple games already? Big deal. No reason to create more precedent when it wasn't an issue.

Like it or not Daniel's hit on Keith was NOT a cheap shot. The NHL deemed his hit clean.



Daniel should have kept his head up?

Maybe Keith shouldn't have overreacted to a clean hit & stuck his elbow out with clear intention to elbow a guy in the head when the puck is no where near him.

You know the thing I hate? When people are oblivious to the fact that a player did something dirty because its on a certain player or team they don't like. Heck its not even the first time he blatantly elbowed someone in the head either!

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08-15-2012, 10:10 PM
  #222
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Why are we talking about the Keith/Sedin incident in a Kesler to Detroit proposal thread? Get back on topic or be removed from the discussion. It's your choice.

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08-15-2012, 10:19 PM
  #223
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Originally Posted by BeersHockey View Post
The comparison is that there is small production, and then BIG production, and everyone is expecting that is the norm going forward. People cannot call Kesler a 40 goal scorer after that one year. That he has fallen off is OK, and he is still a good player. If he gets back there, then we can talk, but I think it unlikely.
How in the world has he fallen off? The guy is one season removed from his 40 goal season and he spent that whole season rehabbing a torn labrum that he came back WAY too early from. You can also factor in that he also played with a should injury that required surgery and will keep him out until December.

Let's wait until we see a healthy Kesler, before writing him off.

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08-15-2012, 10:20 PM
  #224
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Kesler is just as valuable to Vancouver as Datsyuk and Zetterberg are to Detroit. If you want Kesler, Expect one of those two to be coming back.


Last edited by TMI: 08-15-2012 at 10:21 PM. Reason: see also: mod warning above
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08-15-2012, 10:51 PM
  #225
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First, I'd like to add that the main reason I even brought up Kesler's "issues" is because I think it effect his trade value. Just so the mods know why we're discussing this. It's been rumored that he's been unhappy with the coaching in Vancouver, which I'm sure Canucks fans know about. (http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/h...583/story.html)

When Canucks fans starting making the proposals that started with Zetterberg+/Datsyuk+, you have to bring up Kesler's "issues". In a trade of that magnitude, it's not only about point production, defensive play and age...it's also about leadership, winning, and the players attitude. Zetterberg and Datsyuk are proven winners, leaders and play the game with the utmost class. So of course that kind of thing is going to come up in the discussion.

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The comment about Bertuzzi was in reference to his attitude while with the Canucks and had nothing to do with Moore. He's the dictionary definition of a player who has learnt from experience to modify his behavior, something you pointedly suggested was beyond the capacity of Kesler and Burrows.

As for your Burrows/Kesler comment, I agree completely with Ryan and 100% the opposite for Burrows. Burrows has been a very credible top line player the past two seasons, and has left all his previous "agitator" behavior behind him. People just throw Burrows into the mix because they're too lazy or biased to actually think for themselves.
Never did I suggest that, but I did suggest that they haven't changed their ways, as you did. Burrows was biting fingers within the past 2 years, I know that. Not sure when he pulled Keith's hair, might have been more than 2 years.

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It's great that you support those honest Hawks rosters, with yappers like Bolland and cheap, dirty whiners like Keith. That's really sensible of you.
Don't expect me to starting pumping the Hawks tires here, but Hossa, Towes, Sharp...all class. No diving, chirping, etc. Can't say the same for the Canucks star players.

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As for Vigneault allowing it to happen, that's pure nonsense. He's addressed the issue directly to Kesler and Burrows, and both responded as asked. Kesler back slid in the PLAYOFFS last year, with some pathetic diving, due in large part (I assume, given that yes, I am a Canucks fan), to being injured and not being able to perform as wished. Oddly enough it does seem that players can and do get frustrated. See Mr. Keith as another fine example of that. Players aren't automatons that a coach controls as absolutely as you seem to suggest.
Just because he tried to address the issue doesn't mean it's been fixed. I know coaches can't completely control a players actions, but I did say that Kesler's act wouldn't fly in Detroit. It's seems like you're making excuses for him. When Detroit players act a fool I'm disappointed and I hold them accountable, not that that means much from a fan perspective. I certainly don't go out of my way to defend them when it only makes the player (and team) look bad.

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