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L.A.-Detroit prospect swap

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Old
08-03-2012, 09:38 PM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
YOLO Bro!

I don't get your anger? I mean all I did was say the exact same thing you did? My point was why bother and I apologies if you read anger or anything like that into what I had written. I was literally laughing when I was typing my response.

I knew you were totally kidding when you suggested the obviously ridiculous Tatar and Jensen for two Stanley Cup winning very highly regarded exceptional D men like Mitchel and Scuderi. My point is that the OP's suggestion of Muzzin for Tatar was fair value.

Nothing more and nothing less.

After that it doesn't really matter. That is all that I was getting at, see?
Well it is a discussino board so I thought I would let you know WHY I wouldn't trade Tatar for Muzzin. Also it isn't fair value in my opinion Kings would have to add, no doubt. Anyways is everyone supposed to just answer yes or no to this question?

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08-03-2012, 09:43 PM
  #52
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Wings D prospect is shallow after B. Smith. However, I doubt there is any questions Tatar will be a 2nd liner in the near future. Detroit should keep him, let him develop so people can see his true potential, then perhaps trade him in a package deal for a top NHL ready defenseman.

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08-03-2012, 10:11 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by ZetterBurger View Post
Well it is a discussino board so I thought I would let you know WHY I wouldn't trade Tatar for Muzzin. Also it isn't fair value in my opinion Kings would have to add, no doubt. Anyways is everyone supposed to just answer yes or no to this question?
Come on, you know that wasn't what I was inferring.

It is absolutely fair value. Muzzin is Kyle Quincey with an edge to his game, he has shown that he can play and play well at the NHL level and would have been with the Kings last season if we had any room.

I understand that you want to find out what you have in your own prospects but what could you possibly be basing your opinion that the Kings would have to add to get Tatar? Both are prospects who are well thought of by their own orgs and neither are expected to become the best players on their teams.

Muzzin projects to be a second pairing Dman in the same way that Martinez recently was and has turned out to become. He is easily fair value for Tatar, a player that I like and think could become a solid second line scoring winger.

The point is that neither of these two prospects are expected to become superstars at their positions but are expected to be quality NHLers and that makes the deal fair value.


Yes.

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08-03-2012, 11:25 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
That's why everyone said pretty much the same thing that I did.

O.K., doesn't matter anyways.
Really? Didn't see anybody else write a dissertation on why it would be a bad deal even though I never suggested Jarnkrok himself would be a deal anyways.

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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
Red Wings would make this deal.


Kinds wouldn't make this deal.
No, the Wings wouldn't make this deal.

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08-03-2012, 11:36 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HTT3 View Post
Wings D prospect is shallow after B. Smith. However, I doubt there is any questions Tatar will be a 2nd liner in the near future. Detroit should keep him, let him develop so people can see his true potential, then perhaps trade him in a package deal for a top NHL ready defenseman.
I disagree. After Smith we have Ouellet, Sproul, Jensen, Marchenko, Backman, Nedomel, etc. We have quite a few guys who have legitimate chance of making the NHL as regulars.

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08-03-2012, 11:37 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by sully61 View Post
I disagree. After Smith we have Ouellet, Sproul, Jensen, Marchenko, Backman, Nedomel, etc. We have quite a few guys who have legitimate chance of making the NHL as regulars.
Problem is those guys are all 2-3 years out.

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08-04-2012, 12:24 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Wingsfan2965 View Post
Problem is those guys are all 2-3 years out.
Well Smith this year, Dekeyser hopefully next, then those guys.

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08-04-2012, 12:34 AM
  #58
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Only way DET would move a high level prospect like either one of those would be in a package deal for a big name player.

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08-04-2012, 12:58 AM
  #59
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I dont want to move Muzzin.

How about

Holloway + Moller for Tatar or Jurco

Kings move 2 guys who went to Europe but could easily be lured back by the Wings for Tatar, who I like quite a bit, or Jurco as we need RW help IMO as well

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08-04-2012, 01:34 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by sully61 View Post
Well Smith this year, Dekeyser hopefully next, then those guys.
How about we sign DeKeyser before we claim he'll be playing on the main roster?

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08-04-2012, 04:18 AM
  #61
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Tatar had two good seasons in the AHL en Muzzin is massively overrated.

Played a couple of good/decent/bad games in the NHL on the last pairing, 23 years old, not a stand-out in the AHL at all. Signed as free agent (mainly because of his outstanding offensive output in his last junior season).

Tatar might at least have a future as top 6 player in the NHL, Muzzin's upside is Denis Gauthier at best.

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08-04-2012, 04:19 AM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rajuabju View Post
I dont want to move Muzzin.

How about

Holloway + Moller for Tatar or Jurco

Kings move 2 guys who went to Europe but could easily be lured back by the Wings for Tatar, who I like quite a bit, or Jurco as we need RW help IMO as well
IMO Tatar and Jurco have more potential. And we wouldn't get any D prospects in that proposal.

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Old
08-04-2012, 06:46 AM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post

Tatar for Muzzin is fair value. Period.
Not really. Period.

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08-04-2012, 08:54 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Wingsfan2965 View Post
How about we sign DeKeyser before we claim he'll be playing on the main roster?
Huh? Wings could be looking at this defense in 2013:

Ryan Suter-Justin Schultz
Niklas Kronwall-Brendan Smith
Jonathan Ericsson-Dan Dekeyser

Lookin' good!

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08-04-2012, 10:01 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by RomersWorld View Post
Huh? Wings could be looking at this defense in 2013:

Ryan Suter-Justin Schultz
Niklas Kronwall-Brendan Smith
Jonathan Ericsson-Dan Dekeyser

Lookin' good!
Umm, don't believe anybody here was optimistic about the Wings signing Schultz.

Pretty well known that Dekeyser loves Detroit though. I'm not saying it's gonna happen, but we are the early favorite.

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08-04-2012, 10:13 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Frolov 6'3 View Post
Tatar had two good seasons in the AHL en Muzzin is massively overrated.

Played a couple of good/decent/bad games in the NHL on the last pairing, 23 years old, not a stand-out in the AHL at all. Signed as free agent (mainly because of his outstanding offensive output in his last junior season).

Tatar might at least have a future as top 6 player in the NHL, Muzzin's upside is Denis Gauthier at best.
Suter? Min probably not gonna trade him.

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08-04-2012, 02:43 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
But that wasn't what was said or how you phrased it. You clearly said that it would take Kopitar if the Kings wanted Jarnkrok. Then you made the qualifying statement that it wouldn't be a one for one deal.

No matter how you slice it what you wrote was clearly ridiculous. I mean who would you add to Jankrok that you feel would be a fair deal to get Kopitar, a young 1c who is not only consistently one of the top ten centers in the game and has been so for the past few years but is coming of his first cup where he was considered a possible MVP?

I mean it is ridiculous to think that the Kings would consider Jankrok as an important part of a deal for Kopitar. As an add on maybe but then the Wings aren't in any position to make the kind of deal that it would take to get the Kings to deal Kopitar at this time either.

The Kings wouldn't deal Kopitar unless an upgrade to their number one center position was the key to the whole deal.

What you are suggesting is that the Wings would insist on Kopitar coming back if Jankrok was being dealt and that is the part that is clearly ridiculous to me. If the Wings had a shot at Kopitar they wouldn't give a second thought to dealing away an unproven prospect who they hope might turn out to be as good of a center as Kopitar has become.

Then you said that I must not be able to read worth a **** and that is how we got here.

So you made a ridiculous statement and I commented on it, no biggie, happens to everyone.
Calle Järnkrok would only be dealt in a top six upgrade or top 4 D(really read top 2) upgrade. He was not wrong there are very few things Wings fans and more importantly Wings management would ever consider moving that kid for. He is being protected before Nyquist and depth players in the rumored offers for Nash, JayBo, and Yandle.

They don't want to move him period and they don't want to do it without a significant upgrade in the Detroit lineup. Asking for Kopitar is absurd as he is not available, but the point is Calle Järnkrok isn't really available either. Holland is a conservative guy he doesn't trade guys like this and the scouting staff keeps saying the kid is just like Zetterberg. Was the first line center on a championship team last year after averaging a point a game in the playoffs as well.

As for another point on here Jakob Silfverberg was drafted the year before Calle Järnkrok he is in fact a year older. To date he has actually eclipsed Silfverberg at each step of development when you look at their ages and point production. All this while not being quite as physically mature and playing a more important position. If he can get up to around 190 lbs before he gets to NA for good, then he will not spend a second in the AHL much like Zetterberg and Franzen came straight over. So he is NHL ready, they just want him to have a little more weight and they have too many contracts this year. I have a feeling people who watch Detroit in the pre-season are going to be disappointed that we aren't keeping him here.

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08-04-2012, 03:06 PM
  #68
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Why does Jankrok have all of this potential all of a sudden? Guess he's better than Kopitar now.

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08-04-2012, 03:07 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Landeskog2Semin View Post
Why does Jankrok have all of this potential all of a sudden? Guess he's better than Kopitar now.
All of a sudden?

Umm, he was regarded as a great pick from the start...

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08-04-2012, 03:21 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Landeskog2Semin View Post
Why does Jankrok have all of this potential all of a sudden? Guess he's better than Kopitar now.
Who ever hinted that? He's ultimate upside is Kopitar-level, assuming he reaches it.

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Old
08-04-2012, 05:02 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
Calle Järnkrok would only be dealt in a top six upgrade or top 4 D(really read top 2) upgrade. He was not wrong there are very few things Wings fans and more importantly Wings management would ever consider moving that kid for. He is being protected before Nyquist and depth players in the rumored offers for Nash, JayBo, and Yandle.

They don't want to move him period and they don't want to do it without a significant upgrade in the Detroit lineup. Asking for Kopitar is absurd as he is not available, but the point is Calle Järnkrok isn't really available either. Holland is a conservative guy he doesn't trade guys like this and the scouting staff keeps saying the kid is just like Zetterberg. Was the first line center on a championship team last year after averaging a point a game in the playoffs as well.

As for another point on here Jakob Silfverberg was drafted the year before Calle Järnkrok he is in fact a year older. To date he has actually eclipsed Silfverberg at each step of development when you look at their ages and point production. All this while not being quite as physically mature and playing a more important position. If he can get up to around 190 lbs before he gets to NA for good, then he will not spend a second in the AHL much like Zetterberg and Franzen came straight over. So he is NHL ready, they just want him to have a little more weight and they have too many contracts this year. I have a feeling people who watch Detroit in the pre-season are going to be disappointed that we aren't keeping him here.
I understand your position on Jarco, he really wasn't part of the conversation at this point though and you would have a hard time getting an established top 6er of Kopitars value for him unless you were returning one to the team you were trading with. I give you Brayden I walk on water Schenn as my example and while Jarco is a great prospect he wouldn't likely draw the same amount of interest that Schenn did during his time as a Kings prospect.

So my position stands imo where the Wings would have to add a player like Zetterberg or the Mule along with Jarco to get a player like Kopitar back in return, a deal that the Wings would never make nor would the Kings at this point.

The point of discussion was that the op was implying that in order to get Jarco the Kings would have to be sending back Kopitar and while he made a qualifying statement as an after thought that there would have to be additional value given by the wings the statement is ridiculous enough on its own to where most readers saw it as silly.

Now if he had worded it lalong the lines of the only way I see the Wings dealing Jarco would be if they added Franzen or Zetterberg to the mix and got back Kopitar and one of your D prospects (Muzzin, Hickey, Forbort) then it would have been an understandable and more reasonable statement imo.

Of course neither team would make that deal but his assessment of Jarco's value at least would have been more on track then simply saying that if the Wings dealt Jarco (as part of the deal) the Kings would have to be sending back Kopitar .

Phrasing it that way implies that Jarco would be the value or center piece of such a deal from the Wings side and that is truly ridiculous. While I agree that Jarco is becoming an elite level prospect and that the Wings should hang onto him unless a truly ridiculous offer came along he isn't worthy of being a center piece in a deal for Kopitar at this point in his career.

I would also point out that it was the OP who made the suggestion/statement. I know that the Wings won't be dealing Jarco and that is why I have focused my responses around Tatar who is fair value for Muzzin but then if it were important I would consider swapping out Tatar and Muzzin and making it for a different prospect and Forbort if it meant anything.

The overall point was that the Wings have some solid wing prospects and the Kings have the best D prospects (arguable maybe but we do have two exceptional prospects who are NHL ready and have been for a whole season now) in the game and that a deal between the two teams would make sense as they would both be dealing from positions of strength.

That was my point and like I said, I respect what you are saying about Jarco and hope that I have addressed that enough in this post. The OP had amended his original offer to Tatar for Muzzin for the most part earlier and that is the part of the offer that I believe both teams would at the very least strongly consider.

Jarco really shouldn't even be part of the discussion. Firstly due to the fact that the Kings haven't any need for him as we are overloaded with Centers and have the most depth at that position in the league imo. With Kopitar, Richards, Carter, Stoll, Frazer, Lewis and Nolan all playing on the big club, some of them even having to play out of position due to our lack of NHL ready/top 6 level prospects and secondly due to the fact that we have Loktionov struggling to keep a spot on the team due to numbers as well we just have too many centers and not enough spaces.


Not that Jarco wouldn't like be an upgrade to some of our centers but that we are just too overloaded at this point to do anything about it.


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08-04-2012, 05:06 PM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
I understand your position on Jarco, he isn't part of the conversation at this point though you would never get an established top 6er of any true value for him unless you were returning one to the team you were trading with. I give you Brayden I walk on water Schenn as my example and while Jarco is a great prospect he wouldn't likely draw the same amount of interest that Schenn did during his time as a Kings prospect.

So my position stands imo where the Wings would have to add a player like Zetterberg or the Mule along with Jarco to get a player like Kopitar back in return, a deal that the Wings would never make nor would the Kings at this point.

The point of discussion was that the op was implying that in order to get Jarco the Kings would have to be sending back Kopitar and while he made a qualifying statement as an after thought that there would have to be additional value given by the wings the statement is ridiculous enough on its own to where most readers saw it as silly.

Now if he had worded it lalong the lines of the only way I see the Wings dealing Jarco would be if they added Franzen or Zetterberg to the mix and got back Kopitar and one of your D prospects (Muzzin, Hickey, Forbort) then it would have been an understandable and more reasonable statement imo.

Of course neither team would make that deal but his assessment of Jarco's value at least would have been more on track then simply saying that if the Wings dealt Jarco (as part of the deal) the Kings would have to be sending back Kopitar .

Phrasing it that was implies that Jarco would be the value or center piece of such a deal from the Wings side and that is truly ridiculous. While I agree that Jarco is becoming an elite level prospect and that the Wings should hang onto him unless a truly ridiculous offer came along he isn't worthy of being a center piece in a deal for Kopitar at this point in his career.

I would also point out that it was the OP who made the suggestion/statement. I know that the Wings won't be dealing Jarco and that is why I have focused my responses around Tatar who is fair value for Muzzin but then if it were important I would consider swapping out Tatar and Muzzin and making it for a different prospect and Forbort if it meant anything.

The overall point was that the Wings have some solid wing prospects and the Kings have the best D prospects (arguable maybe but we do have two exceptional prospects who are NHL ready and have been for a whole season now) in the game and that a deal between the two teams would make sense as they would both be dealing from positions of strength.

That was my point and like I said, I respect what you are saying about Jarco and hope that I have addressed that enough in this post. The OP had amended his original offer to Tatar for Muzzin for the most part earlier and that is the part of the offer that I believe both teams would at the very least strongly consider.

Jarco really shouldn't even be part of the discussion. Firstly due to the fact that the Kings haven't any need for him as we are overloaded with Centers and have the most depth at that position in the league imo. With Kopitar, Richards, Carter, Stoll, Frazer, Lewis and Nolan all playing on the big club, some of them even having to play out of position due to our lack of NHL ready/top 6 level prospects not to mention the fact that we have Loktionov struggling to keep a spot on the team due to numbers as well we just have too many centers and not enough spaces.


Not that Jarco wouldn't like be an upgrade to some of our centers but that we are just too overloaded at this point to do anything about it.
Sorry are you talking about Jurco or Jarnkrok? I never said we wouldn't have to add, my point was he would not be available in a prospect swap, much like Schenn wasn't. He is very highly regarded by Wings brass, not just fans. I think Hakan Andersson the Wings super Sweden scout might quit if they traded him, it unusual for him to be as consistently high on a prospect as he has been on Calle since the Wings drafted him.

I don't think this deal is enough for Tatar either. He has made significant improvements while his stat sheet might not show it, that was key to the Wings wanting him in the future. He was all offense to start, but has improved his defense and skating so that he is not just a top 6 or bust player and can actually be groomed on the third line to start. Something that has always been important to Wings management. He also finished the season strong with a great end scoring wise to the AHL season and then cracked a top six role for Slovakia at the WC and was impressive in their runner up effort.

Not to mention I think he is important with the fact they have Jurco and Tvrdon coming along that are also from Slovakia. The way they have concentrated on Slovakia and the Czech Republic lately tells me they think it is the new overlooked area in Europe right now. I don't want the rights to a talented player overseas, the only way they do this is if Tatar sends out an ultimatum that he better be in Detroit this season or he will go play for SKA in the KHL where he was a first round draft pick.


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Old
08-04-2012, 05:13 PM
  #73
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The Wings current core is going to be handing the keys to the team to the next group of guys in the next 5 years. The players like Jarnkrok, Jurco, Tatar, Nyquist, Pulkkinen, Sproul, Ouellet, etc. are by no means untouchable, but the Wings believe in their draft teams and their scouts. They think these guys are going to be the next great Wings. There is not sense in moving them for prospects unless they are elite (which won't happen) or for current players that will be in their primes now or in a year and will still be in their primes when Z/Mule/Pav/Kronner are in the twilight of their careers.

The prospects the Wings have show a ton of potential, although most fans of other teams who don't know about them just clamor about how overrated they are. They aren't being moved for anything short of a star/future star, because a lot of them have realistic potential to become one.

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08-04-2012, 05:21 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
Sorry are you talking about Jurco or Jarnkrok? I never said we wouldn't have to add, my point was he would not be available in a prospect swap, much like Schenn wasn't. He is very highly regarded by Wings brass, not just fans. I think Hakan Andersson the Wings super Sweden scout might quit if they traded him, it unusual for him to be as consistently high on a prospect as he has been on Calle since the Wings drafted him.

I don't think this deal is enough for Tatar either. He has made significant improvements while his stat sheet might not show it, that was key to the Wings wanting him in the future. He was all offense to start, but has improved his defense and skating so that he is not just a top 6 or bust player and can actually be groomed on the third line to start. Something that has always been important to Wings management. He also finished the season strong with a great end scoring wise to the AHL season and then cracked a top six role for Slovakia at the WC and was impressive in their runner up effort.

Not to mention I think he is important with the fact they have Jurco and Tvrdon coming along that are also from Slovakia. The way they have concentrated on Slovakia and the Czech Republic lately tells me they think it is the new overlooked area in Europe right now. I don't want the rights to a talented player overseas, the only way they do this is if Tatar sends out an ultimatum that he better be in Detroit this season or he will go play for SKA in the KHL where he was a first round draft pick.

Sorry about that I meant Jankrok and have a bad habit of abbreviating players names in that manner.


To your response regarding Tatar and Muzzin I have to ask you how many times you have seen Jake play at both the NHL and AHL levels? He is as good as Alec Martinez was when he made the jump to the NHL with the exception of the fact that Muzzin plays with more of an edge to his game. Now I can't promise that Muzzin will become as exceptional of a D man that Martinez has proven to be but I think all signs point to him at the very least coming close to doing so if not better in some ways.

The deal is fair in my opinion but if we disagree on the value then that is cool, at least we end up much closer to agreeing then disagreeing on the overall value and that is good enough for me.

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08-04-2012, 05:25 PM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZetterBurger View Post
The Wings current core is going to be handing the keys to the team to the next group of guys in the next 5 years. The players like Jarnkrok, Jurco, Tatar, Nyquist, Pulkkinen, Sproul, Ouellet, etc. are by no means untouchable, but the Wings believe in their draft teams and their scouts. They think these guys are going to be the next great Wings. There is not sense in moving them for prospects unless they are elite (which won't happen) or for current players that will be in their primes now or in a year and will still be in their primes when Z/Mule/Pav/Kronner are in the twilight of their careers.

The prospects the Wings have show a ton of potential, although most fans of other teams who don't know about them just clamor about how overrated they are. They aren't being moved for anything short of a star/future star, because a lot of them have realistic potential to become one.
I agree that the Wings have one of the top 5 scouting groups in the NHL on a consistent basis but have to question your valuing of all of these kids becoming future stars because that is what you are saying when you say that they will only be dealt for a star future star.

Muzzin Hickey Forbort and Deslauriers all have as much potential to become future stars as any of the players save Jarnkrok that you have listed. The only difference is on D. The Kings scouting has proven to be quite exceptional over the past several years as well and there isn't any way that we will be dealing any of our kids unless we get a reasonable return that we think will help us win the cup again.

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