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Stop signs are for quitters: the Moises Sierra story

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Old
08-17-2012, 10:47 AM
  #976
Ohio Jones
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Originally Posted by weems View Post
Anyways it looks like the Astros did really well in this deal. MLB just updated its top 20 prospects for them and this is how they have it.

#7 Kevin Comer
#8 Joe Musgrove
#12 Asher WOJ
#16 Carlos Perez
More an indication of how shallow Houston's prospect pool was, isn't it? If they're very lucky, one or two of those prospects will have Happ/Lyon-like careers (which is why try we're much lower on the Jays' prospect list, and also why Anthopolous was willing to move them). Toronto's depth is not really impacted. Can we please move on now, or do we have to keep going over these relatively inconsequential trades for the next several years?

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08-17-2012, 10:50 AM
  #977
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More an indication of how shallow Houston's prospect pool was, isn't it? If they're very lucky, one or two of those prospects will have Happ/Lyon-like careers (which is why try we're much lower on the Jays' prospect list, and also why Anthopolous was willing to move them). Toronto's depth is not really impacted. Can we please move on now, or do we have to keep going over these relatively inconsequential trades for the next several years?
Well he has a point, we gave up players that Baseball writers thought highly of their performance in 2011 was.

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08-17-2012, 10:57 AM
  #978
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Who do you think is responsible for the transformation of Morrow and the development of Drabek? I'm guessing you still want Gaston as manager?

Farrel is fine, he will help right the ship of the pitching staff. The offence is fine when healthy.
Actually if you read my post you'll see who I recommended we should hire.

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08-17-2012, 11:02 AM
  #979
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More an indication of how shallow Houston's prospect pool was, isn't it? If they're very lucky, one or two of those prospects will have Happ/Lyon-like careers (which is why try we're much lower on the Jays' prospect list, and also why Anthopolous was willing to move them). Toronto's depth is not really impacted. Can we please move on now, or do we have to keep going over these relatively inconsequential trades for the next several years?
HAHAH this is a message board. Do you know how many less inconsequential things get discussed WAY more then this on the Leafs board? I dont see how this is insequencial at all, its a trade that was made midseason and we gave up 4 young arms and a catcher for ML roster help. Sure its a indication that there farm isnt as good as ours but those were still 4 guys that were in Torontos top 20. Its hilarious that once a prospect is traded people come out of the woodworks with "they'll be lucky to have a Happ career" and rip on the prospects for just about anything but none of this stuff was being spewed before the trade. I didnt hear one single person in any Jays related thread bring up concerns about Comer's velocity but as soon as he's traded its treated like its some factual sign that hes not going to be anything good.

The fact you want to squash this conversation makes me think your not really that high on the trade.

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08-17-2012, 11:04 AM
  #980
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More an indication of how shallow Houston's prospect pool was, isn't it? If they're very lucky, one or two of those prospects will have Happ/Lyon-like careers (which is why try we're much lower on the Jays' prospect list, and also why Anthopolous was willing to move them). Toronto's depth is not really impacted. Can we please move on now, or do we have to keep going over these relatively inconsequential trades for the next several years?
This is kind of false. Depth is always impact by trades like this. It gives other players an opportunity at lower levels but they still need to replenish the higher levels of the minor leagues. For example we saw Gose and Sierra both called up, Sierra has done a good job, Gose probably wasn't ready. Do you think the Jays wouldn't have had to rush these guys up if they kept around a guy like Mastroianni who's had a productive year with Minnesota. Would you prefer to see Mastroianni instead of Davis? Is Sierra good enough to claim a starting OF spot next year? Will Gose be good enough?

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08-17-2012, 11:07 AM
  #981
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Well he has a point, we gave up players that Baseball writers thought highly of their performance in 2011 was.
Oh you mean these same people that you've been referencing tons the past 2 years?
You if anybody shouldnt be talking down prospect lists because the past 2 years all youve been doing is talking about the teams depth and using Baseball america, MLB.com and others as your source. You used to be a good poster because you werent that biased and seemed objective on most things but all you do these days is defend EVERY single move AA makes like hes incapable of making bad deals.

Just before the deadline you went on about how now that certain teams had made deals it would make it easier for us to go after Garza, Johnson etc, then after the deadline came and passed you talked about it being such a dumb idea to go after those players because they only had one year left. You used to always rip Leaf fans for there blind loyalty and defending every single move but your starting to sound very similar.

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08-17-2012, 11:22 AM
  #982
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Originally Posted by weems View Post
Anyways it looks like the Astros did really well in this deal. MLB just updated its top 20 prospects for them and this is how they have it.

#7 Kevin Comer
#8 Joe Musgrove
#12 Asher WOJ
#16 Carlos Perez
This is more an indictment on the prospects and Houston's overall system than anything. For one, it's well known Houston's system is extremely weak, which is why guys who were 15-25 in our prospect list rank higher in their list, BUT these prospects really aren't anything special, as they are still ranked lower than the crap Houston has...

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how long is bautista going to sit out with his tender wrist? seriously, how soft are these guys? very little drive or desire to get back in there and help the team.

they could really learn something from hockey players. or the women's bronze medal soccer team. those girls played hurt.

in baseball, you're not expected to play through any discomfort whatsoever.
Yeah, a bunch of guys in the MLB are probably considered soft, but to call Bautista out on it? He relies on his wrists to pretty much contribute anything to this line-up, have you ever tried to throw, hit or even play hockey with an injured wrist? Chances are you'd be pretty useless. Also, baseball players play pretty much everyday, so while yeah they seem soft, playing full out everyday can take its toll...

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Originally Posted by RayzorIsDull View Post
This is kind of false. Depth is always impact by trades like this. It gives other players an opportunity at lower levels but they still need to replenish the higher levels of the minor leagues. For example we saw Gose and Sierra both called up, Sierra has done a good job, Gose probably wasn't ready. Do you think the Jays wouldn't have had to rush these guys up if they kept around a guy like Mastroianni who's had a productive year with Minnesota. Would you prefer to see Mastroianni instead of Davis? Is Sierra good enough to claim a starting OF spot next year? Will Gose be good enough?
This is a different situation than Mastro. Trading minor league guys 5+ levels away from the majors has no impact on that kind of depth that Mastro would have provided...plus, Mastro was moved off the 40-man because guys like Sierra and McDade had to be put on it and were seen as having more upside.

Also, no, I wouldn't prefer him over Davis.

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08-17-2012, 11:28 AM
  #983
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Originally Posted by Quik View Post
This is more an indictment on the prospects and Houston's overall system than anything. For one, it's well known Houston's system is extremely weak, which is why guys who were 15-25 in our prospect list rank higher in their list, BUT these prospects really aren't anything special, as they are still ranked lower than the crap Houston has...



Yeah, a bunch of guys in the MLB are probably considered soft, but to call Bautista out on it? He relies on his wrists to pretty much contribute anything to this line-up, have you ever tried to throw, hit or even play hockey with an injured wrist? Chances are you'd be pretty useless. Also, baseball players play pretty much everyday, so while yeah they seem soft, playing full out everyday can take its toll...



This is a different situation than Mastro. Trading minor league guys 5+ levels away from the majors has no impact on that kind of depth that Mastro would have provided...plus, Mastro was moved off the 40-man because guys like Sierra and McDade had to be put on it and were seen as having more upside.

Also, no, I wouldn't prefer him over Davis.
Regardless of the quality of there system, they got basically 4 top 15 ranked guys for JA frickin Happ (who was pretty brutal for them) Brandon Lyon whos a free agent and would have certainly bolted and a project reliever in Carpenter. That team is rebuilding and they really didnt give up anything thats apart of that team going forward then potentially Carpenter. I never said these were stud prospects but all of Comer, Musgrove, WOJ and Perez were/are solid prospects and its just funny seeing people trying to rip them apart now that they've been traded. They also did a good thing and pushed both WOJ and Perez up a level higher and both are actually doing well. These guys arent going to make or break the Jays farm but they were still top 20 guys in what almost everyone labelled a stacked farm. Fun little tidbit but all of Comer, Musgrove, WOJ and Perez were ranked ahead of Sierra on mostly all top 30 lists I saw.

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Old
08-17-2012, 11:33 AM
  #984
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Perez had no future here because we already have JPA, TDA, and Jimenez. Perez was redundant and irrelevant to us.

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08-17-2012, 11:35 AM
  #985
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Originally Posted by weems View Post
Regardless of the quality of there system, they got basically 4 top 15 ranked guys for JA frickin Happ (who was pretty brutal for them) Brandon Lyon whos a free agent and would have certainly bolted and a project reliever in Carpenter. That team is rebuilding and they really didnt give up anything thats apart of that team going forward then potentially Carpenter. I never said these were stud prospects but all of Comer, Musgrove, WOJ and Perez were/are solid prospects and its just funny seeing people trying to rip them apart now that they've been traded. They also did a good thing and pushed both WOJ and Perez up a level higher and both are actually doing well. These guys arent going to make or break the Jays farm but they were still top 20 guys in what almost everyone labelled a stacked farm. Fun little tidbit but all of Comer, Musgrove, WOJ and Perez were ranked ahead of Sierra on mostly all top 30 lists I saw.
Let's be honest, what does where a prospect ranks really matters? Just because a guy is top 10 in a ****** system doesn't mean a thing. And sure, they were ranked ahead of him, based on previous info. It doesn't matter, if he becomes an MLB contributor then he's more valuable...

Seriously, I don't know why this is still being discussed, it's not the greatest trade ever, but it's certainly not as bad as so many are making it seem, nor is the Snider trade - I mean, do people really think AA just went and said give me a relief arm and I'll give you Snider? He obviously shopped him, quietly and outside of the media's hearing range, and nobody offered anything better.

People just want to fit their agendas anyway they can.

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08-17-2012, 11:37 AM
  #986
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Perez had no future here because we already have JPA, TDA, and Jimenez. Perez was redundant and irrelevant to us.
So what?
He could have been used in another deal. He could have continued to progress and build value (heck HOU moved him up to high A ball right away). Just because we have alot of good catchers doesnt mean he should be thrown away and holds no value. You also said Yasmani Grandal made no sense to draft because we already had d'Arnaud.

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08-17-2012, 11:39 AM
  #987
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Let's be honest, what does where a prospect ranks really matters? Just because a guy is top 10 in a ****** system doesn't mean a thing. And sure, they were ranked ahead of him, based on previous info. It doesn't matter, if he becomes an MLB contributor then he's more valuable...

Seriously, I don't know why this is still being discussed, it's not the greatest trade ever, but it's certainly not as bad as so many are making it seem, nor is the Snider trade - I mean, do people really think AA just went and said give me a relief arm and I'll give you Snider? He obviously shopped him, quietly and outside of the media's hearing range, and nobody offered anything better.

People just want to fit their agendas anyway they can.
Fit a agenda?
Dude I'm a huge AA fan and have been onboard with mostly everything he's done.

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Old
08-17-2012, 11:52 AM
  #988
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Originally Posted by weems View Post
So what?
He could have been used in another deal. He could have continued to progress and build value (heck HOU moved him up to high A ball right away). Just because we have alot of good catchers doesnt mean he should be thrown away and holds no value. You also said Yasmani Grandal made no sense to draft because we already had d'Arnaud.
I'm pretty sure the Reds would much rather have drafted Sale and kept the extra pieces they had to trade off along with Grandal to acquire Mat Latos.

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08-17-2012, 11:56 AM
  #989
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I'm pretty sure the Reds would much rather have drafted Sale and kept the extra pieces they had to trade off along with Grandal to acquire Mat Latos.
So what would have been so awful having both Grandal and d'Arnaud in our system?
We could of used one of them this upcoming offseason to center a trade for a stud. This is why you always draft the BPA instead of need.

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08-17-2012, 12:01 PM
  #990
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People have problem with the trade because we gave up a few top 20 prospects and got mediocore players.

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08-17-2012, 12:43 PM
  #991
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If Farrell wants to leave, I certainly wont be sad to see him go. He hasn't made any sort of impact here for me to want him to stay.

I'd love to get a guy like Terry Francona. His WS experience will help a young squad like our's.
If Boston wants him so bad, they can have him. I am not blaming anything on him he just has not really impressed me. Letting him go this off season would be a little unfair, though, but AA has to make a decision on whether he wants John here for the long haul or not. It wouldn't be a huge deal if Farrell went in to next season without a contract for 2014 but in my mind AA has to make a decision in the winter whether to extend him or let him go.


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08-17-2012, 12:48 PM
  #992
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how long is bautista going to sit out with his tender wrist? seriously, how soft are these guys? very little drive or desire to get back in there and help the team.

they could really learn something from hockey players. or the women's bronze medal soccer team. those girls played hurt.

in baseball, you're not expected to play through any discomfort whatsoever.
People talking out of their ass when they don't have a clue about the injuries is really amusing.

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08-17-2012, 01:01 PM
  #993
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So what?
He could have been used in another deal. He could have continued to progress and build value (heck HOU moved him up to high A ball right away). Just because we have alot of good catchers doesnt mean he should be thrown away and holds no value. You also said Yasmani Grandal made no sense to draft because we already had d'Arnaud.
You're saying thrown away but the trade was obviously a trade to help out now. It didn't cost alot and was a move to help the pitching this year. Unfortunately, the offence starting getting hurt too and the Jays couldn't keep up.

AA said he was willing to make a trade to help the team now as long as the trade was decent value.

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08-17-2012, 01:08 PM
  #994
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how long is bautista going to sit out with his tender wrist? seriously, how soft are these guys? very little drive or desire to get back in there and help the team.

they could really learn something from hockey players. or the women's bronze medal soccer team. those girls played hurt.

in baseball, you're not expected to play through any discomfort whatsoever.
Do you mind sharing Bautista's medical reports with us?

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08-17-2012, 01:20 PM
  #995
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People talking out of their ass when they don't have a clue about the injuries is really amusing.
I saw that guy's post and was almost glad that nobody responded to him. Now that you have, I'll address it too.

Quote:
how long is bautista going to sit out with his tender wrist? seriously, how soft are these guys? very little drive or desire to get back in there and help the team.

they could really learn something from hockey players. or the women's bronze medal soccer team. those girls played hurt.

in baseball, you're not expected to play through any discomfort whatsoever.
Hard to pick a point to START. In no particular order:

1) It is generally not the player's decision whether or not they play. It's the training staffs' JOB to determine whether the player should take the field or not, and these medical professionals have determined it's not good for Bautista to play.


2) A wrist injuries are VERY delicate. I had a scaphoid fracture once, and it took 5 months in a hard cast plus 2 months in a brace before it healed. Even after 7 months it was tender enough that I couldn't lift weights or play sports for nearly half a year anything without aggravating the injury. There are WAY too many delicate bones in the wrist/hand to simply "play through the pain".


3) Majority of hockey injuries involve large joints like shoulders or hips. In other words they are heavily muscled areas with large bones. While no doubt they are painful, they are large bones and they have much larger structural strength. Baseball injuries are usually ACL/MCL, and small bone fractures like wrists and feet. Small tendons and small bones are much weaker structurally, but are no less critical to proper physical performance.


4) The baseball season is 162 games, a shade under TWICE as many games as hockey and basketball. For that type of schedule a cliche has been born about baseball: "it's not a sprint, it's a marathon". Jose Bautista isn't running the 200m...he's running the 10K. The idea of playing through an injury isn't feasible when you rarely have even a single day off to nurse yourself back to full health.
The point about the women's soccer team is irrelevant because they were playing in the Olympics, which is a do-or-die scenario for them. A mid-season series against the Chicago White Sox with little (if any) playoff ramifications is NOT a do-or-die scenario, and cannot be reasonably compared.


5) Bautista is making $14M (on what's considered a team-friendly deal). That is a VERY huge investment for the Blue Jays. In comparison, the highest paid NHL player makes $9.5M. Consider that Sydney Crosby (@ $8.7M) has spent A LOT of time on the DL recently. Now multiply the Crosby contract by 150%. It is simply NOT a valuable use of investment to allow Bautista to play.


6) Don Cherry never played 162 games a year + Spring training + Playoffs. Please leave that mentality out of this thread.

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08-17-2012, 01:22 PM
  #996
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Sorry to move on from this love fest guys, but I'm just wondering on what free agent arms AA will pursue this offseason.

Could Shaun Marcum be a guy that gets brought back?

There's a pretty good list of #2 starters and beyond (obviously wouldn't let a #1 walk).

- Joe Saunders - pitch over 200 innings
- Edwin Jackson - doubtful because of $, but perfect to fit in age group
- Dan Haren - to me the perfect pick-up. solid veteran that could be had if the Angels pick up part of the club option.
- Joe Blanton - always been a fan of Blanton. think he would be a good #3 on this roster.

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08-17-2012, 01:37 PM
  #997
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No, it doesn't mean just stop-gap guys for next year. It means that the kids will be ready to maybe pitch in the majors, but aren't likely to make an impact. If you can get a guy who has a few years of control and it makes sense, you do it, and if the prospects create a problem later on, you can move pieces around and fill other holes...

In all likelihood, the Lansing guys will just be getting their first taste of Double-A in 2014 anyways, and you can't rule it out, but I think their ETA is more likely 2015, especially if the road from New Hampshire goes through Buffalo...
Add a couple of years for Tommy John surgery for most of them. Sorry that's just the way it is.

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08-17-2012, 01:41 PM
  #998
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Sorry to move on from this love fest guys, but I'm just wondering on what free agent arms AA will pursue this offseason.

Could Shaun Marcum be a guy that gets brought back?

There's a pretty good list of #2 starters and beyond (obviously wouldn't let a #1 walk).

- Joe Saunders - pitch over 200 innings
- Edwin Jackson - doubtful because of $, but perfect to fit in age group
- Dan Haren - to me the perfect pick-up. solid veteran that could be had if the Angels pick up part of the club option.
- Joe Blanton - always been a fan of Blanton. think he would be a good #3 on this roster.
J.A. Happ can produce a similar WAR to Joe Saunders, so I don't really see him being signed. I've been on the Haren bandwagon for a bit. All depends on if he's qualified or not by the Angels. Edwin Jackson arguably should have been signed this past off-season, but the Boras factor may have been a reason why he wasn't pursued. Now that he's switched agents, we'll see if things have changed.

Overall, there's a good amount of #3 guys available. I think AA will sign one who fits in with the team makeup (Marcum, McCarthy, Floyd, etc.) and make a trade for another controllable #3. Max Sherzer is a name that comes to mind. Maybe not him, but a guy similar in age, career performance, potential and control.


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08-17-2012, 01:50 PM
  #999
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Curious to hear what folk around here think about Luke Hochevar being a project pickup, similar to what has been done with Brandon Morrow (and perhaps whats trying to be accomplished with Brad Lincoln). Former high pick, top prospect, who has not broken out.

He's averaged a WAR around 2 for his time in the majors, and has consistently been better than his ERA would suggest (when looking at FIP and xFIP).

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08-17-2012, 02:15 PM
  #1000
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Really guys? It's being suggested Farrell is the problem and should go? Wow.....
Farrell isn't THE problem but IMO he is one.

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