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Old
09-12-2012, 12:53 PM
  #376
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Originally Posted by Bender View Post
To be perfectly honest, how anyone can be unhappy with what we've done with our team since 2009 is absolutely beyond me.
TBH I think on my end at least some of it is just the fatigue of having to rebuild after already suffering through the much worse FG era. And at times things have been frustrating during the rebuild (trading liles, coaching decisions, lack of veteran mentorship). Overall though I think they have a clear plan and have done a great job of executing it so far

------

Anyways we know from the captaincy issue that Hejduk doesn't believe that he will be playing a top 6 role. We know that both PAP and Hejduk play the right side... where does that leave the line combos? Who will Duchene play with? Who moves to a different spot out of last years Landy-ROR-Downie and Mcginn-Staz-Jones lines?


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Old
09-12-2012, 12:58 PM
  #377
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Did the Avs really develop him though? As with many Avs prospects, their offensive skills seem to develop OK, and that was the case with Shattenkirk. However, his defense was almost unbelievably bad when he was with Colorado. That corrected itself within one season in the StL organization.

The same could be said for Boychuk. He muddled around in Colorado's organization for years, went to Boston's organization for one year, at which point he was a regular NHL player playing solid defense.

The Avs drafted OK here, but couldn't develop the players. In fact, I'd put out a call for anyone to identify one single defenseman who the Avs both drafted and developed into a good defender.

-AB
I think it's a bit misleading. It's not like the Avs have put a HUGE focus on drafting d-men and failed. In the past 12 years (up to and including the 2000 draft) the Avs have drafted :

107 players in total
60 forwards (56.0%)
34 d-men (31.8%)
13 goalies (12.2%)

Of those 34 d-men, only TWO were drafted in the first round (Siemens #11 and Shattenkirk #14) and the only others to even crack the top 50 is Cohen at #45, Elliott at #49 and Gaunce at #50. So of those 5 players, Cohen is already gone and the jury is still out on Elliott, Siemens and Gaunce, I'd say that not bad.

It's not like the Avs are using up all their top picks and trying desperately to draft and develop d-men and are failing hard. They are taking chances on guys in the later rounds and it's not going their way. Luckily, they've done well with forwards in the later rounds...we should be thankful for that.

When you compare the Avs overall drafting to say...the flames, who haven't drafted and developed a top 6 forward in 20 years (1992 -Cory Stillman) and only have Dion Phaneuf, Derek Morris and Toni Lydman to show for their drafting for the last 20 YEARS, I'd say I'm not too worried about it.

At least the Avs are able to make moves to address holes. All the flames can do is overpay for average players like wideman and hand out free no-trade clauses like candy on halloween.


Avs
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/t...r00005307.html

flames
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/t...r00005090.html

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09-12-2012, 01:01 PM
  #378
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Originally Posted by Nihiliste View Post
TBH I think on my end at least some of it is just the fatigue of having to rebuild after already suffering through the much worse FG era. And at times things have been frustrating during the rebuild (trading liles, coaching decisions, lack of veteran mentorship). Overall though I think they have a clear plan and have done a great job of executing it so far

------

Anyways we know from the captaincy issue that Hejduk doesn't believe that he will be playing a top 6 role. We know that both PAP and Hejduk play the right side... where does that leave the line combos? Who will Duchene play with? Who moves to a different spot out of last years Landy-ROR-Downie and Mcginn-Staz-Jones lines?
Downie plays with Duchene and PAP, Hejduk with Landeskog and O'Reilly.

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09-12-2012, 01:03 PM
  #379
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I agree with your premise Bender but why compare our drafting to possibly the worst drafting team in the NHL?
If we want to be successful we need to compare positively to the contenders of the league.

I was actually going through and making comparisons of drafting and moves made in our rebuild so far to the beginnings of the Kings and Blues rebuilds. I might make a thread about it later, but I believe that we're in the same ballpark and in quite a good position going forward to take the necessary steps forward over the next couple years


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Downie plays with Duchene and PAP, Hejduk with Landeskog and O'Reilly.
That's what I had originally assumed, but Lando and O'reilly based on quality of competition is our first line. Hejduk doesn't seem to believe that he'll be playing that big of a role and I'm not sure that he should be.

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09-12-2012, 01:04 PM
  #380
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And re: the Flames drafting... Bender isn't kidding when he says the Flames are rotten at drafting: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1258673

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09-12-2012, 01:08 PM
  #381
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Originally Posted by Ceremony View Post
Downie plays with Duchene and PAP, Hejduk with Landeskog and O'Reilly.
Downie is also right-handed but I wouldn't be surprised to see him of PAP play their off-wing.

I do personally believe that Sacco will stick with the McGinn-Staz-Jones line as well as the Lando-RoR-Downie line until it's stops working. That's Sacco all over.

So to start the season, PAP will probably play his off-wing and I don't think he'll miss a beat, personally.

Just my opinion.

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09-12-2012, 01:29 PM
  #382
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Shattenkirk was great all season in St. Louis. He played pretty well there after the deadline and had one summer and then played great defense all year. I attribute more of his development to the 4 years of consistent improvement he showed in the Avalanche system rather than the few months he spent in St. Louis before taking the next step.
Shattenkirk was absolutely horrid defensively for the Avs. Simply terrible. One year later after moving to StL, he was not. Respectfully, I don't see how one could hand that success to the Avs.

-AB

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09-12-2012, 01:35 PM
  #383
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I agree with your premise Bender but why compare our drafting to possibly the worst drafting team in the NHL?
If we want to be successful we need to compare positively to the contenders of the league.
I want to highlight that the Avs are one of the better drafting teams in the NHL and that it's something that we should be happy about. Instead of the constant complaining or negativity for no apparent reason.

I want to highlight that while we may have issues drafting and developing d-men, it's not like we're not acquiring strength in other areas unlike a lot of other poor drafting teams.

I also want to address Drizzt when he says stuff like "there are 29 other teams in the league trying to build a winner" etc... Teams don't all draft the same way and in that sense, it's not an even playing field.

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09-12-2012, 01:38 PM
  #384
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Originally Posted by Ceremony View Post
And re: the Flames drafting... Bender isn't kidding when he says the Flames are rotten at drafting: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1258673
I would probably put Tim Thomas in net instead of Budaj and Aebischer though.

Ah I see someone added it.

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09-12-2012, 01:40 PM
  #385
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Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
Shattenkirk was absolutely horrid defensively for the Avs. Simply terrible. One year later after moving to StL, he was not. Respectfully, I don't see how one could hand that success to the Avs.

-AB
I don't know if I'd say he was absolutely horrid. He wasn't that good, but I don't think he was a complete sieve. Obviously he was older at the time, but he was better defensively than either Elliott or Barrie were last year. Better than Cumiskey ever looked IMO.

I think Shattenkirk was sheltered away from tough match ups with the Avs, and progressed his D game a little bit towards the end of his stint. He is still sheltered with the Blues, but it seems he has continued to progress defensively. I think his weaknesses would still get exposed if matched up against the guys EJ faces on a nightly basis though.

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09-12-2012, 01:48 PM
  #386
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I'm not sure where you're getting 4 years from since the rebuild essentially began with the 2009 draft, the trading of Ryan Smyth and Sakic's subsequent retirement. It's been THREE years not 4.
My thought process there is that the Avs have 7 veteran defensemen signed, and I don't see any of the 4 young guys getting a lot of NHL ice time this season. Hence, the 4th season of the rebuild may very well go by without us seeing too much of the 4 young guys. Perhaps not, but short of major injury, I think it's certainly quite possible. So, I was projecting to May 2013. Sorry if I made that confusing.

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To be perfectly honest, how anyone can be unhappy with what we've done with our team since 2009 is absolutely beyond me.
My motivation to contribute to this thread didn't come from an unhappiness with the rebuild, but rather came more from peoples' insistence that this defense is decent when compared to other NHL teams. It isn't, IMO.

I will confess that my confidence that the Avs can develop defensive defensemen prospects Siemens and/or Gaunce into good NHL defenders (or my confidence that the Avs can develop offensive defensemen prospects Elliott and Barrie into acceptable NHL defenders) isn't high, because the Avs have not been able to do so in the past. In 18 years of drafts since the Avs came to Colorado, who do you think is the best example of a defenseman they drafted and developed into a solid NHL defender? You know who I think it is? JM Liles. Or maybe Martin Skoula. Ouch. Not glowing examples of good NHL defenders - and we had to go back at least 13 drafts to come up with even those lousy examples. In 18 years, is it out of the realm of possibility that the Avs could draft and develop ONE blueline guy into a quality NHL defender? With that almost two decade record, where does the confidence come from?

This is why I don't necessarily share the confidence a lot of people have in here that the 4 young guys are going to develop into quality NHL defensive players. If they do, that's great. But if they do, it'll require the Avs organization to have lost its long-held virginity in this respect.

-AB


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09-12-2012, 01:53 PM
  #387
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I don't know if I'd say he was absolutely horrid. He wasn't that good, but I don't think he was a complete sieve. Obviously he was older at the time, but he was better defensively than either Elliott or Barrie were last year. Better than Cumiskey ever looked IMO.

I think Shattenkirk was sheltered away from tough match ups with the Avs, and progressed his D game a little bit towards the end of his stint. He is still sheltered with the Blues, but it seems he has continued to progress defensively. I think his weaknesses would still get exposed if matched up against the guys EJ faces on a nightly basis though.
I'll respectfully and strongly disagree. I had season tickets behind the Avs 1st/3rd period goal, and it was amazing how soft and out of position Shattenkirk was. He was utterly terrible, especially right around his own net.

The comparisons to Elliott and Cumiskey are valid, IMO - but in that case we're comparing him to two players who were not playing regular NHL hockey late last Winter or Spring. I thought Barrie was better defensively at the end of last season than Shattenkirk was at the end of his season with Colorado.

But Shattenkirk with StL was worlds better than any of those three, and worlds better than he was the year prior.

-AB


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09-12-2012, 01:59 PM
  #388
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I want to highlight that the Avs are one of the better drafting teams in the NHL and that it's something that we should be happy about. Instead of the constant complaining or negativity for no apparent reason.
I'm hoping you aren't referring to my recent posts. I've given my reasoning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bender View Post
I want to highlight that while we may have issues drafting and developing d-men, it's not like we're not acquiring strength in other areas unlike a lot of other poor drafting teams.
I suppose my concern is more around the defensive development of the guys drafted, not necessarily the drafting itself.

-AB

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09-12-2012, 02:03 PM
  #389
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Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
Shattenkirk was absolutely horrid defensively for the Avs. Simply terrible. One year later after moving to StL, he was not. Respectfully, I don't see how one could hand that success to the Avs.

-AB
I think it would come as a shock to absolutely no one that Shattenkirk got better coaching in Saint Lou, and played better under that regime. That said, I don't think anyone will ever mistake him for a defensive stalwart.

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09-12-2012, 02:10 PM
  #390
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I think it's a bit misleading. It's not like the Avs have put a HUGE focus on drafting d-men and failed. In the past 12 years (up to and including the 2000 draft) the Avs have drafted :

107 players in total
60 forwards (56.0%)
34 d-men (31.8%)
13 goalies (12.2%)

Of those 34 d-men, only TWO were drafted in the first round (Siemens #11 and Shattenkirk #14) and the only others to even crack the top 50 is Cohen at #45, Elliott at #49 and Gaunce at #50. So of those 5 players, Cohen is already gone and the jury is still out on Elliott, Siemens and Gaunce, I'd say that not bad.

It's not like the Avs are using up all their top picks and trying desperately to draft and develop d-men and are failing hard. They are taking chances on guys in the later rounds and it's not going their way. Luckily, they've done well with forwards in the later rounds...we should be thankful for that.

When you compare the Avs overall drafting to say...the flames, who haven't drafted and developed a top 6 forward in 20 years (1992 -Cory Stillman) and only have Dion Phaneuf, Derek Morris and Toni Lydman to show for their drafting for the last 20 YEARS, I'd say I'm not too worried about it.

At least the Avs are able to make moves to address holes. All the flames can do is overpay for average players like wideman and hand out free no-trade clauses like candy on halloween.
That's a good assessment, but you're comparing the Avs drafting "success" with what is likely the worst drafting team in the NHL. This is like Obama supporters constantly comparing the Prez to George Bush. Can we aim a little higher?

But I'll repeat what I had in a previous post - while you stopped at 2000, I'll go all the way back to 1995: zero defensemen drafted and developed into good NHL defenders. Zero. If someone out there believes that JM Liles is a quality defensive player (which I don't), fine. Then one - one player in 18 years, Bender.

With that record, why the confidence that they'll be able to start doing it now? I almost wish there was a way that the Avs could "lend" a few of these young defensemen to Nashville's or Detroit's organization for two years, then get them back.

-AB

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09-12-2012, 02:20 PM
  #391
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Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
My thought process there is that the Avs have 7 veteran defensemen signed, and I don't see any of the 4 young guys getting a lot of NHL ice time this season. Hence, the 4th season of the rebuild may very well go by without us seeing too much of the 4 young guys. Perhaps not, but short of major injury, I think it's certainly quite possible. So, I was projecting to May 2013. Sorry if I made that confusing.



My motivation to contribute to this thread didn't come from an unhappiness with the rebuild, but rather came more from peoples' insistence that this defense is decent when compared to other NHL teams. It isn't, IMO.

I will confess that my confidence that the Avs can develop defensive defensemen prospects Siemens and/or Gaunce into good NHL defenders (or my confidence that the Avs can develop offensive defensemen prospects Elliott and Barrie into acceptable NHL defenders) isn't high, because the Avs have not been able to do so in the past. In 18 years of drafts since the Avs came to Colorado, who do you think is the best example of a defenseman they drafted and developed into a solid NHL defender? You know who I think it is? JM Liles. Or maybe Martin Skoula. Ouch. Not glowing examples of good NHL defenders - and we had to go back at least 13 drafts to come up with even those lousy examples. In 18 years, is it out of the realm of possibility that the Avs could draft and develop ONE blueline guy into a quality NHL defender? With that almost two decade record, where does the confidence come from?

This is why I don't necessarily share the confidence a lot of people have in here that the 4 young guys are going to develop into quality NHL defensive players. If they do, that's great. But if they do, it'll require the Avs organization to have lost its long-held virginity in this respect.

-AB
Because Calgary chose Regehr?

Again, I've given you the stats. If even 50% of their picks in the Top 50 would have been spent on d-men, I'd probably be a little more frustrated but that's not the case...not even close.


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I'm hoping you aren't referring to my recent posts. I've given my reasoning.



I suppose my concern is more around the defensive development of the guys drafted, not necessarily the drafting itself.

-AB
Not at all. I think we're basically saying the same thing. Personally, I'd rank the Avs defense at around #18 league wide at the most optimistic and around #24 on the other end of the spectrum. Somewhere around there.

I think these teams have a worst D group than the Avs:

- Columbus
- NY Islanders
- Calgary
- Dallas
- Edmonton

The following teams are around the same range as the Avs:
(or at least, it can be debated)

- Minnesota (yeah, they got Suter but beyond him, Tom Gilbert? Ouch) [soon to change though with Brodin and Dumba]
- Carolina (Faulk is up and coming though)
- Montreal (with Markov, they are a lot better but he's always injured)
- Toronto (Phaneuf, Liles had a rough 2nd half / Rielly is going to be awesome though)

That's the way I see it +/- a few spots. I don't think you can make a case that we're definitely top 15 going by what we've seen last season.

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09-12-2012, 02:39 PM
  #392
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Shattenkirk was absolutely horrid defensively for the Avs. Simply terrible. One year later after moving to StL, he was not. Respectfully, I don't see how one could hand that success to the Avs.

-AB
You keep acting like a year passed outside of the Avalanche system before Shattenkirk started playing well. In reality his rapid growth happened in the span of 2010-11.
2010-11 he played 10 games with LEM, 46 with the Avalanche, and 26 with the Blues. He improved throughout the year, and then one summer of training later he was playing great. He was playing well even under Davis Payne and then looked better still under Hitchcock's defensive system naturally.

No doubt he had better coaching in St. Louis but I feel like its a bit deceptive to keep saying "one year later".


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09-12-2012, 02:42 PM
  #393
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That's a good assessment, but you're comparing the Avs drafting "success" with what is likely the worst drafting team in the NHL. This is like Obama supporters constantly comparing the Prez to George Bush. Can we aim a little higher?

But I'll repeat what I had in a previous post - while you stopped at 2000, I'll go all the way back to 1995: zero defensemen drafted and developed into good NHL defenders. Zero. If someone out there believes that JM Liles is a quality defensive player (which I don't), fine. Then one - one player in 18 years, Bender.

With that record, why the confidence that they'll be able to start doing it now? I almost wish there was a way that the Avs could "lend" a few of these young defensemen to Nashville's or Detroit's organization for two years, then get them back.

-AB
I stopped in 2000 because it was a nice round number and didn't want to spend all day. Plus before that, we're entering the Dave Draper/Jim Hammett eras and while we got some young prospects most of them were dealt away.

I figured that our current top scouts (Pracey / Hepple) have been with the team for around that time and probably have had input since then. So it makes sense to measure it from then and onward. If you want to analyse picks like Grimes, Ratchuk, Belak and Kealty then be my guest but it's not the same people making the decisions now that it was then.

Besides, if I clearly understand what you're saying, then drafting is not the problem but development is? Wouldn't we then be seeing a long list of previous Avs draft picks making it to the NHL on other teams, later on in their careers like Boychuk has? As far as I can tell, he's the only one. He's the only one by a lot. There's a fair chunk of players that were 'left for dead' only to be picked up by other teams and gain a lot of success. Guys like Patrick Sharp, Martin St-Louis and Danny Briere were all on waivers at some point and got chances elsewhere. Every team in the league has players they wished they could go back and do things differently with.

I'm not really sure what you're trying to convince me of? That the Avs haven't developed a solid defensive d-man since Adam Foote? Like I said, Regehr was traded away but it's not like there's a long list of 1st round, high picks D-men that were flops either in the past 12 years.

Also, don't forget we have Gus Young.

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09-12-2012, 03:13 PM
  #394
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i think Shattenkirk was more of a maturation of his skills as he got more accustomed to the NHL game as a whole.
the Blues coaching staff likely helped but until the game slows down and you're able to play at a high level the player normally doesn't improve.

that said, we're better served with the after effects of the trade than the before.
we got EJ, Jay Mac & Siemens. we gave up Shattenkirk and Stewart.
that allowed us to draft Lando and basically upgrade at power forward and we netted a prospect in Siemens who has the potential of a top 4 pairing D man.

now we have to draft and develop our picks at a high level, which is something that was missing for a long time. we've drafted some solid guys, but no real superstars in quite some time, they've either started out strong and tapered off or had high expectations that they didn't live up to.

the Avs never had to rely on the farm(outside of trades) in the era before the cap. so they never had to truly develop guys on a consistent basis because they'd just go out and sign who they needed.

player evaluations,drafting and development on a high level is fairly new to them right now and they've struggled with it in the past.
Tanguay,Hejduk,Drury were the top ones in the Avs era & granted they normally drafted really low.
Duchene,Lando & Siemens are the guys with franchise potential that we need to continue to develop mold into great players who reach their potential.

the team is on the right path, but it's hard being patient after the success the Avs have had in the past and the horror of the FG era.

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09-12-2012, 03:27 PM
  #395
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i think Shattenkirk was more of a maturation of his skills as he got more accustomed to the NHL game as a whole..
Yes this.

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09-12-2012, 05:30 PM
  #396
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Shattenkirk isn't great defensively, he's just playing Hitchcock hockey.

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09-12-2012, 06:34 PM
  #397
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Thanks for the opinion's guys. In a weird kind of way, I was almost hoping to be convinced otherwise regarding our defense, but it has almost solidified my opinion on it.

We have made some gross mistakes drafting, trading & otherwise in defense, to be where we are now to be honest. I honestly think it will take some time to weed ourselves out of where we are at present.

+ Releasing Liles for a bag of pucks is a mistake. I'm sorry.
+ I wouldn't trade Shattenkirk for Johnson straight up.
+ Leopold for Nycholat/Wilson/2nd after what we gave up to get him was a mistake.
+ I have no doubts Stewart would have excelled if he remained with us
+ We still could have acquired O'Brien
+ The trade for Hunwick was terrible, and I thought Cohen showed plenty when give an opportunity
+ Should have kept Hannan - we gave him away for nothing considering where Flash is now

Look, I know all these types of things are hindsight (and I know reasons, like Leopold always being injured) etc.

I also understand we wouldn't have Siemens coming though, and we would have drafted at different times, but I still believe we may have had a chance for Douggie Hamilton, or Adam Larsson or something if some of the above didn't happen. Who know's? Opportunities often present.

If I'm Sydney Crosby, flying in to Denver to play Colorado, and I know one of maybe Zanon or Hunwick will be paired with Johnson to play against me, and Avs then have a support cast of O'Brien, Wilson, O'Byrne and Hejda, I'm licking my lips, and playing VERY confidently.

How that helps our young guys develop into the stars most of you are telling me they will, is beyond me.

People may argue there are three or four worse defenses as listed above than ours. I don't think of that as a compliment to our defense. It's supporting my theory that we have a below average defensive unit, opposition offenses will look forward to playing against.

That then makes me feel for Varlamov and Giguere, who deserve much better, as they have quality written all over them.

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09-12-2012, 07:28 PM
  #398
CalderKing21
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we had to get worse before we got better. were some of the moves questionable at the time and in hindsight proven to be bad value? yes, but i don't value Shattenkirk over EJ.
we needed to get bigger, more physical and better as a team. we did that in swapping Kevin for EJ.

we have similar types of D men in Barrie and Elliot. more point forward, potential power play oriented defense men.
if Siemens reaches his potential then he and EJ would be a sick top 2 pairing on D. then you'd still have Elliot and Barrie to play in the top 4-6 and solidify the D.

without making a move for EJ i don't think all the other moves come into play and allow us to get better. because we'd be holding out hope that someone stepped up or rebounded into what we were hoping for.

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09-12-2012, 07:46 PM
  #399
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CalderKing21 View Post
we had to get worse before we got better. were some of the moves questionable at the time and in hindsight proven to be bad value? yes, but i don't value Shattenkirk over EJ.
we needed to get bigger, more physical and better as a team. we did that in swapping Kevin for EJ.

we have similar types of D men in Barrie and Elliot. more point forward, potential power play oriented defense men.
if Siemens reaches his potential then he and EJ would be a sick top 2 pairing on D. then you'd still have Elliot and Barrie to play in the top 4-6 and solidify the D.

without making a move for EJ i don't think all the other moves come into play and allow us to get better. because we'd be holding out hope that someone stepped up or rebounded into what we were hoping for.
EJ has regressed the last three years statistically. What makes anyone so sure he will turn it all around?

I personally thought Bouwmeester at one point was going to be one of the best defensemen in the entire NHL, and look what happened to HIM in a different market in Calgary.

People have a go at me, because I can't, don't and won't "project" where a player or the team will be in a few years. I just won't, because so much can happen in 12 months for a hockey team - see this years Blues, and Panthers as examples.

People telling me we difinitively are "building" into this fantastic contender is drawing a long bow in my opinion.

EJ needs to focus on becoming an NHL top 4 defensemen, before he's considered a true number one D-man. Yeah, in Colorado he's "our" true number one, but that isn't saying much to be fair - which is my entire point in this thread.

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09-12-2012, 07:49 PM
  #400
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drizzt1 View Post
Thanks for the opinion's guys. In a weird kind of way, I was almost hoping to be convinced otherwise regarding our defense, but it has almost solidified my opinion on it.

We have made some gross mistakes drafting, trading & otherwise in defense, to be where we are now to be honest. I honestly think it will take some time to weed ourselves out of where we are at present.

+ Releasing Liles for a bag of pucks is a mistake. I'm sorry.
+ I wouldn't trade Shattenkirk for Johnson straight up.
+ Leopold for Nycholat/Wilson/2nd after what we gave up to get him was a mistake.
+ I have no doubts Stewart would have excelled if he remained with us
+ We still could have acquired O'Brien
+ The trade for Hunwick was terrible, and I thought Cohen showed plenty when give an opportunity
+ Should have kept Hannan - we gave him away for nothing considering where Flash is now
Liles trade I agree was a mistake.

Original Leopold trade was a mistake but Elliot and Wilson for a mediocre and oft-injured Leopold was good value. That was a different management though.

TPS gave us insight into the fact that Stewart was moved partially for locker room issues, aside from the value of the trade. IDK about you but much like Wolski, I think there's something to the fact that he quickly found himself in the doghouse on a new team. I know you'll tell me that this is old knews and you know the reasons but I really don't think it counts as a mistake.

Hunwick sucks yes but Cohen doesn't appear to be amounting to much over in Providence either.

Is Hannan at his current level really an upgrade over the mediocre dmen we have now? He's not what he once was.


Quote:
I also understand we wouldn't have Siemens coming though, and we would have drafted at different times, but I still believe we may have had a chance for Douggie Hamilton, or Adam Larsson or something if some of the above didn't happen. Who know's? Opportunities often present.
What says that Hamilton or Larsson are going to be better than EJ? They're certainly not going to get there sooner and the timeline seems to be one of your complaints.

Quote:
How that helps our young guys develop into the stars most of you are telling me they will, is beyond me.
Not sure who's trying to guarantee that all of these guys are going to be stars? We think there's a good chance that they'll perform better and more consistently as they get more experience. Are you trying to tell me that countless prospects haven't developed into great players on bad teams in the past, or helped turn professional sports franchises around time and time again? Management isn't trying anything new or unconventional here.

Quote:
People may argue there are three or four worse defenses as listed above than ours. I don't think of that as a compliment to our defense. It's supporting my theory that we have a below average defensive unit, opposition offenses will look forward to playing against.
I'm not sure that anyone has said anything different man (other than the 15th in GA thing someone mentioned which isn't really an accurate measure of the talent of our D corps). You're right that this is going to take time. Probably around 3 years. That's pretty much par for the course for most rebuilds, if they're not even longer (the Kings, the Nords, the Wings, the Bruins, etc). I think most of us are on the same page about that, I just don't understand why it makes sense to be so negative about everything. We all seem to be assessing the situation the same way, its just a matter of choosing to be cautiously optimistic or choosing to be unrealistically pessimistic.

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