HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk
Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk Trade rumors, transactions, and free agent talk. Rumors must contain the word RUMOR in post title. Proposals must contain the word PROPOSAL in post title.

Van - Fla

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
08-03-2012, 02:34 PM
  #76
arsmaster
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 16,324
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
Umm what?
Bjugstad had a decent freshman year at Minnesota and a very good one in his sophmore year.

He had 6 points at the world juniors - 5 of them game in one mean nothing game where the US beat Latvia 12-2.

Bjugstad had two 2nd assists and a hattrick, the rest of the tournament he had 1 goal, in what ~5 or 6 games.

He's becoming Cody Hodgson like overrated on this board.

The only reason he's thought of more highly than Gaunce is because he's two years ahead...comparing there most recent years isn't an accurate depiction of what they'll be at the NHL level (18 year old vs 20 year old is a big jump).

arsmaster is online now  
Old
08-03-2012, 02:35 PM
  #77
MillarWithASave
HUBY DOOBY SHUTUP
 
MillarWithASave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Melbourne, FL
Country: United States
Posts: 4,121
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by King Canuck View Post
Good to see Florida has so many GM's. Please don't tell me your not trading X player for Luongo when you have no inside info on the Panthers. I also read a hilarious comment of Theodore only being a slight downgrade on Luongo, thanks for the laugh man.
You are the first person to ever write this post. Congratulations.

MillarWithASave is offline  
Old
08-03-2012, 03:42 PM
  #78
pb1300
BLEED RED
 
pb1300's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Aiyio, Greece
Country: Greece
Posts: 10,598
vCash: 500
Send a message via Yahoo to pb1300
Quote:
Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
He's becoming Cody Hodgson like overrated on this board.
He is not becoming overrated on these boards, you Canuck fans didnt even want him before Gillis reportedly asked for him. Us Panther fans know exactly who he is, what type of skill he has, and how he still is a project, but since we are not interested in trading him for Luongo, people assume that we are overrating him. I never have read so much crap come from one fan base about another fan bases opinion on a trade idea. Because we want to keep our top prospects, and not trade them for Luongo, doesnt automatically mean we are overrating them. I like Luongo, always have, and would want him back in Florida, but I do not want to give up any of our top prospects for it. Why is so difficult for people to understand that most Panther fans feel the same way? Ridiculous!

Quote:
The only reason he's thought of more highly than Gaunce is because he's two years ahead...comparing there most recent years isn't an accurate depiction of what they'll be at the NHL level (18 year old vs 20 year old is a big jump).
I dont think so. Bjugstad is a better offensive player IMO, plays his own zone just as good as Gaunce, and is a beast along the boards. Out of the two, Bjugstad has the higher upside, and once he fills out that 6-6 frame, he is going to be a pain to play against. Yeah, its hard to compare them to each other because of age difference, but while I think both, at worse, make it as checking line centers, only one seems to have the ceiling of a top line centerman.

pb1300 is online now  
Old
08-03-2012, 03:51 PM
  #79
LickTheEnvelope
6th Overall Blows
 
LickTheEnvelope's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 27,726
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by pb1300 View Post
He is not becoming overrated on these boards, you Canuck fans didnt even want him before Gillis reportedly asked for him. Us Panther fans know exactly who he is, what type of skill he has, and how he still is a project, but since we are not interested in trading him for Luongo, people assume that we are overrating him. I never have read so much crap come from one fan base about another fan bases opinion on a trade idea. Because we want to keep our top prospects, and not trade them for Luongo, doesnt automatically mean we are overrating them. I like Luongo, always have, and would want him back in Florida, but I do not want to give up any of our top prospects for it. Why is so difficult for people to understand that most Panther fans feel the same way? Ridiculous!

I dont think so. Bjugstad is a better offensive player IMO, plays his own zone just as good as Gaunce, and is a beast along the boards. Out of the two, Bjugstad has the higher upside, and once he fills out that 6-6 frame, he is going to be a pain to play against. Yeah, its hard to compare them to each other because of age difference, but while I think both, at worse, make it as checking line centers, only one seems to have the ceiling of a top line centerman.
Problem is what one person considers a 'top prospect'...

The lists i've seen very from what one Panthers fan to another considers a 'top prospect'... i've seen lists 12 deep of guys Panthers fans say they would never trade that aren't in the NHL yet.

Also lots of Canucks fans have made lots of alternative offers on a Luongo deal.

Quote:
I never have read so much crap come from one fan base about another fan bases opinion on a trade idea.
Must not read much. 4-5 people/posts expressing that Bjugstad is being over-rated? Pfff you should see what Canuck fans went through with Hodgson or even Schneider.

LickTheEnvelope is offline  
Old
08-03-2012, 04:02 PM
  #80
arsmaster
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 16,324
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by pb1300 View Post
He is not becoming overrated on these boards, you Canuck fans didnt even want him before Gillis reportedly asked for him. Us Panther fans know exactly who he is, what type of skill he has, and how he still is a project, but since we are not interested in trading him for Luongo, people assume that we are overrating him. I never have read so much crap come from one fan base about another fan bases opinion on a trade idea. Because we want to keep our top prospects, and not trade them for Luongo, doesnt automatically mean we are overrating them. I like Luongo, always have, and would want him back in Florida, but I do not want to give up any of our top prospects for it. Why is so difficult for people to understand that most Panther fans feel the same way? Ridiculous!



I dont think so. Bjugstad is a better offensive player IMO, plays his own zone just as good as Gaunce, and is a beast along the boards. Out of the two, Bjugstad has the higher upside, and once he fills out that 6-6 frame, he is going to be a pain to play against. Yeah, its hard to compare them to each other because of age difference, but while I think both, at worse, make it as checking line centers, only one seems to have the ceiling of a top line centerman.
Paint the whole fanbase much?

I know who Bjugstad is.

You can look at my post history, I suggested Bjugstad almost as soon as Luongo made it known, he'd waive his NTC if asked.

He's becoming overrated, you're acting like he's already a top centerman, that's the problem...you're also suggesting he's much better than another prospect with a lot of the same characteristics, albeit not 6'6".

Bjugstad had 1 goal and 0 assissts in 5 games, outside the mean nothing Latvia 12-2 game. Wouldn't this #1C be able to dominate his age group more, if he was a sure fire NHL 1st line center?

I like him as a prospect, but he's just a prospect...I'm fine with Florida fans not wanting to move him, doesn't mean he isn't getting overrated - we see it happen all the time (I recall reading similar things about Shawn Matthias a few years back).

Comparing Bjugstad and Gaunce at this time is unfair to both players, I just don't think it's as easy to call Bjugstad the player with the better upside...

arsmaster is online now  
Old
08-03-2012, 04:05 PM
  #81
DJOpus
Registered User
 
DJOpus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,749
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by LickTheEnvelope View Post
Must not read much. 4-5 people/posts expressing that Bjugstad is being over-rated? Pfff you should see what Canuck fans went through with Hodgson or even Schneider.
Hell, just for two players from one fan base:

Sajan >>> Kesler and Stralman >>> Edler?

DJOpus is offline  
Old
08-03-2012, 04:20 PM
  #82
pb1300
BLEED RED
 
pb1300's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Aiyio, Greece
Country: Greece
Posts: 10,598
vCash: 500
Send a message via Yahoo to pb1300
Quote:
Originally Posted by LickTheEnvelope View Post
Problem is what one person considers a 'top prospect'...

The lists i've seen very from what one Panthers fan to another considers a 'top prospect'... i've seen lists 12 deep of guys Panthers fans say they would never trade that aren't in the NHL yet.
Who are these 12 players we keep mentioning? I think I speak for the majority when I say that Huberdeau and Bjugstad are the two that are untouchable, when it comes to Luongo. Would I like it if Tallon dealt Petrovic, no, but given our depth on defense, its not the end of the world. Howden Im high on because of his offensive skill, and that he adds a TON of speed to the team. Again, I wouldnt want him dealt either, but you have to give to get. Nobody said either one of those two, or Shore, Robak, Grimaldi, etc. were untouchables, so Im not sure where you get these 12 players from.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
He's becoming overrated, you're acting like he's already a top centerman, that's the problem...you're also suggesting he's much better than another prospect with a lot of the same characteristics, albeit not 6'6".
Im acting like he is already a top centerman? How so? Please go quote me where I even mention that, or anything along those lines? In fact, my last post you so happen to quote says that I think he is still a project, which he is. Bjugstad is our best all-around center prospect, and he has size, skill, and grit that is needed to be successful at that position. We have not had a center prospect with that combination, ever. We knew he was a project when we drafted him the draft before last. The same thing about his size, skill, and grit has been said by most Panther fans, yet you see that as us overrating a prospect? Why do we think he is a good prospect, well that is because we just saw him dominate his fellow prospects during a recent Panthers development camp. But hey, since he did pretty good in that camp, which included Huberdeau, I guess that means we are overrating him again

Quote:
I like him as a prospect, but he's just a prospect...I'm fine with Florida fans not wanting to move him, doesn't mean he isn't getting overrated - we see it happen all the time (I recall reading similar things about Shawn Matthias a few years back).
HOW IS HE BEING OVERRATED, BECAUSE WE WONT TRADE HIM FOR LUONGO??? OMG, we actually want to keep some of our top prospects, and try to build a team that can be successful for a long period of time. What are we thinking

pb1300 is online now  
Old
08-03-2012, 04:50 PM
  #83
arsmaster
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 16,324
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by pb1300 View Post


HOW IS HE BEING OVERRATED, BECAUSE WE WONT TRADE HIM FOR LUONGO??? OMG, we actually want to keep some of our top prospects, and try to build a team that can be successful for a long period of time. What are we thinking
Has to do with the "potential #1 center", the "at worst awesome 2nd line center", the "can't move our first ever 1c prospect" type comments coming out of your fan base.

Has nothing to do with Luongo.

But the bolded and all caps sure told me.

arsmaster is online now  
Old
08-03-2012, 04:58 PM
  #84
Laus723
Future Now
 
Laus723's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Boca Raton, FL
Country: United States
Posts: 27,035
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
Paint the whole fanbase much?

I know who Bjugstad is.

You can look at my post history, I suggested Bjugstad almost as soon as Luongo made it known, he'd waive his NTC if asked.

He's becoming overrated, you're acting like he's already a top centerman, that's the problem...you're also suggesting he's much better than another prospect with a lot of the same characteristics, albeit not 6'6".

Bjugstad had 1 goal and 0 assissts in 5 games, outside the mean nothing Latvia 12-2 game. Wouldn't this #1C be able to dominate his age group more, if he was a sure fire NHL 1st line center?

I like him as a prospect, but he's just a prospect...I'm fine with Florida fans not wanting to move him, doesn't mean he isn't getting overrated - we see it happen all the time (I recall reading similar things about Shawn Matthias a few years back).

Comparing Bjugstad and Gaunce at this time is unfair to both players, I just don't think it's as easy to call Bjugstad the player with the better upside...
Seeing as how Tallon hasn't moved him, I'd say the GM is the root of our outlook on Jugs. And Matthias was never thought of as highly, I'm a fan of the kid.

__________________
So you're saying there's a chance!
Laus723 is offline  
Old
08-03-2012, 05:00 PM
  #85
Laus723
Future Now
 
Laus723's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Boca Raton, FL
Country: United States
Posts: 27,035
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
Has to do with the "potential #1 center", the "at worst awesome 2nd line center", the "can't move our first ever 1c prospect" type comments coming out of your fan base.

Has nothing to do with Luongo.

But the bolded and all caps sure told me.
So...Bjugsad doesn't have top line center potential?

Laus723 is offline  
Old
08-03-2012, 05:05 PM
  #86
pb1300
BLEED RED
 
pb1300's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Aiyio, Greece
Country: Greece
Posts: 10,598
vCash: 500
Send a message via Yahoo to pb1300
Quote:
Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
Has to do with the "potential #1 center", the "at worst awesome 2nd line center", the "can't move our first ever 1c prospect" type comments coming out of your fan base.

Has nothing to do with Luongo.

But the bolded and all caps sure told me.
Isnt "potential" used with every prospect? Player X could potentially be a regular NHLer, player Y could potentially be a 1st, 2nd, 3rd line player. You are really trying to tell me that we overrate Bjugstad because we use words like "potential?" WOW...really??? That is one of the most commonly used words in all of sports, in regards to young athletes. Potential is why we have drafts. Nobody called him "at worst awesome 2nd line center," or that we "cant move our first ever 1c prospect." LOL, now you are just pulling crap out of you know where. Im sure that if Luongo's name, or a Canuck for that matter, wasnt in this proposal, you would still be just as insightful, right?

pb1300 is online now  
Old
08-03-2012, 05:14 PM
  #87
Kershaw
 
Kershaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Country:
Posts: 25,519
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
Bjugstad had a decent freshman year at Minnesota and a very good one in his sophmore year.

He had 6 points at the world juniors - 5 of them game in one mean nothing game where the US beat Latvia 12-2.
Yes, it wasn't his best showing at the World Juniors, but a lot of other big name players also underachieved for the US. Coyle, Etem, Merill and Saad all had poor tournaments by their standards. That being said, you're looking at a 6 game sample size in a very short tournament. When you watch him play in college, you'll realize that he's physically gifted, he has skill that controlled the pace of the game for Minnesota. Him and Brock Nelson stood out to me when I was watching college games.

Quote:
He's becoming Cody Hodgson like overrated on this board.
I'm not sure about the comparison between the two, they are very different player. Even if he's overrated by your standards, he's a hell of a prospect.

Quote:
The only reason he's thought of more highly than Gaunce is because he's two years ahead...comparing there most recent years isn't an accurate depiction of what they'll be at the NHL level (18 year old vs 20 year old is a big jump).
Exactly. We don't know if Gaunce will develop at Bjugstad's pace, but Bjugstad has already dominated college hockey in his sophomore season.

Kershaw is offline  
Old
08-03-2012, 05:34 PM
  #88
Shawnathon
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 319
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitsfan67 View Post
Lol tons of things wrong with ur posts.....there's tons of people who would agree that he's a future hall of famer...just because he hasent won a cup doesn't mean he won't get into he hall....he's a 3 time vezina trophy winner.....a 2 time allstar and he has other personal trophys...and your trying to compare him to Joseph, give ur head a shake bud there not in the same league....
I can't tell if your serious. Joseph at this point in time is well above Loungo. And Loungo is not a top 3. Top 10 yes. And 3 vezina nominations is MUCH MUCH MUCH differen't than actually winning the award. If Loungo goes on to never win an hardware other than that Olympic gold. His only shot to get into the HOF is to win 500 games. And that won't happen.

Shawnathon is offline  
Old
08-03-2012, 05:34 PM
  #89
AmazingNuck
Registered User
 
AmazingNuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 2,130
vCash: 500
I don't understand most of the posters on here.

Convincing Canucks fans that Bjugstad won't be moved for Luongo won't prevent Tallon from dealing Bjugstad. In a similar note, convincing Panthers fans that Bjugstad will be moved for Luongo won't cause Tallon to deal Bjugstad.

This whole thread (including the other ones before) seem like the fans believe that if they can convince the other fanbase to yield, that the GMs will yield as well.

Do Vancouver fans want Bjugstad? Yes. There's no point in downplaying the ability/prospect of Bjugstad as a top player in order to try and convince Florida fans that Bjugstad is worth dealing.

Do Florida fans want to keep Bjugstad instead of having Luongo? Yes.

I seriously don't understand why Canucks fans keep trying to shove Luongo down Panthers' fans throats. The fans don't want him? Fine. But the fans don't represent the GM. The fans don't want to move Bjugstad? Fine. But, again, if Tallon decides to move Bjugstad, there won't be anything any of the fans can do about the move.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawnathon View Post
I can't tell if your serious. Joseph at this point in time is well above Loungo. And Loungo is not a top 3. Top 10 yes. And 3 vezina nominations is MUCH MUCH MUCH differen't than actually winning the award. If Loungo goes on to never win an hardware other than that Olympic gold. His only shot to get into the HOF is to win 500 games. And that won't happen.
Only if he gets moved

AmazingNuck is offline  
Old
08-03-2012, 05:38 PM
  #90
Shawnathon
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 319
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by King Canuck View Post
Good to see Florida has so many GM's. Please don't tell me your not trading X player for Luongo when you have no inside info on the Panthers. I also read a hilarious comment of Theodore only being a slight downgrade on Luongo, thanks for the laugh man.
The problem is Vancouver fans sound like bad salesman trying to sell a car with an engine knock when it comes to Loungo. Somehow your shocked when other fans call Loungo out on being inconsistent. How can you not call him inconsistent? Do you think other fan bases are stupid?

Shawnathon is offline  
Old
08-03-2012, 05:40 PM
  #91
Scottrockztheworld*
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,301
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by AmazingNuck View Post
I don't understand most of the posters on here.

Convincing Canucks fans that Bjugstad won't be moved for Luongo won't prevent Tallon from dealing Bjugstad. In a similar note, convincing Panthers fans that Bjugstad will be moved for Luongo won't cause Tallon to deal Bjugstad.

This whole thread (including the other ones before) seem like the fans believe that if they can convince the other fanbase to yield, that the GMs will yield as well.

Do Vancouver fans want Bjugstad? Yes. There's no point in downplaying the ability/prospect of Bjugstad as a top player in order to try and convince Florida fans that Bjugstad is worth dealing.

Do Florida fans want to keep Bjugstad instead of having Luongo? Yes.

I seriously don't understand why Canucks fans keep trying to shove Luongo down Panthers' fans throats. The fans don't want him? Fine. But the fans don't represent the GM. The fans don't want to move Bjugstad? Fine. But, again, if Tallon decides to move Bjugstad, there won't be anything any of the fans can do about the move.




Only if he gets moved

Very good post.



Its because we are the team of the guy being traded. We will try to sell the player to the stars... it happens in these types of threads. I personally don't understand why fan bases like the Panther's & Leafs' keep coming in these threads when we have clearly stated we will not take crappy deals for our goalie. If you don't like the thread don't come in here.... same goes for Canuck fans.

Scottrockztheworld* is offline  
Old
08-03-2012, 05:41 PM
  #92
Ho Borvat
Registered User
 
Ho Borvat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 4,346
vCash: 500
If we can land Bjugstad, awesome.

If not, hopefully the return still holds a lot of value for Van

Ho Borvat is online now  
Old
08-03-2012, 05:42 PM
  #93
RDRR
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 746
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawnathon View Post
The problem is Vancouver fans sound like bad salesman trying to sell a car with an engine knock when it comes to Loungo. Somehow your shocked when other fans call Loungo out on being inconsistent. How can you not call him inconsistent? Do you think other fan bases are stupid?
Yes.

Luongo is very consistent. You're only listening to HF if you believe otherwise.

RDRR is offline  
Old
08-03-2012, 05:43 PM
  #94
Shawnathon
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 319
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imagine17 View Post
Very good post.



Its because we are the team of the guy being traded. We will try to sell the player to the stars... it happens in these types of threads. I personally don't understand why fan bases like the Panther's & Leafs' keep coming in these threads when we have clearly stated we will not take crappy deals for our goalie. If you don't like the thread don't come in here.... same goes for Canuck fans.
FYI, this isn't the Canuck Forum and this isn't your thread. Last time I checked, Florida was in the thread title.

Shawnathon is offline  
Old
08-03-2012, 05:44 PM
  #95
Shawnathon
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 319
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by RDRR View Post
Yes.

Luongo is very consistent. You're only listening to HF if you believe otherwise.
Is this sarcasm?

Shawnathon is offline  
Old
08-03-2012, 05:45 PM
  #96
Scottrockztheworld*
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,301
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawnathon View Post
FYI, this isn't the Canuck Forum and this isn't your thread. Last time I checked, Florida was in the thread title.


Thats why I said the same goes for Vancouver fans. Does it not ring true that we are the team trying to sell the player?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawnathon View Post
Is this sarcasm?
Is this sarcasm? I hope so!

Year in & year out Luongo is consistently at least one of the top 5-10 goalies in the league.

Scottrockztheworld* is offline  
Old
08-03-2012, 05:45 PM
  #97
Ho Borvat
Registered User
 
Ho Borvat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 4,346
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawnathon View Post
The problem is Vancouver fans sound like bad salesman trying to sell a car with an engine knock when it comes to Loungo. Somehow your shocked when stupid
I consider myself a relatively objective fan, but hes pretty much been a beacon of consistency for seasons...

Ho Borvat is online now  
Old
08-03-2012, 06:15 PM
  #98
settinguptheplay
Classless Canuck Fan
 
settinguptheplay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,474
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawnathon View Post
The problem is Vancouver fans sound like bad salesman trying to sell a car with an engine knock when it comes to Loungo. Somehow your shocked when other fans call Loungo out on being inconsistent. How can you not call him inconsistent? Do you think other fan bases are stupid?
Luongo is the model of consistency... What a ridiculous statement.

settinguptheplay is offline  
Old
08-03-2012, 06:34 PM
  #99
harv3317
Registered User
 
harv3317's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,290
vCash: 500
luongo is very consistent in crunch time and during the first two months of the season, oh yes, his puck handling is tremendous too!!! keep him, as a panther fan and i believe i'm in the majority we don't want, or need luongo. we're set in goal as it is. i loved the earlier comment about used car salesmen because it strikes soooo true.

harv3317 is offline  
Old
08-03-2012, 06:44 PM
  #100
Shawnathon
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 319
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by settinguptheplay View Post
Luongo is the model of consistency... What a ridiculous statement.
You can't bring up any of Loungo's playoff performances without getting an infraction so I'm just going to leave it unresponsive.

Shawnathon is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:32 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.