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The MLD 2012 Thread II

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Old
08-08-2012, 01:40 PM
  #251
TheDevilMadeMe
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For our next pick we'll select a guy who excelled as both a checking winger and a defensive defenseman:

Jimmy Roberts, RW/D



According to hockey reference:
D 1963-64 to 1966-67
RW 1967-68 to 1968-69
D/RW 1969-70 to 1971-72
RW 1972-73
D/RW 1973-74 to 1974-75
RW 1975-76 to 1976-77
D 1977-78

Stanley Cups in 1965, 1966, 1973, 1976, 1977
Selected to play in the All Star Game in 1969 and 1970 as a RW
14th in All Star voting for D in 1970-71


Quote:
Originally Posted by wikipedia
He was renowned for his defensive skills and often used as a "shadow" against high scoring enemy forwards.
Quote:
Originally Posted by legendsofhockey
Late in the 1963-64 season, he saw his first NHL action with Montreal, picking up 13 games, his first assist, and a run in the playoffs. The move marked the start of a lengthy big-league career with no return trips to the minors.

Over the next three seasons, Roberts established himself as what Conn Smythe described as "a hewer of wood and a hauler of water." In other words, Roberts was an unspectacular but dedicated player with a strong commitment to team play. He was once described as being built like a mooring post for a battleship. When he hit the ice, he was an alert and intense competitor.

With the Habs, Roberts' job was to work as the backdrop to a lineup replete with stars. He killed penalties and slowed opposition lines like water in a deep freeze.
In 1967, however, the expansion St. Louis Blues made Roberts their first-ever selection. He joined the club and relished his role as a leader and tireless toiler. He also began to play defense in addition to his wing duties.

During the course of his four and a half seasons with the club, his point totals rose and he was awarded the team's captaincy in 1971 as a result of Red Berenson's departure. But shortly thereafter, the Blues found themselves in need of an offensive threat to take the load off Garry Unger. They traded for Phil Roberto of the Canadiens and used Roberts as collateral.

So he returned to the familiar ice of Habs' hockey where he'd already won two Stanley Cups during the '60s. This time around, he was the grizzled veteran known as "Old Dad" although he still had plenty of spirited hockey left to play. By the time he was traded back to the Blues in 1977, he had occasion to enjoy three more league championships.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OurHistory
A tireless worker, Roberts was the ultimate team player. Toiling in relative obscurity and driven by a ferocious competitive nature, he contributed to some of the greatest teams in Habs history.

The Canadiens were the fourth team for which Roberts suited up in 1963-64. He appeared in 15 regular season matches, picking up his first NHL point (an assist) and he dressed for all seven of the Habs’ playoff games that season.

Cracking the Canadiens’ lineup permanently in the fall of 1965, his job was to kill penalties and cover the top scorers in the league, a role he embraced and performed as well as anyone in the NHL. Fast enough to match most opponents and strong enough to handle the physical requirements of his specialty, Roberts was a key contributor to the Stanley Cup Championships of 1965 and 1966.

Left unprotected prior to the expansion draft in 1967, Roberts was scooped up early. St. Louis selected him with their first pick, and he played a big role in helping the expansion Blues to the Finals in each of their first three years of operation. No longer limited to an exclusively defensive role, Roberts showed that he had a scoring touch as well, picking up a dozen or more goals in each of his four complete seasons with St. Louis.

Reacquired by the Canadiens in 1971-72, Roberts resumed his defensive responsibilities and was soon smothering opposing forwards with his energetic and effective play. He managed to find the twine 14 times the next season, one that ended with his third Stanley Cup parade. He potted 13 goals in 1976, the year Scotty Bowman took over the Montreal bench, and helped lead the Habs to the fourth Stanley Cup of his career.
Quote:
Originally Posted by overpass View Post
Best penalty killing wingers by the numbers, 1968-2010
Player PKTime TeamPK+
Craig Ramsay 7.96 0.77
Ed Westfall 7.68 0.80
Bob Gainey 6.58 0.83
Don Marcotte 5.39 0.80
Kelly Miller 6.16 0.85
Bill Barber 3.71 0.80
Brian Rolston 4.48 0.86
Jari Kurri 4.14 0.86
Jim Roberts 4.87 0.88
Jay Pandolfo 4.92 0.89


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 08-08-2012 at 03:25 PM.
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Old
08-08-2012, 02:00 PM
  #252
seventieslord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwight View Post
Sherbrooke will select a solid all-around defenseman with a couple top 10's in Norris voting to start off our 3rd pairing.

Christian Ehrhoff, D
I think Ehrhoff’s current MLD placement is a perfect example of over-reliance on all-star and Norris voting (received from a tiny minority of voters, too) as a substitute for watching players, and taking advantage of more available stats, some of which aren’t even that advanced or complicated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Troll Ward View Post
Time to round out the 2nd line...

The IceCaps select:

http://cdn0.sbnation.com/imported_as...67/4leeman.jpg

So, admittedly his career numbers are merely decent (446pts in 667 career reg. season games) - but how many guys with a 50 goal season to their name drop this low?

Reasonably clutch in the playoffs also - 24 pts in 36 games, including a cup win with the Habs in '93.
A 50 goal season in and of itself isn’t reason to select a player. As you alluded to, the whole picture should be considered.

In 1990, Leeman caught lightning in a bottle playing for the most run-and-gun team of the last 25 years. (unverified stat alert!) I am “pretty sure” I’ve checked before, and no team has approached their combined GF/GA total from that season ever since.

Leeman is a natural defenseman, so he can line up as a spare and perform reasonably well at either position in bursts. But that’s where he belongs; in the press box, not in your starting lineup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
The MANIA select an extemely versatile player in

Steve Sullivan, F

Sullivan can play all 3 forward positions and is noted for his speed, hard work, and two-way game. He's a major short handed threat, once leading the league in SHGs with two other top 10 finishes. About the only thing he can't do is act as a physical presence (haha).

Points – 16th(2004)
Assists – 9th(2004)

VS2 percentages:
Point Percentages – 84, 78, 69, 67, 64, 59, 53, 50, 47
Goal Percentages – 63, 59, 57, 54, 51, 50
Assist Percentages – 88, 77, 71, 59, 54, 52, 49, 48, 45

Bio from last year here:
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...5&postcount=40
Good pick; one of the top-5 overall offensive resumes among post-expansion forwards. I’d have considered him as a 4th line center for sure, between two bigger, stronger guys, just to have him as an auxiliary offensive weapon and potential 2nd unit pointman.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
D Sergei Babinov



18 goals in 162 career Soviet National Team games
39 goals in 452 career Soviet League games
13th all-time in games among defensemen for Soviet National Team
9x Soviet League Champion
4x World Championships Gold Medalist
Silver Medalist, 1976 World Championships
Bronze Medalist, 1977 World Championships
1979 Challenge Cup Winner
1981 Canada Cup Winner
1976 Canada Cup Bronze Medalist

http://www.angelfire.com/tv2/rainbowcountry/1981.html

-The Red Machine
https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...w=1366&bih=638
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...+babinov&hl=en

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=J05VAAAAIBAJ&

sjid=dz4NAAAAIBAJ&pg=3082,673612&dq=sergei+babinov &hl=en

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...+babinov&hl=en

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...+babinov&hl=en

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...+babinov&hl=en

http://books.google.com/books?id=0cf...abinov&f=false
Just wanted to say, good work on this bio. Eye-opening.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Okay, I officially regret the trade. After watching Slim fall so far, we were TWO picks away from getting him...

I'll post the composite bio I just assembled on him.

seventieslord drafted him in the MLD11 and we were all so impressed that Slim was voted by us GMs as a draft all-star. Then Hedberg drafted him on his MLD 2010 championship squad. Both of them provided tons of great bio stuff that are convincing of his greatness, deserving main all-time draft extra skater status.

I hadn't realized he was undrafted this year to date until my co-GM submitted his name among those for blueline consideration a couple of days ago. I immediately said it should be our next pick and I have spent a couple of hours assembling bio info on him.
I see him as more of a (bigger) Gordie Roberts – at this level, “pretty good” at everything but elite at nothing. The awesome longevity and durability means you’ll get the same thing from him every game, and he won’t miss a game either.

Although, one thing that may need more research is his AHA days… was he a forward there? Not that it matters all that much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
We had him on our short-list to start, but when we found out he played time at forward during his two best offensive seasons, he was crossed off.
Are you referring to either of the PCHA seasons I had him listed as 2nd and 3rd in D-man scoring? If so, that sucks  - changes things a lot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
So far, I've seen you call yourself a lifetime Canucks fan, a lifetime Sharks fan, a lifetime Sabres fan and a lifetime Capitals fan. Am I missing any?


Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Lokomotiv selects Tony Gingras, RW



Bio to come.
I think this is a good pick. Excellent 4th liner, or, good 2nd line glue guy/space creator/playmaker. He was one guy who really impressed me more after I picked him last draft.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
The various internet translation services(free) are more than adequate for hockey related text.

Will give specific sites if board rules allow.
Yes, please do.

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Old
08-08-2012, 02:05 PM
  #253
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord
I think Ehrhoff’s current MLD placement is a perfect example of over-reliance on all-star and Norris voting (received from a tiny minority of voters, too) as a substitute for watching players, and taking advantage of more available stats, some of which aren’t even that advanced or complicated.
Right, you'd rather select Gibbs, who never recorded a single vote for the Norris in his life, despite playing at a time when half the world's talent was either in Europe or the WHA.

(MLD finals 2011 argument redux!)

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Old
08-08-2012, 02:07 PM
  #254
Dwight
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Sherbrooke will pick Bohuslav Stastny, LW and Stu Barnes, C

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Old
08-08-2012, 02:36 PM
  #255
seventieslord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Please don't volunteer me for something that tedious

I did help when I could by adding a bunch of rounds in the middle of the draft
It’s not tedious, though, that was the point. Takes 5 minutes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Just pick. 70s obviously doesn't mind being skipped,
.
You are right, I don’t.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I thought of Cam Ward as a possible comparable for Quick. Bill Ranford might be another.
Ward and Ranford are comparables by now, I think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Well... I agree about Halderson and Seabrook
- Stewart is legitimately in the discussion for best defenseman of his time, along with Cameron and Young. The uncertainty factor makes him drop appropriately, but this is more than far enough.
- Coutu is a guy I have been heavily critical of. Mediocre offense, and very little substantiation of defensive ability at this point. But even if we assume he was no better than an average player from an NHL standpoint at that time, it was still a very small and exclusive league, and he was good enough to last there for 11 seasons (including one in the NHA) and could have lasted longer if not for the ban. I think he is worthy at this point for that reason alone. Then you add in the fact that he’s a legitimate “goon who can play” like McSorley or Fontinato and he’s got niche value too.
- Gibbs was a #1 defenseman 9 straight times; being your team’s #1 defenseman seems to be a valued trait, except when it’s Gibbs. It’s clear by now that you have an irrational hate on for this guy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by God Made Me View Post
This is so much more interesting than the ATD. There's only been 1 Superbad (starring Jonah Hill, Michael Cera, and Christopher Mintz-Plasse) pick
If you’re going to say that, say who it was! We are allowed to criticize, you know. Let the pick stand up to scrutiny, if it can.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Selfish Man View Post
With selection #253, the Pittsburgh Hornets select:

Ilkka Sinisalo, LW

Jeez, what am I missing on this guy? I see at least a few dozen post-expansion wingers with better offensive resumes. It’s unfathomable how he could have risen 80 spots after the kicking he took in last year’s playoffs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
With our first selection, Winnipeg selects jack of all trades, master of none, D Larry Hillman



http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...n#post26858338
He was on “the list”. There are now just 5 names there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
Winnipeg will also select D Jim McKenny
McKenny appears to have played RW during the 75-76 season, which is why there are only 7 finishes there.
This is correct, he was a RW that year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by God Made Me View Post
I think your pick 1057 of Semenko is fine. In 2011 he went at 801 before guys like Lundqvist, Kolzig, and Giguere, and I thought it was too early.
This is far too early for Semenko. The guys I took as goons in the undrafteds thread were better and more useful players. Even if he is marginally better at fighting, there are about a dozen heavyweights who will be taken over the next 800 picks (if we go that far) who were significantly better as players, far beyond the point where taking a Semenko could be justified.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
For our first pick, we'll select two way forward:

Charlie Sands, C/RW



3rd in voting for All Star RW in 1938
Stanley Cup in 1939

Points - 19th (1940)
Goals – 8th(1937), 10th(1938), 20th(1935)
Assists – 8th(1940)

Point percentages – 67, 58, 57, 51, 50
Goal Percentages – 78, 74, 60
Assist Percentages – 71, 50
This was a good pick too. Was another potential 4th line C for me.

Any idea when he played RW and when he played C?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
For our next pick we'll select a guy who excelled as both a checking winger and a defensive defenseman:

Jimmy Roberts, RW/D



According to hockey reference:
D 1963-64 to 1966-67
RW 1967-68 to 1968-69
D/RW 1969-70 to 1971-72
RW 1972-73
D/RW 1973-74 to 1974-75
RW 1975-76 to 1976-77
D 1977-78


Stanley Cups in 1965, 1966, 1973, 1976, 1977
14th in All Star voting for D in 1970-71
Not gonna lie, he was A number 1, top-of-the-heap for my next pick; an elite spare.

Point totals don’t flatter him because he played some D in there.
Ice time doesn’t flatter him because he played some F in there.

I bolded the only parts of his chronology that I 100% agree with. The rest is totally up for debate, and maybe C1958 can be useful here.

For example, icetime estimates in 1968 and 1969 have him at 23 and 20.6 minutes. Those are not forward minutes.

Another example, 1971 appears to be a defenseman season (21.8 minute average, and earned some all-star votes) – but, 13 goals, 18 assists? Something’s up.

One thing’s not debatable – he was an unheralded worker bee for teams that went to the finals more often than they didn’t.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Right, you'd rather select Gibbs, who never recorded a single vote for the Norris in his life, despite playing at a time when half the world's talent was either in Europe or the WHA.

(MLD finals 2011 argument redux!)
It’s funny that all-star votes don’t enter the discussion at this point. You don’t have a history of being disingenuous, why start now? He earned recognition twice and played in the all-star game too, despite being a defensive player; he was not just some mediocre player.

Gibbs was his team’s #1 defenseman 9 straight times. A couple of times the team was horrible, but most of the time they were pretty close to average. This would be a good thing if he was any other player, but you have something against Gibbs. I honestly think you are judging him by a different standard than you’d judge anyone else. If history was littered with players who were the #1 defenseman on poor teams multiple times, yet were actually poor players, showing that their TOI stats were deceptive, then you would have something, but that is not the case at all.

Also, the percentage of top talent that wasn’t in the NHL was nowhere near half. It was significant and it watered down the league, yes, but that affected players who were actually mediocre, not so much Gibbs (I’m not saying there weren’t players who would have bumped him down the pecking order, but you’re making it sound like it would take him from 15th to 30th and that’s a joke, even though I pretty much went along with your joke as a courtesy last time)

You basically agreed with everything I posted following the finals once there was nothing at stake anymore (with one noticeable and inexplicable exception); why the issues now? Why the hell is it not yet time to select a player who earned all-star recognition in two seasons (which puts him ahead of the vast majority of players currently available) and who was a #1 defenseman 9 times (which puts him ahead of all players currently available except maybe one)?

"yeah, but still". Right? I mean, really. What overrides that?

This feels an awful lot like political play/posturing, when I have been nothing less than downright honest about praising your picks when appropriate, even though we are in the same division. We are here to learn, and to see the best players get picked higher and the mediocre ones lower, right?

-----------------

anyway, the point about Ehrhoff is that he's never been anywhere as good as a few norris votes have indicated; he was a heavily sheltered PP specialist for his first few seasons, and although he developed positively after that, he has never been a player heavily relied on for defensive or two-way play. He is a point collector. A pretty good one, mind you, but once you throw out those norris votes (and you should), you're left with point totals to judge his worth. And by that metric there are plenty of better guys left. He's had moments, like being #1 and 2 in TOI for Vancouver the last two years (though sheltered), but also, the worst +/- for a cup finalist ever, and dropped a minute and a half in the playoffs when the rest of their top-4 went up by 0:30-3:30 each.

He didn't even stand out as an ES producer in his last two seasons though. The others in the top-4 all produced at the same rate that he did. His hockey card stats (which are the sole reason he received any votes) are PP-driven. The votes he received are token votes, and there's no good reason they shouldn't or couldn't have gone to guys like Boyle, Seabrook, Keith, Burns, Karlsson and a host of others, who had comparable offensive totals but without the help of the PP Kings, the Sedins.


Last edited by seventieslord: 08-08-2012 at 02:49 PM.
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Old
08-08-2012, 02:51 PM
  #256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
IAre you referring to either of the PCHA seasons I had him listed as 2nd and 3rd in D-man scoring? If so, that sucks  - changes things a lot.
1922, and maybe 1923

Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
This was a good pick too. Was another potential 4th line C for me.

Any idea when he played RW and when he played C?
He played almost exclusively wing - both left and right - in Boston, and almost exclusively center in Montreal. All of his goalscoring success was on wing, and all of his playmaking success was at center. Not sure how exactly to evaluate that, but it wa a clear pattern.

Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Gibbs was his team’s #1 defenseman 9 straight times.
I just have one question about this stretch. Who was the best #2 defenseman he played with during that time?

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Old
08-08-2012, 02:58 PM
  #257
tarheelhockey
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With our 16th pick, 263rd overall, the Winston-Salem Polar Twins select:

Stephane Yelle, C

Steady, reliable veteran presence on the fourth line. Will likely center the second PK unit.

Stanley Cup Champion 1996, 2001
Stanley Cup Finalist 2004

- As a checking specialist on three Stanley Cup finalists, Yelle was successful at containing elite offensive players on a playoff stage.
- Reliable faceoff man, with a 53% career average according to the partial stats that exist on NHL.com
- Able to fill in at defense when necessary.
- Generally a gritty, hardworking, steady-as-she-goes veteran who poses few risks when he is on the ice.


Last edited by tarheelhockey: 08-08-2012 at 03:11 PM.
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08-08-2012, 03:04 PM
  #258
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
For example, icetime estimates in 1968 and 1969 have him at 23 and 20.6 minutes. Those are not forward minutes.
He was voted to the All-Star game in 1969 and 1970 as a RW. I think that means that he would have, at least, played a lot more RW than D.

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08-08-2012, 03:15 PM
  #259
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Translation

Google.com and babelfish.com would handle such translations easily. Question of getting used to the service.

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08-08-2012, 03:22 PM
  #260
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord
Gibbs was a #1 defenseman 9 straight times; being your team’s #1 defenseman seems to be a valued trait, except when it’s Gibbs. It’s clear by now that you have an irrational hate on for this guy.
Quote:
It’s funny that all-star votes don’t enter the discussion at this point. You don’t have a history of being disingenuous, why start now? He earned recognition twice and played in the all-star game too, despite being a defensive player; he was not just some mediocre player.
If you want people to pay attention to your rants, you probably shouldn't preface them by accusing people who disagree with you of being "irrational" or "disingenuous."

Leading a team in ice time is nice. It's a lot more meaningful if it was a good team or a good defensive team. Even when Gibbs' teams were merely mediocre, their team defense sucked.

Quote:
Gibbs was his team’s #1 defenseman 9 straight times. A couple of times the team was horrible, but most of the time they were pretty close to average. This would be a good thing if he was any other player, but you have something against Gibbs. I honestly think you are judging him by a different standard than you’d judge anyone else. If history was littered with players who were the #1 defenseman on poor teams multiple times, yet were actually poor players, showing that their TOI stats were deceptive, then you would have something, but that is not the case at all.
He led a mediocre team in ice time acording to the unofficial ice time estimates. In the late 70s when even "average teams" were relative crap. He never received a single vote for the Norris and finished 11th and 15th in all star voting. If all the players from Europe and the WHA were in the NHL at the time, that 11th probably becomes a 20th and the 15th disappears entirely.

Quote:
Also, the percentage of top talent that wasn’t in the NHL was nowhere near half.
Disagree. The league is only about 50% Canadian now and it was 95% Canadian when Gibbs played. The USSR and CSSR were at their peaks of talent production and a significant number of talented Canadians (including your #2 defenseman Paul Shmyr were in the WHA).

Quote:
It was significant and it watered down the league, yes, but that affected players who were actually mediocre, not so much Gibbs (I’m not saying there weren’t players who would have bumped him down the pecking order, but you’re making it sound like it would take him from 15th to 30th and that’s a joke, even though I pretty much went along with your joke as a courtesy last time)
I wasn't joking.

Quote:
You basically agreed with everything I posted following the finals once there was nothing at stake anymore (with one noticeable and inexplicable exception); why the issues now? Why the hell is it not yet time to select a player who earned all-star recognition in two seasons (which puts him ahead of the vast majority of players currently available) and who was a #1 defenseman 9 times (which puts him ahead of all players currently available except maybe one)?
I didn't say Gibbs was a bad pick; just I don't think he was a particularly great one either. He was on our long list of guys, ahead of some guys already drafted, but behind some guys not yet drafted.

Quote:
This feels an awful lot like political play/posturing, when I have been nothing less than downright honest about praising your picks when appropriate, even though we are in the same division. We are here to learn, and to see the best players get picked higher and the mediocre ones lower, right?
So I'm supposed to praise all your picks even ones that aren't all that special? Wouldn't that be politics? Seabrook was penciled in as our #6 defenseman by the way.

Quote:
anyway, the point about Ehrhoff is that he's never been anywhere as good as a few norris votes have indicated; he was a heavily sheltered PP specialist for his first few seasons, and although he developed positively after that, he has never been a player heavily relied on for defensive or two-way play. He is a point collector. A pretty good one, mind you, but once you throw out those norris votes (and you should), you're left with point totals to judge his worth. And by that metric there are plenty of better guys left. He's had moments, like being #1 and 2 in TOI for Vancouver the last two years (though sheltered), but also, the worst +/- for a cup finalist ever, and dropped a minute and a half in the playoffs when the rest of their top-4 went up by 0:30-3:30 each.
Ehrhoff has had several seasons now as a good offensive defenseman who is decent in his own zone. Guys like that don't exactly grow on trees now. Trash his performance in the 2011 playoffs all you want; Gibbs has 6 points in 36 playoff games, only once making it to the second round.

Quote:
He didn't even stand out as an ES producer in his last two seasons though. The others in the top-4 all produced at the same rate that he did. His hockey card stats (which are the sole reason he received any votes) are PP-driven.
I assume the team drafting him is going to use him on the powerplay. That said, Ehrhoff is kind of soft, but his ability to move the puck out of his own zone impressed me in San Jose and Vancouver


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 08-08-2012 at 04:28 PM.
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Old
08-08-2012, 03:27 PM
  #261
tarheelhockey
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With our 17th pick, 264th overall, the Winston-Salem Polar Twins select:



Buzz Boll, LW

Energetic two-way winger. Comfortable on a checking line but still has decent scoring touch.

- Not a large man, Boll was tenacious and conscientious at both ends of the ice.
- Finished 4th in goals per game and 8th in points per game during the weak 1942-43 campaign.
- Over the course of his career, he was 15th in total goals scored. All other players in the top-20 have been drafted.
- Has a peculiar playoff stat line. He was shut out in 22 of his 31 games. In the other 9, during the 1936 campaign, his team-leading 10 points took the Leafs to the Finals.

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08-08-2012, 03:27 PM
  #262
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I just have one question about this stretch. Who was the best #2 defenseman he played with during that time?
Not sure; you’ll have to take your pick. There was late-career Leo Boivin, Doug Mohns, Ted Harris, Gary Bergman, Rod Seiling, and a handful of decent AAA draft players.

I know it’s really easy to say “well, they were towards the end of their careers, so it’s not that impressive to be a #1 over them” and there is truth to that; however:

- Following last year’s finals I demonstrated that Gibbs earned more minutes than ATD defensemen significantly more than any other 1970s MLD defenseman, while never being usurped by a scrub player – it’s possible that he only ever played with ATD players past their prime, while all the others I profiled played with prime ATDers, but that would be quite the coincidence.
- The same criticism could easily be leveled towards literally any defenseman available this late, with 9 seasons as a #1. Of course it wasn’t for great teams, and of course it wasn’t over other exceptional players. Otherwise he’d be long gone, right? Of course, there are only two available guys with a record as #1 defensemen even close to this, and the same criticisms apply to them. Honestly, even the small handful available with 4-6 seasons as a #1 defensemen can have the same criticism applied to them legitimately. (Hell, even the dozens of guys with 2-3 seasons as #1s, right?) I see no reason to believe that Gibbs was taken over anyone more deserving; I see the opposite still happening.

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He was voted to the All-Star game in 1969 and 1970 as a RW. I think that means that he would have, at least, played a lot more RW than D.
That is interesting in itself. Because as strong as he may have been defensively, would he really be voted to the ASG based on his play as a winger? As a defenseman, perhaps.

It’s very possible he got voted to the ASG at one position and played another one there. It’s also possible that hockey-reference doesn’t know how to appropriately list him in the ASG pages.

He’s such a tough player to rate overall because there was so much bloody switch hitting going on. I am sure that in this draft (picking up after a 32-team ATD) he is an elite, or perfect, spare. But at the same time, though he has a spare’s resume, is he good enough as either a forward or a defenseman to see fill-in duty in a smaller ATD, or is a team better off taking the best forward spare and best defenseman spare that they can? How important is to get a composite “all in one”? (personally I like it, but is it THAT important?) In this MLD, there is no such question mark; he IS good enough to play D all season if a D-man had a season-ending injury, and he IS good enough to be a 3rd/4th line forward regularly.

Ugh… totally convoluted statement there. But my point is he’s a guy whose draft position is bound to fluctuate rapidly depending on the size of the ATD we’re having, because whichever draft he gets taken in, his most attractive role is to be a multi-position spare, meaning he will tend to get taken towards the end of either draft.

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08-08-2012, 03:43 PM
  #263
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anyone that can take a short list for me? I'm up in Indianapolis for some family stuff so I won't be around overly much this week.

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08-08-2012, 04:04 PM
  #264
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Not sure; you’ll have to take your pick. There was late-career Leo Boivin, Doug Mohns, Ted Harris, Gary Bergman, Rod Seiling, and a handful of decent AAA draft players.

I know it’s really easy to say “well, they were towards the end of their careers, so it’s not that impressive to be a #1 over them” and there is truth to that; however:

- Following last year’s finals I demonstrated that Gibbs earned more minutes than ATD defensemen significantly more than any other 1970s MLD defenseman, while never being usurped by a scrub player – it’s possible that he only ever played with ATD players past their prime, while all the others I profiled played with prime ATDers, but that would be quite the coincidence.
- The same criticism could easily be leveled towards literally any defenseman available this late, with 9 seasons as a #1. Of course it wasn’t for great teams, and of course it wasn’t over other exceptional players. Otherwise he’d be long gone, right? Of course, there are only two available guys with a record as #1 defensemen even close to this, and the same criticisms apply to them. Honestly, even the small handful available with 4-6 seasons as a #1 defensemen can have the same criticism applied to them legitimately. (Hell, even the dozens of guys with 2-3 seasons as #1s, right?) I see no reason to believe that Gibbs was taken over anyone more deserving; I see the opposite still happening.
Just like most of the methods of evaluating players you have introduced, looking at ice time for defenseman is a usefull too. Unfortunately, also like all those other methods, this is not the be-all and end-all of player evaluation. It's even more questionable when we start getting into estimated ice time.

Being a #1 defenseman is a good thing. I don't think anybody would argue that. The question is, "how good is it?", and that's where numerous other factors come into play. For me, the biggest other factor is competition for that #1 job. If a player is consistently beating out really good players for ice time, that says a lot for me. For example, a 37 year old Leo Boivin and a 37-40 year old Doug Mohns are not serious competition. A 35 year old Gary Bergman and 35 year old Ted Haris is also pretty weak in terms of competition. Also, the defensive record of the team means a lot to me. Other minor factors, such as overall team strength, special teams time, and even the coach of the team come into play.

Barry Gibbs was a #1 defenseman, and that's a good thing, but it looks like it had as much to do with his situation as it did with his abilities as a defenseman.

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08-08-2012, 04:31 PM
  #265
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Jim Roberts

Usage outline.

Initially with the Canadiens he continued the tradition of a swing forward/defenseman like Bob Turner with one difference, Roberts would fill in at RW in a pinch.

With St.Louis, original expansion, once Scotty Bowman took over as coach he settled into a Ed Westfall type RW role with some emergency type dman minutes. Bowman regularly played 6 dmen plus Roberts. In the group was Jean-Guy Talbot who would swing as a PK forward and LW. Roberts over 20 minutes TOI is high.

Back to the Canadiens, Roberts was moved to the checking line RW role by Scotty Bowman. on a team that basically rotated four lines with some creative double shifting and use of swing players.

Last year in St.Louis:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/STL/1978.html

Doubt the accuracy of HR data. Note RW game total < 70 games. From games against the Canadiens Roberts played RW.

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08-08-2012, 04:34 PM
  #266
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Dreak and TDMM have my list

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08-08-2012, 04:40 PM
  #267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
For our first pick, we'll select two way forward:

Charlie Sands, C/RW



3rd in voting for All Star RW in 1938
Stanley Cup in 1939

Points - 19th (1940)
Goals – 8th(1937), 10th(1938), 20th(1935)
Assists – 8th(1940)

Point percentages – 67, 58, 57, 51, 50
Goal Percentages – 78, 74, 60
Assist Percentages – 71, 50
Love that pick

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Right, you'd rather select Gibbs, who never recorded a single vote for the Norris in his life, despite playing at a time when half the world's talent was either in Europe or the WHA.

(MLD finals 2011 argument redux!)
11th and a 13th in AST voting. Not horrible. Also not impressive. Definitely agree about the Europe/WHA part though.

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Just like most of the methods of evaluating players you have introduced, looking at ice time for defenseman is a usefull too. Unfortunately, also like all those other methods, this is not the be-all and end-all of player evaluation. It's even more questionable when we start getting into estimated ice time.

Being a #1 defenseman is a good thing. I don't think anybody would argue that. The question is, "how good is it?", and that's where numerous other factors come into play. For me, the biggest other factor is competition for that #1 job. If a player is consistently beating out really good players for ice time, that says a lot for me. For example, a 37 year old Leo Boivin and a 37-40 year old Doug Mohns are not serious competition. A 35 year old Gary Bergman and 35 year old Ted Haris is also pretty weak in terms of competition. Also, the defensive record of the team means a lot to me. Other minor factors, such as overall team strength, special teams time, and even the coach of the team come into play.

Barry Gibbs was a #1 defenseman, and that's a good thing, but it looks like it had as much to do with his situation as it did with his abilities as a defenseman.
And I totally agree with this. The example I could come up with is something like what if I was to say Karel Gut was a #1 defenseman on his team for 8 consecutive seasons (might be true, might not, for the sake of this example let's just say it is). What does that really mean? Gibbs competition isn't exactly impressive to me either, just how Gut's wasn't within their own teams. Also, Gibbs' defenses were mostly average to bad.

(Not to say it's a bad pick. He's fine here, it's just I think you're overselling him.

---------------

Some other thoughts on picks:

-Hillman was a guy I looked at, and I liked his AST record, but I was kinda turned off by literally everything else I read about him. He seemed like a part time defenseman. I'm pretty sure he only has 4 full NHL seasons and 3 full WHA seasons at the end of his career. with the rest of his career splitting time in the AHL and NHL because Imlach is crazy, correct?.

-Sinisalo has a pretty good defensive pedigree though doesn't he?

-Yelle is a good PKing 4th liner here. Like the pick.

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08-08-2012, 04:41 PM
  #268
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Barry Gibbs

#1 dman. Not a claim to be taken seriously. With Minnesota was surrounded by veterans, listed above, plus a solid young veteran. The veterans minutes were managed to optimize by keeping them fresh. Barry Gibbs was always protected on the ice with a veteran or a solid young veteran. So the TOI minutes may be high but the responsibilities were low.

Atlanta/St.Louis/LA, simply there were better dmen on each team. Sorry no names - draft.

Overall you are looking at a 3rd/4th dman on non-playoff or borderline teams who was never sought by solid or elite teams to bolster the team.

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08-08-2012, 04:46 PM
  #269
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Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
-Hillman was a guy I looked at, and I liked his AST record, but I was kinda turned off by literally everything else I read about him. He seemed like a part time defenseman. I'm pretty sure he only has 4 full NHL seasons and 3 full WHA seasons at the end of his career. with the rest of his career splitting time in the AHL and NHL because Imlach is crazy, correct?
It had less to do with Imlach and more to do with Tim Horton, Carl Brewer, Allan Stanley, Bob Baun, and Marcel Pronovost.

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08-08-2012, 04:51 PM
  #270
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vecens24
Not to say it's a bad pick. He's fine here, it's just I think you're overselling him.
Through all the rhetoric, this is basically my thought in Gibbs

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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
#1 dman. Not a claim to be taken seriously. With Minnesota was surrounded by veterans, listed above, plus a solid young veteran. The veterans minutes were managed to optimize by keeping them fresh. Barry Gibbs was always protected on the ice with a veteran or a solid young veteran. So the TOI minutes may be high but the responsibilities were low.

Atlanta/St.Louis/LA, simply there were better dmen on each team. Sorry no names - draft.

Overall you are looking at a 3rd/4th dman on non-playoff or borderline teams who was never sought by solid or elite teams to bolster the team.
I think you might be underestimating him though. He did receive a handful of votes for the postseason All Star Teams twice, so some people thought he was noteworthy.

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08-08-2012, 05:12 PM
  #271
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Thank You Votes

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Through all the rhetoric, this is basically my thought in Gibbs



I think you might be underestimating him though. He did receive a handful of votes for the postseason All Star Teams twice, so some people thought he was noteworthy.
Distinguish between thank you/appreciation votes from the local media types and league wise recognition. Close to recognizing fan club awards and voting or retired jerseys for expansion team heroes.

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08-08-2012, 05:17 PM
  #272
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Distinguish between thank you/appreciation votes from the local media types and league wise recognition. Close to recognizing fan club awards and voting or retired jerseys for expansion team heroes.
Yeah, but you seemed to be arguing he was a #3/4 on his own team despite the ice time numbers. But then why would he be the one thrown a few votes, rather than his teammates?

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08-08-2012, 05:19 PM
  #273
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Yeah, but you seemed to be arguing he was a #3/4 on his own team despite the ice time numbers. But then why would he be the one thrown a few votes, rather than his teammates?
There has always been a link between handful of AST votes and being liked by the media.

Tverdovsky got a handful of votes in '97 but he is considered a spare in the MLD. There are several undrafteds with a better voting record which makes me wonder about these incosistencies and obsessions with award/ast voting.


Last edited by jkrx: 08-08-2012 at 05:26 PM.
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08-08-2012, 05:21 PM
  #274
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If you want people to pay attention to your rants, you probably shouldn't preface them by accusing people who disagree with you of being "irrational" or "disingenuous."
LOL! Ok, but I just don’t have a better word to describe the behavior taking place when someone suddenly values Norris votes above all else and pretends all-star votes don’t exist, to suit an argument. Correct me if I’m wrong, but that is what you did there, from what I can see.

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Leading a team in ice time is nice. It's a lot more meaningful if it was a good team or a good defensive team. Even when Gibbs' teams were merely mediocre, their team defense sucked.
You assumed, you mean. In 1972 the Stars had the 2nd-best GAA in the league. In 1973 they were 5th. In 1976 the Flames were 4th. In 1977 they were a goal better than the league average. That’s four of nine right there.

1970 (2nd worst) and 1979 (worst) were the only two times that fit your story. 1975 works both ways: 37 games for the Stars (2nd worst), 39 games for the Flames (5th-best)

1974 and 1978 are the other two. In both cases his teams were below average but not horrible.

I take responsibility for this error, though. I clearly didn’t research this enough or do a good enough job demonstrating this to you before. These results surprised even me. I’m sure had you known this, you wouldn’t be chugging the choo-choo on the anti-Gibbs Train. (not sure where I got that from…)

Quote:
So I'm supposed to praise all your picks even ones that aren't all that special? Wouldn't that be politics? Seabrook was penciled in as our #6 defenseman by the way.
Awww, thanks, Schnookums.

And, hell no. But TBH, the whole Gibbs thing is unwarranted trashing of a pick.

Quote:
Ehrhoff has had several seasons now as a good offensive defenseman who is decent in his own zone. Guys like that don't exactly grow on trees now. Trash his performance in the 2011 playoffs all you want; Gibbs has 6 points in 36 playoff games, only once making it to the second round.
Decent in his own zone against weak competition, maybe.

We’re talking about 42, 44, and 50 point seasons, good for 23rd, 15th and 7th in the NHL… big deal, seriously! If that came along with a more beefed up career (years as a top pairing defenseman, being relied on defensively, etc), great, but do you mean to tell me defensemen with three 40+ point seasons aren’t available? There are plenty, and they played full careers too. Some of them were better defensively too. Ehrhoff only looks attractive at all right now because of these fool’s gold Norris votes.

And yes, obviously Gibbs doesn’t have much of a playoff resume.

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I assume the team drafting him is going to use him on the powerplay.
Me too. But not with 2 of the 4 best PP forwards in the league, I bet.

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08-08-2012, 05:30 PM
  #275
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Gibbs was nothing special and reminds me of a lot of the defensive defensemen drafted in the AA draft last year.

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