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The MLD 2012 Thread II

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Old
08-09-2012, 11:27 AM
  #326
tarheelhockey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Let's not confuse team with the individual.
That cuts both ways.

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As I told jkrx via PM before he made the pick, I suggest him for HIS squad (of Swedes; he told me he already was thinking of him).
That makes sense, as do the other reasons for picking him. Again, not a bad pick at this point.

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08-09-2012, 11:31 AM
  #327
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
I would think that this is a player whose ATD usefulness has receded with time. He is not held in the same esteem as he was 2-3 years ago.
Yeah, I agree with this. If there's one place I'm efficient, it's current players (yeah, go figure...) and Franzen is not regarded nearly as highly as he once was for a brief time. Since he's received his contract, he has looked a touch disinterested, without a high exertion of effort or force, lacking defensive play, etc. While his regular season production has remained relatively in line with his past, his on-ice play looks a bit different and much more spotty.

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08-09-2012, 11:37 AM
  #328
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
That cuts both ways.
You imply that his success in the playoffs is because of team success?

He led the team in playoff game winners, and tied for lead in goals with 13 in their 2008 Stanley Cup championship.

He led the team in goals and tied in game winners in the team's return to the Stanley Cup finals in 2009.

He led the team easily in points with 18 in 12 games in the team's 2nd round loss in 2010.

It wasn't like his production was pulled along in the wake of giants, like some Oilers and Habs were. He was front and in the middle of it all, getting it done, one of the main pieces of the puzzle.


Last edited by VanIslander: 08-09-2012 at 11:43 AM.
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08-09-2012, 11:43 AM
  #329
tarheelhockey
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With our 18th pick, 281st overall, the Winston-Salem Polar Twins select:

Dolly Swift, F/D

Prolific scorer of the early era. Versatile and intelligent, he will likely move around the lineup to fill roles as necessary.

Retro Hart 1894
AHAC Scoring Leader 1887, 1894

- Played both rover and defense.
- According to Hockey Historysis, Swift is just below the cut-off point for Hall of Fame worthiness. He ranks below Mike Grant but above Weldy Young.
- Either first or second in goals from 1887-1899
- Apparently he carried the puck one-handed, which proved to be distracting and difficult to play against.
- Had a fairly serious rivalry with Weldy Young. Games between them should be interesting.


Last edited by tarheelhockey: 09-21-2012 at 04:44 PM.
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08-09-2012, 11:44 AM
  #330
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
You imply that his success in the playoffs is because of team success?
You implied his lack of recent success is for the same reason.

I don't mind going either way. But it has to be one or the other.

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08-09-2012, 11:46 AM
  #331
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
Dolly Swift... Stanley Cup Champion 1895,... Career was cut short by WWI.
After his 20th season!

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08-09-2012, 11:50 AM
  #332
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
You imply that his success in the playoffs is because of team success?

He led the team in playoff game winners, and tied for lead in goals with 13 in their 2008 Stanley Cup championship.

He led the team in goals and tied in game winners in the team's return to the Stanley Cup finals in 2009.

He led the team easily in points with 18 in 12 games in the team's 2nd round loss in 2010.

It wasn't like his production was pulled along in the wake of giants, like some Oilers and Habs were. He was front and in the middle of it all, getting it done, one of the main pieces of the puzzle.
Yeah just stop saying this whole GWG thing like it matters. I went through and cataloged his GWG that playoffs.

One legitimately mattered. It was an overtime winner vs. Nashville in the first round.

In the second round, one was to put the team up 4-1 in the second period (team collapsed and Colorado got it back to a 4-3 loss), and one was to put the team up 3-1 in the first period in a game they won 8-2.

In the third round, one of those game winners was the second goal in a 5-1 win, and the other the second goal in a 4-1 win. Neither in the third period.

These GWG are a clever bit of smoke screening to make him look better than he is. Don't get me wrong, he is a good playoff performer, but let's not sell him with these game winners as the clutch player of a generation.

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08-09-2012, 11:52 AM
  #333
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tarheel, where are you planning on playing Swift? A forward spot I presume?

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08-09-2012, 11:54 AM
  #334
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With our 19th pick, 282nd overall, the Winston-Salem Polar Twins select:



Mike Karakas, G

Workhorse goalie with plenty of big-game experience. Not certain yet if he or Irbe will be the #1. Either way, neither of them need worry about being overplayed.

Stanley Cup Champion 1938
Stanley Cup Finalist 1944
NHL 2nd All Star Team 1945
Calder Trophy 1936
Inaugural inductee, US Hockey Hall of Fame 1973

- Renowned for his lightning-fast catching glove. He pioneered the modern trapper.
- Handled the puck well.
- Noted for stepping up his performance in key games, including a Stanley Cup win while wearing a boot over a broken toe.
- Led the NHL in shutouts in 1945.
- Was sent to the AHL over a $500 dispute with management, cutting his NHL career shorter than it should have been. He won a championship and achieved two postseason All Star Teams in the AHL.
- One wonders how he would be perceived if he had not played for the at-times-loony Blackhawks organization.

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08-09-2012, 11:55 AM
  #335
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
tarheel, where are you planning on playing Swift? A forward spot I presume?
Honestly, it'll depend on who I draft next at D.

Edit: to be more clear, I'm leaning toward using him as a forward over a D, but that might change if I don't like the looks of the defense group at the end of the draft.

Honestly, I'm thinking about holding him back as a spare who can fill in wherever injuries dictate. I'm still not crazy about putting rovers on the wing, but his skill seems to make it plausible at least.

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08-09-2012, 12:00 PM
  #336
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283. Velociraptor & Dwight - Sherbrooke Castors - ON THE CLOCK
284. Velociraptor & Dwight - Sherbrooke Castors - ON THE CLOCK

285. TheDevilMadeMe & Dreakmur - Zambia Mania (in the house)
286. TheDevilMadeMe & Dreakmur - Zambia Mania (in the house)
287. tony D - Chicago Blaze
288. tony D - Chicago Blaze

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08-09-2012, 12:16 PM
  #337
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Sherbrooke selects defensive forward Colin Patterson, RW



and a sufficient two-way defenseman, Gary Sargent, D



Seventies bio from last years' MLD

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08-09-2012, 12:49 PM
  #338
tarheelhockey
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I hemmed and hawed about Patterson. There are only, what, one or two guys left with a top-5 Selke finish?

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08-09-2012, 12:50 PM
  #339
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
IThere are only, what, one or two guys left with a top-5 Selke finish?
A single season of slightly significant voting?

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08-09-2012, 12:50 PM
  #340
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post

Dolly Swift, F/D


Stanley Cup Champion 1895, 1896, 1897 (2x), 1898, 1899
I think this is my fault as I had put that in a bio a few yeas ago, but I don't think Swift ever won. The error was caused assuming Swift had played his entire career with the Montreal Victorias (this was before Wikipedia had the rosters available) when he spent most of it with Quebec.

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08-09-2012, 12:53 PM
  #341
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
A single season of slightly significant voting?
And the rest of the field has 0

Edit: Also, Patterson's third-place finish with 6-11-10 is no less impressive to my eye than Tikkanen's second-place 8-8-9. Being on Tik's level is nothing to sniff at.

And Patterson's best year was in the services of a Cup winner. Also more than "slightly significant".


Last edited by tarheelhockey: 08-09-2012 at 01:00 PM.
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08-09-2012, 12:59 PM
  #342
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I'm out of here.

G'day.

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08-09-2012, 01:09 PM
  #343
tarheelhockey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hedberg View Post
I think this is my fault as I had put that in a bio a few yeas ago, but I don't think Swift ever won. The error was caused assuming Swift had played his entire career with the Montreal Victorias (this was before Wikipedia had the rosters available) when he spent most of it with Quebec.
Well, that's bad news for my bio! I suppose listing his non- Stanley challenge titles is an option, but frankly I find that format awkward and individual participation is terribly hard to track.

Suspect I will be reading a lot of Montreal Gazette in the near future.

By the way, does anyone know where to find a simple stat sheet for Swift? He's one of the few that isn't listed in any way on Wikipedia, hockeydb or hockey-reference.

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08-09-2012, 01:39 PM
  #344
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Quote:
Originally Posted by God Made Me
Dreak and I both know an ATD Champ who thought the best player in this draft went in the 12th round.
Why be anonymous about this stuff? Just say who the GM and player are.

I’ll make a guess here. It wasn’t me… It would not be arrbez, as he does not comment on MLD-related matters. It obviously wasn’t TDMM; he wouldn’t be talking to you during this draft. Pappyline and dreakmur don’t see eye to eye last I knew, so I doubt they talk, though I do give it an outside chance that it’s pappyline referring to Jim Morrison (the only player from pappy’s era from round 12).

So, the GM in question would have to be Sturminator or EB. Sturminator hasn’t logged in since May 18th so it isn’t him. EB must be the guy. I really doubt he’d make such a statement regarding any vanilla NHLer, so it’s already down to Amby Moran, Billy Gilmour, and Bob Trapp.

EB doesn’t comment on MLD matters very often and doesn’t have the same experience we do analyzing all these second tier players. Billy Gilmour, though, was an ATDer a few times during EB’s tenure as an ATD GM.

My final answer is that it’s EagleBelfour referring to Billy Gilmour. How close am I?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I value both. Either way, Gibbs' voting record doesn't stand out.
Among available players, it sure does.

Quote:
This is the part of his career I find less impressive. No All Star votes, even from hometown writers. Most goals against of any skater in the league in 1974, 7th worst in 1978, 2nd worst in 1979. So he continued to see a ton of minutes during this part of career,but doesn't seem to be a difference maker in these seasons.
Well of course that part of his career is less impressive, he can’t be the #1 defenseman on a top-5 defensive team 9 straight times; have even a dozen guys done that? The way you talk about it though, you make it sound like it doesn’t even matter that he was still his team’s best defenseman. The team sucked, and he was on the ice a lot and got scored a lot, he may as well have been the #3/4.

I don’t mind that you see those years as less impressive; they obviously are. It won’t be long before we’re drafting guys for whom seasons like this are their most impressive. But I feel that these statements are still a bit on the unfair side. Having the most goals against may be a symptom of inferior defensive play, but not if you’re getting a ton of ice time and especially not if you’re just the one getting the most ice time on a bad team. In the case of 1974, Gibbs did also lead the league in ESGA. However, the fact that he was not a hugely offensively oriented player and still finished 15th in ESGF as well, show that he was getting a ton of icetime. This is partially folding the formula back onto itself, but if you look at ESGA per minute he is really in just an average range for this season.

Even in the other two seasons he was 16th and 23rd in ESGF, so he was clearly getting a ton of ice time so it should not surprise you that on a drastically minus team he would have a ton of goals against.

The point of all this is, I think that in a roundabout way, being a highly relied upon, big-minute defenseman is being held against him, because if he was just the #3-4 on these teams, getting 21-22 minutes, he’d end up middle of the pack in goals against, and it wouldn’t be something you could point to and say “see, he was not very good defensively this year” when he’d actually be an inferior player those years to what he now appears to be.

I’m not trying to say those years are special at all, but to simply point to high GA total as evidence that they were poor, is also not the fairest way to judge them.

Quote:
Here is Ehrhoff's career:

2004, 2006, 2007: bottom pairing offensive specialist. Not historically noteworthy
2008: #2 defenseman on the 2nd best team in the league*
2009: #3/4 defenseman on the President's Trophy winner
2010: #1/2/3 defenseman on the 5th best team in the league**
2011: #2 defenseman on the President's Trophy winner
2012: #1 defenseman on an 18th place nonplayoff team

*he was #2/3 tweener after Campbell arrived but Campbell was only there 20 games
**1-3 were only separated by a few seconds
If it wasn’t for a few random Norris votes this resume wouldn’t look any different from a number of active defensemen, some of whom are available.

This is 5 somewhat significant seasons; it’s 2011 that stands out the most. 2012 is not very good; it may be an off-year for him and the team, or it may be a demonstration of what happens if Christian Ehrhoff is “the guy”.

Quantifying how impressive it is to be the #2 or #1/2/3 or #3/4 on a top-5 team in the league, as opposed to being “just another #1 on an average team” is guesswork at best, but my gut tells me that in 08, 09, 10, which are three of his 2nd-5th-most significant seasons, he was not considered a top-30 defenseman in the NHL, and was not as significant a player as Gibbs was in his best seasons, when he was the runaway TOI leader for top-5 defensive teams. At this point Gibbs quite easily has the more impressive resume, by virtue of peak and longevity, and if Ehrhoff adds 4 more years to his resume as either a middling #1 or a #2/3 who can put up some points on the PP but isn’t a defensive stalwart, then he still wouldn’t be there.

His edge is really just offensively, right? Even in offense he doesn’t drastically stand out... or does he stand out at all, aside from the PP? His best points finishes are 7th, 15th, 23rd (36th, 37th, 52nd, 54th at ES) Gibbs’ were 10th, 16th, 16th (10th, 15th, 17th, 19th at ES)

Quote:
Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
Palffy is long gone.
Wow!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Selfish Man View Post
Yeah, I guess you wouldn't.
Why the snippy comments?

And I still don’t know what you are talking about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Who were your favorite picks in the draft?

Here are some of mine. I'm not including our own picks

Round 1: Brian Campbell, Billy Taylor, Zach Parise
Round 2: Dubbie Kerr, Bob Dailey
Round 3: Barry Pederson, Paul Shmyr, Nikolai Drozdetsky
Round 4: Slava Bykov
Round 5: Marian Stastny, Moose Watson
Round 6: Syl Apps, Jr, Fred Scanlan
Round 7: Nicklas Backstrom, Jiri Lala
Round 8: Normie Himes
Round 9: Ulf Dahlen, JS Giguere
Round 10: Ted Hampson, Don Lever, Marty Turco
Round 11: Lou Fontinato, Marty Burke, Grant Warwick
Round 12: Don Grosso, Patrik Sundstrom
Round 13: Murph Chamberlain, Mike Fisher
Round 14: Brent Seabrook, Billy McGimsie
Round 15: Larry Patey, Sergei Babinov, Slim Halderson, Tony Gringas

I'll probably post again at the end of the draft with my favorite picks from the double rounds
I was on a roll there in rounds 12-14.

But I guess I had twice as many chances, so….

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Jim Roberts. Bowman had a creative way of double shifting based on game circumstances.You are assuming that Roberts was never double shifted as a defensive right winger, but he was replacing defensively unreliable young RWS like Guy Lafleur and Mario Tremblay during the 1972-75 period. Likewise Bowman would give him occasional dman shifts just to keep him game ready.
You’re right that I was assuming he was never double shifted as a defensive RW. I’m just not sure of how likely that is in a lot of cases.

Starting with 1968 in St. Louis. The TOI estimates based on GF/GA say he played 23 minutes. If that is true, he was two minutes ahead of Melnyk and Berenson, the team’s offensive leaders. This is not 100% unprecedented (see John Madden in the 2003 playoffs) but it’s really unlikely that as an exclusive forward he would get these kinds of minutes. If you think that the minutes are high, anything’s possible, but then it just means that goals for and against happened with a greater frequency when this defensively skilled and offensively modest forward was on the ice. Sounds counterintuitive. There had to have been a lot of defense time that year.

1969 could go either way. 20.6 minutes is not out of line for a forward like him. It was 2nd on St,. Louis, well behind Berenson, who was their Mr. Everything.

1970’s numbers of 18.8 minutes per game as a forward seem legit. In both 1969 and 1970 there are hints that there was some defense played, but I agree that it’s plausible to write these higher numbers off as double shifting on the wing. 1968, not so much.

In 1971 he got all-star votes on defense, but had very forward-like numbers otherwise (13 G, 18A, 10.6 shooting%) – this had to be a year where he flip flopped. 21.8 minutes a game is too high for a forward of his type (and would be 4 minutes more than anyone else) and too low for a defenseman worthy of a few all-star votes (it would have made him their #5) – this was definitely a swing year.

1972 looks like a forward year. TOI numbers appear a bit high (17.4) but this can just be doubleshifting, plus he changed teams halfway through, making judgment more tricky.

1973 looks like a clear forward year.

1974 looks like a clear defense year. His G:A ratio changed, shots dropped, shooting% dropped, icetime went up, and the GP for defensemen are short by 40 even if you assume he played D all year. If they played 5 D, then that still means he was a D-man for about 40 games. The percentage of goals on ice for that he participated in offensively, dropped drastically from 42%, to 31%.

1975 looks like another clear defense year, the same numerical indicators got even more drastic (with the exception of TOI)

1976 and 1977 – clearly a forward. Offensive participation spiked upwards again, 64% and 54%.

1978, clearly D. At that age he would not be 4th on the team in TOI among forwards, and he participated in less than 1/3 of the goals scored while he was on the ice. The six top forwards on the team averaged 71%.

Iain Fyffe’s thoughts on the topic:

Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord
About the only 3 things I can say 100% for sure are:

- he was a defenseman for the Habs pre-expansion
- he was a forward his last two seasons with the Habs
- he was a defenseman in 1978 with the Blues
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iain Fyffe
I agree with your three 100% points. I would also say:

- Pretty clearly D in 73/74 and 74/75.

- Pretty clearly RW in 71/72 (Mtl) and 72/73. Maybe a touch of D in 72/73, but not much if any.

- Pretty clearly RW in 69/70. Again maybe a touch of D.

- Pretty clearly D in 70/71.

- Most likely a mix of RW and D in 67/68, 68/69, and 71/72 (StL). I'd suggest something like a 50/50 split in the latter two years, and maybe 80/20 D/RW in the former.

Such are my educated guesses. He definitely has a high G:A for a defenceman some years, but the other data suggests a blueliner in those years.
Quote:
Barry Gibbs - named to the 1973 AS Game when it was an East / West event. West was mainly the weaker expansion division.
That doesn’t answer the question of why it was him that went when so many other defensemen were supposedly more valuable.

Quote:
Cliff Fletcher's comment. 1975 defensemen include Orr, Vadnais, Potvin, Lapointe, Robinson, Savard,Park, Salming,Turnbull, Burrows, White, Dick Redmond,Korab, Dailey, Greschner, Schoenfeld, Hajt, Dupont who were the competition that Gibbs faced for top 10. Doubt that he makes top 10.
All those guys had better careers. It doesn’t mean that as of 1975 they were all better. It’s also very possible that it was hyperbole, but then, why does Fletcher say this about Gibbs and not some other supposedly more valuable blueliner on his team?

Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
My favorites from the other teams:

Round 1: Tumba Johansson, Billy Reay, Andrei Khomutov
Round 2: Valery Kamensky, Steve Vickers, Dubbie Kerr
Round 3: Paul Shmyr, Kenny Jonsson, Pete Stemkowski
Round 4: Niklas Kronwall, Walt Buswell, Charlie Burns
Round 5: Mike Ricci, Doug Young, Moose Watson
Round 6: Tom Paton, Weldy Young, Craig Janney
Round 7: Don Maloney, Jocelyn Guevremont, Wally Hergesheimer
Round 8: Billy Breen, Normie Himes, Steve Payne
Round 9: Wayne Babych, Mike Ridley, Butch Keeling
Round 10: Wayne Merrick, Ted Hampson, Morris Lukowich
Round 11: Marty Burke, Joe Juneau, Don Smith
Round 12: P.J. Axelsson, Don Grosso, Kelly Kisio
Round 13: Brian Skrudland, Terry Crisp, Cliff Ronning
Round 14: Albert Langlois, Andre Pronovost, Bob MacMillan
Round 15: Slim Halderson, Jim Peplinski, Chico Maki

Rounds 6,8,11 were especially hard to only list three favorites!
You’ve warmed up to Peplinski, I see. I recall PMs a few MLDs back where you wanted him to fall and fall. Or maybe you still feel that way but he finally fell to where he’s a good value?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
1 - Tumba Johansson, Ulf Nilsson, Howard McNamara
2 - Bill Thoms , Dubbie Kerr, Jeff Brown
3 - Paul Shmyr, Jimmy Ward, Pete Stemkowski
4 - Vyacheslav Bykov, Charlie Burns, Gus Bodnar
5 - Mike Ricci, Doug Young, Bill Brydge
6 - Doc Romnes, Fred Scanlan, Tony McKegny
7 - Paul Haynes, Claude Larose, Mike O'Connell
8 - Ed Sandford, Drew Doughty, Johnny Mowers
9 - Eddie Wiseman, Vincent Lukac, Terry Ruskowski
10 - Anders Kallur, Ted Hampson, Wayne Merrick
11 - Skene Ronan, Marty Burke, Grant Warwick
12 - Kelly Kisio, Jim Morrison, Danny Grant
13 - Terry Crisp, John Sorrell, Barry Gibbs
14 - Billy McGimsie, Billy Harris, Bill Fairbairn (loved anybody named Bill, and these three picks a lot)
15 - Larry Patey, Slim Halderson, Steve Sullivan
16 - Charlie Sands, Michal Pivonka, Buzz Boll
I had no idea Shmyr was so popular. Glad to see you’ve warmed up to Warwick.

I also fixed round 13 for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
For the amount of respect you devote to Barry Gibbs, this is absolute hypocrisy. Ehrhoff is a much more well-rounded defenseman than you'd like to admit, I watch up to 30 Canuck games a year (living on the east coast is difficult lol), and I found he was a very complete defenseman, vastly improved from the one-dimensional defenseman he once was.
Well-rounded? Complete? against who?

All indications are that for the period of Ehrhoff’s career that is considered to be significant, he was not a well-rounded player. He started by getting low ES icetime against weaker competition and a higher percentage of starts in the offensive zone, and as he developed he got more ES icetime, but still against weaker competition and in offensive situations:

These are his rankings on his teams in the last 5 seasons, among all defensemen with 40+ games (so 6-8 defensemen) in ES TOI, Corsi Rel QoC (a measure of how good his opposition was), and Defensive Zone Starts (percentage of non-neutral zone shifts started in the defensive zone)

2008: 3rd, 3rd, 4th
2009: 3rd, 4th, 5th
2010: 2nd, 5th, 8th
2011: 1st, 5th, 7th
2012: 1st, 5th, 6th

Here is what those same numbers look for, for a guy who is truly relied on defensively by his coaches, Jay Bouwmeester:

2008: 1st, 1st, 2nd
2009: 1st, 1st, 2nd
2010: 1st, 3rd, 1st
2011: 1st, 2nd, 3rd
2012: 1st, 2nd, 1st

That is an all-around, two-way, well-rounded defenseman, not Ehrhoff.

Let’s be honest, we wouldn’t be having this conversation at all if 9 of 130 reporters in 2010 and 12 of 111 in 2011, hadn’t put him on their ballots. It’s the Norris voting that makes him look good, but if it was undeserved, where does that leave us?

You’ll have to explain why this is hypocrisy. With a guy like Barry Gibbs, who predates almost all of us, we have to go with what information we have, and make educated guesses. We also know that for him to end up on ballots despite being mostly a defensive defenseman says a lot more than “hockey card stats”-influenced votes. We have seen Ehrhoff play and we have advanced stats to show the underlying numbers behind the numbers, and they’re much more meaningful. Relying on Norris voting beyond the top-6 for very recent players is not a great idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Didn't Palffy used to slip to the MLD because he was soft and Euro and stuff? Ah the old days.

I have DaveG's list. He selects:

1 - G Gilles Meloche
2 - D Chris Phillips
Chris Phillips is a steal. He should have gone around 795th in the main draft.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
http://broadstreetbullies.blogspot.c...-sinisalo.html

Two 70 point seasons is decent for a bottom 6 winger. A career adjusted PPG of .586 is pretty good for a bottom 6 winger. Pelletier overstates his "regular penalty killing" a good bit, but it appears that he did a bit of it. Combine the fact that he was almost never healthy(never reached 80 games), I don't have a problem with the pick. Not including his last season where he played just 3 games and probably decided to just hang them up, he averaged only 57.9 games a season.
- The fact that he was almost never healthy is not a good thing.
- He killed “some” penalties, but just 15% on his career… nothing too special.
- He averaged 38 adjusted ESP per 80 games… Jim Peplinski, seen as a grunt, averaged 42 himself.
- It’s easy to throw out numbers like that and they “sound” nice but what really matters is, how much better could you do at this point? What are those numbers like for other undrafted players? The answer in a lot of cases is, much better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
You've basically nailed what I was planning on doing. Except for the Nedved part, I'm not at all a fan of his. Here's now it looks right now:

_____-McGimsie-Hergesheimer
Mickoski-Reay-Stoughton
_____-Stemkowski-Christian
_____-______-_____
Nedved

Cooper-Hillman
Babinov-McKenny
Picard-_____
Tverdovsky, Moran

Ranford

Do you know something about Amby Moran that I don't? He looks like garbage to me. An uneventful career in the NHL, and maybe three relevant seasons in the WCHL? What was his competition like the WCHL? Bullet Joe Simpson is the only other defenseman I know of from that league. In the time they were in the league together, Simpson had 99 points in 113 games(.876PPG) and Moran had 45 points in 88 games(.511PPG). Is that it?
Not sure that he’s garbage, but yeah, I admit I was giving him the benefit of the doubt a bit (or a lot) – I can see him as a spare unless better info came up. I was somewhat skeptical of him even when he went in the 1800s last year. I also didn’t anticipate you taking a guy on the “damn shame” list… Hillman definitely belongs up there on the top pairing with this lineup.

But come on, you know more about the WCHL than that. Eddie Shore, Herb Gardiner, Red Dutton, Bob Trapp, Percy Traub….


Last edited by seventieslord: 08-09-2012 at 02:19 PM.
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08-09-2012, 02:16 PM
  #345
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
Notable WCHL Defensemen, Offensively

PlayerGamesGoalsAssistsPointsPPGDraft Position
Joe Simpson113574299.876305
Percy Traub104171633.317959
Red Dutton93312051.548328
Amby Moran88341145.511984
Bob Trapp107232447.439991
Herb Gardiner103311849.476205

Okay, so he's better offensively than Trapp, Gardiner, and Traub but never received any all star recognition in terms of the WCHL. Seems like a puckmover with somewhat questionable defensive abilities.
He played a lot of forward. IIRC, it was close to 50/50. Look him up at Iain’s site: hockeyhistorysis.blogspot.ca

Determining his offensive value as a defenseman compared to these guys is practically impossible, as most of them were just defensemen, and we don’t have a breakdown of what he did at what position, obviously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
LOL, nobody else noticed (I didn't even bother checking when I picked for him). Let me find the next name on his list.

Edit: Dave's makeup pick is

3 - RW Willi Plett
Another great “goon who can play”.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
BIF selects:

Johan Franzen, W
Marcus Ragnarsson, D
Kim Johnsson, D
Leif "Honken" Holmqvist, G

Can someone PM Farkas?
Holmqvist, Johnsson and Ragnarsson are both very good picks. Franzen, not so much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Franzen's best three PLAYOFF years ended in 2010, scoring 59 of his 73 career playoff points in a 3-year span. But in the regular season, 10 of his 29 goals in 2011/12 were game winning goals, that's more GWGs last season than Datsyuk and Zetterberg COMBINED!!! His 3rd, 4th, 6th and last, 7th season in the NHL regular season are significant, his 5th season only significant for the fact that it has one of his three great NHL playoffs.
I agree with vecens, GWG stats are horrible and are almost always smoke and mirrors.

Franzen is an ok player but his offensive output is abysmal considering who he has played with. Yes, he is a finisher, but not a good playmaker. A peak of 59 points despite playing on the top line with Datsyuk and/or Zetterberg.

He has some “4th line skills” as I like to call them, but I have about 50 guys on my list who have 4th line skills, and also have longer, more filled out careers that usually include superior offensive production without the help of these elite linemates.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
With our 18th pick, 281st overall, the Winston-Salem Polar Twins select:

Dolly Swift, F/D

Prolific scorer of the early era. Versatile and intelligent, he will likely move around the lineup to fill roles as necessary.

Stanley Cup Champion 1895, 1896, 1897 (2x), 1898, 1899
Retro Hart 1894
AHAC Scoring Leader 1887, 1894

- Career was cut short by WWI.
- Played both rover and defense.
- According to Hockey Historysis, Swift is just below the cut-off point for Hall of Fame worthiness. He ranks below Mike Grant but above Weldy Young.
- Either first or second in goals from 1887-1899
- Apparently he carried the puck one-handed, which proved to be distracting and difficult to play against.
- Had a fairly serious rivalry with Weldy Young. Games between them should be interesting.
Career cut short by WW1? He was born in 1866! He was 50 when players left for WW1.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
Sherbrooke selects defensive forward Colin Patterson, RW



and a sufficient two-way defenseman, Gary Sargent, D



Seventies bio from last years' MLD
Sargent was on the “Damn Shame” list, which shouldn’t surprise anyone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
A single season of slightly significant voting?
Which he damn well earned, by being a very good defensive forward, not a scorer who backchecked.

He was 3rd on a cup winner in playoff +/- that year too, despite not being a major factor offensively.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hedberg View Post
I think this is my fault as I had put that in a bio a few yeas ago, but I don't think Swift ever won. The error was caused assuming Swift had played his entire career with the Montreal Victorias (this was before Wikipedia had the rosters available) when he spent most of it with Quebec.
Yeah, you’re right, Swift never won.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
Well, that's bad news for my bio! I suppose listing his non- Stanley challenge titles is an option, but frankly I find that format awkward and individual participation is terribly hard to track.

Suspect I will be reading a lot of Montreal Gazette in the near future.

By the way, does anyone know where to find a simple stat sheet for Swift? He's one of the few that isn't listed in any way on Wikipedia, hockeydb or hockey-reference.
Wow, I never realized that I could significantly add to the Dolly Swift discussion by just checking his SIHR page!

1880-1881 Quebec H/C AHAC 1 0 0 0
1881-1882 Quebec H/C AHAC 1 0 1 1
1882-1883 Quebec H/C AHAC 4 0 -- 0
1883-1884 Quebec H/C AHAC 2 0 0 0
1885-1886 Quebec H/C AHAC 2 -- -- --
1886-1887 Montreal Victorias AHAC 4 8 * -- 8 *
1888-1889 Quebec H/C AHAC 3 0 -- 0
1892-1893 Quebec H/C AHAC 8 11 -- 11
1893-1894 Quebec H/C AHAC 8 11 -- 11
1894-1895 Quebec H/C AHAC 6 10 -- 10
1895-1896 Quebec H/C AHAC 8 8 -- 8
1896-1897 Quebec H/C AHAC 8 6 -- 6
1897-1898 Quebec H/C AHAC 6 3 -- 3
1898-1899 Quebec H/C CAHL 1 0 -- 0
Totals 62 57 1 58

Swift never won the cup or played for a team that challenged for it. Of course, he played a dozen years before the cup was awarded.

Not sure if he has any pre-stanley cup AHAC titles or what their significance would be if he did.

He was on my radar for spares; he was one of the top scorers of this era, and not just a 1-2 year wonder like a lot of guys were, either.


Last edited by seventieslord: 08-09-2012 at 02:27 PM.
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08-09-2012, 02:21 PM
  #346
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
tarheel, where are you planning on playing Swift? A forward spot I presume?
Unless he digs up a lot more, play him at F. Right now the only thing we know about Swift is that he scored a lot of goals in the really early years, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
With our 19th pick, 282nd overall, the Winston-Salem Polar Twins select:



Mike Karakas, G

Workhorse goalie with plenty of big-game experience. Not certain yet if he or Irbe will be the #1. Either way, neither of them need worry about being overplayed.

Stanley Cup Champion 1938
Stanley Cup Finalist 1944
NHL 2nd All Star Team 1945
Calder Trophy 1936
Inaugural inductee, US Hockey Hall of Fame 1973

- Renowned for his lightning-fast catching glove. He pioneered the modern trapper.
- Handled the puck well.
- Noted for stepping up his performance in key games, including a Stanley Cup win while wearing a boot over a broken toe.
- Led the NHL in shutouts in 1945.
- Was sent to the AHL over a $500 dispute with management, cutting his NHL career shorter than it should have been. He won a championship and achieved two postseason All Star Teams in the AHL.
- One wonders how he would be perceived if he had not played for the at-times-loony Blackhawks organization.
All Star record 2*, 3*, 3, 5 and a great playoff run as a rookie?
*War Year

I think he's better than Irbe


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 08-09-2012 at 02:29 PM.
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08-09-2012, 02:22 PM
  #347
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Unless he digs up a lot more, play him at F. Right now the only thing we know about Swift is that he scored a lot of goals in the really early years, right?



All Star record 2*, 3*, 3, 5 and a great playoff run as a rookie?

I think he's better than Irbe
That sounds like what Cam Ward would be if he had a full career under his belt so far.

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08-09-2012, 02:29 PM
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I realize I'm on the clock btw; this might take a little while

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08-09-2012, 02:36 PM
  #349
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
H
Career cut short by WW1? He was born in 1866! He was 50 when players left for WW1.
LOL... I wasn't thinking when I wrote that. He left hockey for the military, and served in WWI, but the two were not the same event. 15 years between them.



Quote:
Wow, I never realized that I could significantly add to the Dolly Swift discussion by just checking his SIHR page!
Thanks, that will save me a considerable amount of time tracking down the years and teams.


Quote:
Not sure if he has any pre-stanley cup AHAC titles or what their significance would be if he did.
About the same significance as if it were a Stanley Cup title. The Cup itself, of course, is not that big a deal when applied to players of that time frame.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Unless he digs up a lot more, play him at F. Right now the only thing we know about Swift is that he scored a lot of goals in the really early years, right?
His exploits against Weldy Young are recorded, and give us a sense of his personality. His LOH page says he carried the puck in a strange and distracting fashion, from which we can infer that he was an effective if unorthodox stickhandler.

Beyond that, I'll have to see what I can pull from the newspapers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
That sounds like what Cam Ward would be if he had a full career under his belt so far.
I agree. Of course as a Hurricanes fan I see Ward as one of the most underrated goalies out there.

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08-09-2012, 02:41 PM
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I agree about the last Cam Ward comment. I was considering him for this thing and was surprised by the lack of acknowledgement for him. He's a terrific goalie and keeps Carolina from slipping into disarray a lot of the time...

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