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The MLD 2012 Thread II

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Old
08-09-2012, 02:44 PM
  #351
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
I agree about the last Cam Ward comment. I was considering him for this thing and was surprised by the lack of acknowledgement for him. He's a terrific goalie and keeps Carolina from slipping into disarray a lot of the time...
Seems like unintentional pro-modern bias to me. I'm sure there were plenty of good goalies throughout history who weren't quite good enough to be recognized as among the best of their era.

And I say this as a fan of a team Ward has owned in the playoffs more than once.

Edit: I think Ward is guy we expect to be consistently dominant because we know he can be sometimes; but then he just isn't. I know I had him as a pre-season Vezina candidate going into 2009-10 and... He just didn't do it


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 08-09-2012 at 02:56 PM.
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08-09-2012, 02:57 PM
  #352
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Seems like pro-modern bias to me. I'm sure there were plenty of good goalies throughout history who weren't quite good enough to be recognized as among the best of their era.

And I say this as a fan of a team Ward has owned in the playoffs more than once
I would say that Ward has been nibbling at the edges of top-5 status for at least 2-3 years now. That doesn't put him above the obvious greats of this era, but it does at least make him a legit MLD pick doesn't it?

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08-09-2012, 03:07 PM
  #353
Mike Farkas
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Seems like pro-modern bias to me. I'm sure there were plenty of good goalies throughout history who weren't quite good enough to be recognized as among the best of their era.

And I say this as a fan of a team Ward has owned in the playoffs more than once
It probably is. I was just agreeing with an agreeable point because I've seen it with my own eyes - which I'll continue to trust more than anything, right or wrong. As the media becomes less and less knowledgeable about the sport, the line between "insider" and "fan" blurs and the value of goaltending slides downward at about the same rate the influence of a coach slides upward, more and more goalies like Ward will get lost in the shuffle.

As an aside, that's more or less off topic: It's funny, I remember being a fan of Ward before he came into the league and when he joined Carolina said that he was going to be a terrific goalie. And I think he had some brutal numbers or something as a rookie and a lot of people I regularly conversed with at the time were giving me the business for it, "ah, he's no good...see!" ...then he wins the Conn Smythe (which I didn't agree with, but who cares, I don't have a vote) and then my thought was, "well, he's not that good..." and I kind of turned on him, thinking he'd get overrated...and now that he's relatively anonymous (in terms of his ability to garner AS Team votes, Vezina votes, etc.) I'm back in his corner again...

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08-09-2012, 03:30 PM
  #354
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Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
It probably is. I was just agreeing with an agreeable point because I've seen it with my own eyes - which I'll continue to trust more than anything, right or wrong. As the media becomes less and less knowledgeable about the sport, the line between "insider" and "fan" blurs and the value of goaltending slides downward at about the same rate the influence of a coach slides upward, more and more goalies like Ward will get lost in the shuffle.

As an aside, that's more or less off topic: It's funny, I remember being a fan of Ward before he came into the league and when he joined Carolina said that he was going to be a terrific goalie. And I think he had some brutal numbers or something as a rookie and a lot of people I regularly conversed with at the time were giving me the business for it, "ah, he's no good...see!" ...then he wins the Conn Smythe (which I didn't agree with, but who cares, I don't have a vote) and then my thought was, "well, he's not that good..." and I kind of turned on him, thinking he'd get overrated...and now that he's relatively anonymous (in terms of his ability to garner AS Team votes, Vezina votes, etc.) I'm back in his corner again...

I'm kinda the same way.

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08-09-2012, 04:20 PM
  #355
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I'm kinda the same way.
Yeah, more broadly, I see a couple similiarities in our posting styles actually. The same way you are "protective" (so to speak) of this kind of study (these drafts/lists, etc.) making sure things are in the "right" spot as you see it...I'm very similar with the present-day NHL. Very sensitive to how players are thought of today...I'm rather serious about it, I have scouting notes written on paper, in notebooks, on napkins, in programs, on my computer, where ever, of players in my "wheelhouse" of hockey fanaticism - I haven't been to a professional hockey game at any level and not taken down some sort of notes in probably 10 years. Most of the time, I find myself going to games locally (I'm a fairly short distance from the Rangers, Devils and Flyers arenas, but not a fan of any of them) when players I've never seen live before are called up just to see them ().

In this ATD environment, I'm back to full-on student-of-the-game mode. Quite challenging, but enjoyable.

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08-09-2012, 04:25 PM
  #356
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Holmqvist, Johnsson and Ragnarsson are both very good picks. Franzen, not so much.



I agree with vecens, GWG stats are horrible and are almost always smoke and mirrors.

Franzen is an ok player but his offensive output is abysmal considering who he has played with. Yes, he is a finisher, but not a good playmaker. A peak of 59 points despite playing on the top line with Datsyuk and/or Zetterberg.

He has some “4th line skills” as I like to call them, but I have about 50 guys on my list who have 4th line skills, and also have longer, more filled out careers that usually include superior offensive production without the help of these elite linemates.
Franzen is most valuable in the playoffs, not the regular season. When physical play goes up a level he increases his play or used to. He has been a bit of a floater the last season or so.

I find it funny that people criticize this pick so much even though hes the 6th best playoff scorer (in raw stats) since the lock-out. I find him to be of the top 4th line wingers in this draft.

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08-09-2012, 04:34 PM
  #357
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Incomplete

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Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
Yeah just stop saying this whole GWG thing like it matters. I went through and cataloged his GWG that playoffs.

One legitimately mattered. It was an overtime winner vs. Nashville in the first round.

In the second round, one was to put the team up 4-1 in the second period (team collapsed and Colorado got it back to a 4-3 loss), and one was to put the team up 3-1 in the first period in a game they won 8-2.

In the third round, one of those game winners was the second goal in a 5-1 win, and the other the second goal in a 4-1 win. Neither in the third period.

These GWG are a clever bit of smoke screening to make him look better than he is. Don't get me wrong, he is a good playoff performer, but let's not sell him with these game winners as the clutch player of a generation.
Not picking on you, just want to make a point.

People tend to be dismissive of the GWG stat because they are not willing to consider the various other "Goal" related stats.

First goal of the game, tying goal, insurance goal, go ahead goal, shoot out goal, are all descriptive of a player's contribution.

Team's keep such data and more.

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08-09-2012, 04:39 PM
  #358
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Not picking on you, just want to make a point.

People tend to be dismissive of the GWG stat because they are not willing to consider the various other "Goal" related stats.

First goal of the game, tying goal, insurance goal, go ahead goal, shoot out goal, are all descriptive of a player's contribution.

Team's keep such data and more.
Oh no I fully agree. Within context, goal stats can be useful. But in this scenario, Franzen's "GWGs" were not useful to show his actual "clutch" goal scoring ability, which is the context they were being used in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
Franzen is most valuable in the playoffs, not the regular season. When physical play goes up a level he increases his play or used to. He has been a bit of a floater the last season or so.

I find it funny that people criticize this pick so much even though hes the 6th best playoff scorer (in raw stats) since the lock-out. I find him to be of the top 4th line wingers in this draft.
I see no reason he is better than Martin Gelinas. None at all. Gelinas's effort is NEVER in question, has the playoff resume, and showed the ability to score with "normal quality" linemates as opposed to premier linemates like Datsyuk and Zetterberg. All of that, and his regular season resume is STILL superior. I don't think Franzen is a bad pick here, but he's not a top 4th liner by any means either. Among already drafted ones: Gelinas, Boll, Dustin Brown. And I'm sure that there will be others.

(And I really like Gelinas here, but I don't know that I'd call him super elite in the role either. Maybe he is and I just haven't looked close enough at the rest of them).

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08-09-2012, 04:42 PM
  #359
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Consistency

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
Franzen is most valuable in the playoffs, not the regular season. When physical play goes up a level he increases his play or used to. He has been a bit of a floater the last season or so.

I find it funny that people criticize this pick so much even though hes the 6th best playoff scorer (in raw stats) since the lock-out. I find him to be of the top 4th line wingers in this draft.
Issue is consistency. Getting to the playoffs being the first objective requires difference makers during the regular season. This makes the Franzen pick interesting.

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08-09-2012, 04:49 PM
  #360
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Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
Oh no I fully agree. Within context, goal stats can be useful. But in this scenario, Franzen's "GWGs" were not useful to show his actual "clutch" goal scoring ability, which is the context they were being used in.



I see no reason he is better than Martin Gelinas. None at all. Gelinas's effort is NEVER in question, has the playoff resume, and showed the ability to score with "normal quality" linemates as opposed to premier linemates like Datsyuk and Zetterberg. All of that, and his regular season resume is STILL superior.

(And I really like Gelinas here, but I don't know that I'd call him super elite in the role either. Maybe he is and I just haven't looked close enough at the rest of them).
Gelinas is also a supreme 4th liner in this draft. I didn't say I thought Franzen was number 1!

The reasons I picked Franzen.

1) He has a good skillset for a 4th line and a big body.

2) great playoff resume

3) Is a good compliment to Pettersson and "Dubbel-Nisse", he will create space for them.

4) His PPG in the regular season is 0.58 which is not bad but definitly not great. He does however have a PPG of 0.82 in the playoffs.

Edit: Also I wouldnt exactly call Gelinas regular seasons superior and his playoff resume is not as good as Franzens.


Last edited by jkrx: 08-09-2012 at 04:59 PM.
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08-09-2012, 04:55 PM
  #361
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Issue is consistency. Getting to the playoffs being the first objective requires difference makers during the regular season. This makes the Franzen pick interesting.
Thats why he's on the 4th line. 4th lines usually just provides energy and to put a little pressure in the offensive zone while the rest of the team takes a little breather. I have two great puck controllers on Franzens line so his job will be creating space, getting in front of the net and digging for pucks.

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08-09-2012, 05:09 PM
  #362
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Mike Karakas was at the top of my goalie list here. I think his 763 pick last year was a little bit premature though.

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08-09-2012, 05:10 PM
  #363
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
Gelinas is also a supreme 4th liner in this draft. I didn't say I thought Franzen was number 1!

The reasons I picked Franzen.

1) He has a good skillset for a 4th line and a big body.

2) great playoff resume

3) Is a good compliment to Pettersson and "Dubbel-Nisse", he will create space for them.

4) His PPG in the regular season is 0.58 which is not bad but definitly not great. He does however have a PPG of 0.82 in the playoffs.

Edit: Also I wouldnt exactly call Gelinas regular seasons superior and his playoff resume is not as good as Franzens.
His regular season is certainly superior. Franzen's playoff scoring is certainly better.

Regular season: Franzen: 4 25 goal seasons, 1 30 goal season. 3 other 10+ goal seasons. 1 59 point season. 2 other 50+ point seasons. No other 40+ seasons.

Gelinas: 2 30 goal seasons, 5 20 goal seasons, 4 more 15 goal seasons, and 6 more 10-15 goal seasons. 4 50 point seasons, 1 65 point season. 3 other 40+ seasons.

Franzen's playoffs are better on the whole for sure. But Gelinas is another guy who raises game for the playoffs, along with bringing strong checking line intangibles. Franzen is a guy who I think might get disinterested playing on a 4th line without top-flight playmaker.

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08-09-2012, 05:23 PM
  #364
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For our first pick, we select a big shut down defenseman:

Scott Hannan, D

-played 5 of 6 games for Team Canada at the 2004 World Cup of Hockey
-also played for Canada at the 2005 World Championships
-received a handful of All-Star votes in 2007, finishing 19th

-averaged 21:47 over 908 regular season games for teams that made the playoffs (in a 30 team league) 9/13 times
-averaged 23:17 over 82 playoff games


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
Hannan became a mainstay on the Sharks blueline from the 2000–01 season and evolved as an effective, gritty shut down defensman, earning selection as an NHL All-Star for the Western Conference in the 2003–2004 Season. Hannan emerged as a premier defenceman during the 2003–04 playoffs gaining praise for his performance in shutting down star center Peter Forsberg in the conference semi-final win against Colorado.[1] Hannan played his 500th NHL game at the end of the 2006–07 season in a 4-3 loss to the Colorado Avalanche on March 18, 2007.[2]
Quote:
Originally Posted by THN
ASSETS: Has good size at 6-1, 225 pounds and uses it effectively to play a tight defensive game. Is able to combine a physical defensive game with discipline. Can log a ton of minutes and leads by example.

FLAWS: Won't ever put up big offensive numbers, which is partly due to the fact that he's usually the first one back in terms of offense-defense transition. Is also somewhat limited in terms of natural offensive instincts.

CAREER POTENTIAL: Veteran defensive defenseman.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 08-09-2012 at 05:30 PM.
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08-09-2012, 05:27 PM
  #365
Rob Scuderi
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
He played a lot of forward. IIRC, it was close to 50/50. Look him up at Iain’s site: hockeyhistorysis.blogspot.ca
Nah we had this discussion last year when comparing Moran to your man. His statline is awkward for a defenseman but it seems to stand up.

Here's Iain's profile btw, nothing about him playing up front. http://hockeyhistorysis.blogspot.com...l/Amby%20Moran

Here's the bio I did on him in the Single-A draft http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=129

Since he's one of my "babies" (to borrow a phrase from Mark) I probably should be lobbying for him, but I was thinking about taking him in the AA if we had it this year, not the MLD. He's big, physical, and scored a lot of goals, but his offense didn't translate to the NHL. It wasn't like he was a stalwart either so I'm not sure I can buy him going so soon. He could probably play on the PP because he was a good rusher and could score, but he's no slam dunk.

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08-09-2012, 05:29 PM
  #366
jkrx
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Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
His regular season is certainly superior. Franzen's playoff scoring is certainly better.

Regular season: Franzen: 4 25 goal seasons, 1 30 goal season. 3 other 10+ goal seasons. 1 59 point season. 2 other 50+ point seasons. No other 40+ seasons.

Gelinas: 2 30 goal seasons, 5 20 goal seasons, 4 more 15 goal seasons, and 6 more 10-15 goal seasons. 4 50 point seasons, 1 65 point season. 3 other 40+ seasons.

Franzen's playoffs are better on the whole for sure. But Gelinas is another guy who raises game for the playoffs, along with bringing strong checking line intangibles. Franzen is a guy who I think might get disinterested playing on a 4th line without top-flight playmaker.
He has a pretty good playmaker in "Dubbel-Nisse" and my guess would be that if we are going into the whole fantasy of what players think of playing on the lower lines the ATD would eventually collapse.

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08-09-2012, 05:34 PM
  #367
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
Franzen is most valuable in the playoffs, not the regular season. When physical play goes up a level he increases his play or used to. He has been a bit of a floater the last season or so.

I find it funny that people criticize this pick so much even though hes the 6th best playoff scorer (in raw stats) since the lock-out. I find him to be of the top 4th line wingers in this draft.
Well for sure, his best work has been done in the playoffs, no doubt there.

Actually, does history have a player right now whose career value is so heavily dependent on the playoffs? I'm not sure there is one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Issue is consistency. Getting to the playoffs being the first objective requires difference makers during the regular season.
True.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
Edit: Also I wouldnt exactly call Gelinas regular seasons superior and his playoff resume is not as good as Franzens.
He did play a ton of games including many in the DPE, often as an underdog against powerhouse teams, and has a history of well-known clutch goals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
For our first pick, we select a big shut down defenseman:

Scott Hannan, D

-played 5 of 6 games for Team Canada at the 2004 World Cup of Hockey
-also played for Canada at the 2005 World Championships
-received a handful of All-Star votes in 2007, finishing 19th

-averaged 21:47 over 908 regular season games for teams that made the playoffs (in a 30 team league) 9/13 times
-averaged 23:17 over 82 playoff games
He was on "the list". I bet you knew that though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi
Nah we had this discussion last year when comparing Moran to your man. His statline is awkward for a defenseman but it seems to stand up.

Here's Iain's profile btw, nothing about him playing up front. http://hockeyhistorysis.blogspot.com...l/Amby%20Moran

Here's the bio I did on him in the Single-A draft http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=129

Since he's one of my "babies" (to borrow a phrase from Mark) I probably should be lobbying for him, but I was thinking about taking him in the AA if we had it this year, not the MLD. He's big, physical, and scored a lot of goals, but his offense didn't translate to the NHL. It wasn't like he was a stalwart either so I'm not sure I can buy him going so soon. He could probably play on the PP because he was a good rusher and could score, but he's no slam dunk.
Alright then, I stand corrected. And I agree, I wouldn't take him this early.

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08-09-2012, 05:45 PM
  #368
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
He did play a ton of games including many in the DPE, often as an underdog against powerhouse teams, and has a history of well-known clutch goals.
My comparison was definitly not about downplaying Gelinas playoff resume. He was a great performer too, just not as great as Franzens. Franzen is more of a Sandström kind of player though if Sandström were bigger that is. Great agitator and can be quite nasty at times, scores important goals and is a competitor who never gives up.

Edit: and thats 3 clutch goals in the same playoffs.

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08-09-2012, 05:48 PM
  #369
Rob Scuderi
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Franzen's a guy who should have taken off the past few years after one of his playoffs but just never has. I don't know how many accounts of Wings fans complaining about him floating through the year I've read. That doesn't make him a bad 4th liner per se, but inconsistent definitely seems fair.

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08-09-2012, 05:51 PM
  #370
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Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi View Post
Franzen's a guy who should have taken off the past few years after one of his playoffs but just never has. I don't know how many accounts of Wings fans complaining about him floating through the year I've read. That doesn't make him a bad 4th liner per se, but inconsistent definitely seems fair.
It's true that he has been floating a bit too much during the regular season in the past couple of years but I dont think it applies to his playoffs. He really tried against Nashville for example.

This comes to mind.


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08-09-2012, 05:52 PM
  #371
TheDevilMadeMe
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We shall pick the best coach in AHL history,

Bun Cook, Coach

Cook coaches the Providemce Reds from 1938-1943 and the prestigious Cleveland Barons from 1944-1956.

I'm generally more skeptical of "minor league" coaches than most, but when Cook coached, the AHL was an adult league and was the second best league in the world (though it's possible the USSR had caught the AHL by the end of Cook's tenure).

Summary of his credentials

Quote:
- 7 Calder Cups (1938, 1940, 1945, 1948, 1951, 1953, 1954)
- 3-Time Calder Cup Finalist (1944, 1946, 1950)
- 6-Time AHL 1st Team All-Star (1939, 1940, 1941, 1942, 1944, 1945)
- AHL 2nd Team All-Star (1943)
- 636-413-122 in 1171 AHL games (.595)
- 75-61 in 136 AHL playoff games (.551)
- 10 Regular season titles
- Qualified for playoffs in 18 of 19 seasons
The NHL stopped naming "All Star coaches" after WW2, I think it's likely that the AHL did too.

Here is an old profile loaded with quotes:
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=141

Bun Cook spent the majority of his time in the AHL coaching the Cleveland Barons, an independent team that was widely considered the 7th best hockey club in the world after the 6 NHL teams. The Barons petitioned the NHL to accept them but the old boys' club rejected adding a 7th team after the War:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wikipedia
For many years, the team was owned by Al Sutphin, who was also an owner of the Braden-Sutphin Ink Company in Cleveland.[1] Sutphin, a true sportsman, was known to often pay better salaries than NHL teams at the time ('30s and '40s), and some players preferred to remain in "minor league" Cleveland instead of playing in the "major" NHL. Sutphin built the Cleveland Arena, at the time one of the largest and most beautiful hockey facilities in North America. It was rumored that the dormant Montreal Maroons franchise would be transferred to Cleveland but nothing came of it.[2]
Sutphin sold the team and arena in 1949. The Barons sought acceptance into the National Hockey League during the early 1950s, but purported financing irregularities caused the NHL to turn down the bid. The Barons then challenged the NHL for the right to play for the Stanley Cup, which was also rejected. During the '40s and '50s, the Barons played to standing-room-only audiences.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clevela...ons_(1937–1973)

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08-09-2012, 06:04 PM
  #372
Rob Scuderi
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It's true that he has been floating a bit too much during the regular season in the past couple of years but I dont think it applies to his playoffs. He really tried against Nashville for example.

This comes to mind.

Oh I agree, his statlines the past two post-seasons don't look like his monster years before but people seem to have much less of an issue with his effort come playoff time.

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08-09-2012, 06:40 PM
  #373
tony d
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With Pick 287 Chicago selects their backup goalie, Gerry Mcneil



- Career record of 119-105-52
- 4 20 Win Seasons
- 3 Time All Star

For more on Mcneil click the following link:

http://habslegends.blogspot.ca/2008/...ry-mcneil.html

With Pick 288 Chicago picks Right Winger Ray Sheppard:



Some stats on Sheppard:

-6 30 Goal Seasons
-357 Goals in 817 games
-79th All Time in Career Power Play Goals with 125.

http://www.legendsofhockey.net/Legen...p?player=11491





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Last edited by tony d: 08-10-2012 at 12:43 PM. Reason: I'm having the worse luck with Right Wingers this year
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08-09-2012, 07:34 PM
  #374
Canadiens1958
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Danny Gare

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Originally Posted by tony d View Post
With Pick 287 Chicago selects their backup goalie, Gerry Mcneil



- Career record of 119-105-52
- 6 Top 10 finishes in wins for a season
- 3 Time All Star

For more on Mcneil click the following link:

http://habslegends.blogspot.ca/2008/...ry-mcneil.html

With Pick 288 Chicago picks Right Winger Danny Gare



Some stats on Gare:

- 354 Goals in 827 Games
- 5 30 Goal Seasons
- 2 Time All Star

For more on Gare click the following link:

http://www.legendsofhockey.net/Legen...p?player=12682

Next has been pmed
Believe Danny Gare was picked in the last ATD.

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Old
08-09-2012, 07:38 PM
  #375
TheDevilMadeMe
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Danny Gare? If a guy who once led the NHL league in goals and played a good defensive game was available this late in the MLD, he'd be the steal of the draft.

Gerry McNeil is a very good pick at this point though.

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