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The MLD 2012 Thread II

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Old
08-12-2012, 06:01 PM
  #501
tarheelhockey
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I would hardly call Cherry's Bruins a paper tiger. "On paper" they may not have closed out a Cup, but they were an extremely good team during a period when there was more than just one 500 lb gorilla in the league.

1976, Cherry's sophomore season, he coaches them to a 19-point improvement and loses to a Flyers team coming off consecutive Cups.

1977, he sweeps the Flyers and loses to a ludicrously stacked Montreal team that lost all of 10 games in the regular season and playoff combined.

1978, he crushes the Flyers again and loses to that dynastic Montreal team. 2 of the Habs' 3 playoff losses came in that series against Cherry's Bruins.

1979 of course is familiar to all of us. What isn't often pointed out is that the Bruins won 3 games against Montreal in the playoffs, while the rest of the Habs' opponents won 1.

The 1980 Rockies were awful, but so were the 1977, 1978, 1979, 1981 and 1982 Rockies. Scotty Bowman couldn't have made that team competitive (unless perhaps he was allowed to GM them too). They were a poor organization, plain and simple.

6 seasons, 4 division titles, 6-5 in playoff series, 2 Finals appearances and an Adams. I'm not losing sleep over one bad season in Denver and a close loss to one of the best teams ever assembled.

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08-12-2012, 06:02 PM
  #502
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
You are remembering it wrong.

The Flyers were only a few points ahead, but they were the defending champions. The Canadiens, however, were never less than 15 points ahead of the Bruins in the standings.
I am not talking about his first year when the Flyers repeated. I am talking about the later years in Boston, and solely in comparison to the Habs.

The Habs ahead in the standings?? Boston won four consecutive divisional titles in the regular season between 1976 and 1979. But the Bruins got bounced each postseason.

I do NOT remember wrong the expectations on Cherry and the Bruins to win the cup. I guess some newspaper references will need to be dug up to show you.

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08-12-2012, 06:05 PM
  #503
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Alex Delvecchio

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
All the players you listed were small or average size. The vast majority of big players that play with any kind of grit receive penalties as a result.
Alex Delvecchio small??? 6' / 195 lbs was small in the fifties and sixties???

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...delveal01.html

Howe was the same height and 10lbs heavier as a comparable.

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08-12-2012, 06:06 PM
  #504
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with our makeup picks Yarmouth selects D Bob Plager



and head coach Bill Dineen


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08-12-2012, 06:06 PM
  #505
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
I would hardly call Cherry's Bruins a paper tiger. "On paper" they may not have closed out a Cup, but they were an extremely good team during a period when there was more than just one 500 lb gorilla in the league.

1976, Cherry's sophomore season, he coaches them to a 19-point improvement and loses to a Flyers team coming off consecutive Cups.

1977, he sweeps the Flyers and loses to a ludicrously stacked Montreal team that lost all of 10 games in the regular season and playoff combined.

1978, he crushes the Flyers again and loses to that dynastic Montreal team. 2 of the Habs' 3 playoff losses came in that series against Cherry's Bruins.

1979 of course is familiar to all of us. What isn't often pointed out is that the Bruins won 3 games against Montreal in the playoffs, while the rest of the Habs' opponents won 1.

The 1980 Rockies were awful, but so were the 1977, 1978, 1979, 1981 and 1982 Rockies. Scotty Bowman couldn't have made that team competitive (unless perhaps he was allowed to GM them too). They were a poor organization, plain and simple.

6 seasons, 4 division titles, 6-5 in playoff series, 2 Finals appearances and an Adams. I'm not losing sleep over one bad season in Denver and a close loss to one of the best teams ever assembled.
According to Cherry, the rockies were a strong team and lost because of their goalie. Something I think he claims to this day.

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08-12-2012, 06:09 PM
  #506
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
According to Cherry, the rockies were a strong team and lost because of their goalie. Something I think he claims to this day.
A symptom of thinking your team is a little better than it really is.

Fans do it all the time. See: Cloutier, Dan

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08-12-2012, 06:13 PM
  #507
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
A symptom of thinking your team is a little better than it really is.

Fans do it all the time. See: Cloutier, Dan
An alternative theory would be, the players were North Americans and the goalie were a Swede. I'll bet good money that it has more to do with Cherry infamous biggotry than it has to do with him overrating his team.

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08-12-2012, 06:14 PM
  #508
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Don Cherry

TOI management was an issue with Don Cherry.

Joke out of the way it still points to his major drawback as a coach, lack of attention to preparation/details.

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08-12-2012, 06:22 PM
  #509
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
A symptom of thinking your team is a little better than it really is.

Fans do it all the time. See: Cloutier, Dan
Except for your example: Seven (7) players from the Cloutier-years Canucks have been drafted in the ATD (Naslund, Bertuzzi, Ohlund, Linden, Sedin, Sedin, Jovanovski).

The Rockies had but four ATDers under Cherry: Robert, McDonald, Ramage, Paiement.

(Thankfully, Cloutier didn't go in the ATD, MLD, AAA, AA or even A last year. May he rest forever undrafted. Amen.)

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08-12-2012, 06:26 PM
  #510
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
An alternative theory would be, the players were North Americans and the goalie were a Swede. I'll bet good money that it has more to do with Cherry infamous biggotry than it has to do with him overrating his team.
And that may very well have been the case, no doubt.

Regarding Europeans, my team has 3:

Ulf Nilsson - I truly believe that if Cherry had coached Nilsson, he would have been a different man in the 1980s. He was a Cherry type player, all guts, and committed to a successful career in North America.

Udo Kiessling - Bulldog tough, gritty as hell, and mean as they come. If anything, his problem might be that he was TOO dirty for Cherry a la Ulfie Samuelsson. Also, he's German and I don't remember Cherry having a problem with Germans the way he did with Swedes and Russians.

Arturs Irbe - Not a problem. He was a battler on the ice and a lovable guy off it. Nobody could have an issue with friggin Arturs Irbe.

So I don't foresee a problem brewing on this roster.

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08-12-2012, 06:44 PM
  #511
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
And that may very well have been the case, no doubt.

Regarding Europeans, my team has 3:

Ulf Nilsson - I truly believe that if Cherry had coached Nilsson, he would have been a different man in the 1980s. He was a Cherry type player, all guts, and committed to a successful career in North America.

Udo Kiessling - Bulldog tough, gritty as hell, and mean as they come. If anything, his problem might be that he was TOO dirty for Cherry a la Ulfie Samuelsson. Also, he's German and I don't remember Cherry having a problem with Germans the way he did with Swedes and Russians.

Arturs Irbe - Not a problem. He was a battler on the ice and a lovable guy off it. Nobody could have an issue with friggin Arturs Irbe.

So I don't foresee a problem brewing on this roster.
Oh, I didn't even know you had drafted him, I was speaking in general. Cherry had no problems with dirty players before he became a pundit. He loved them on his own team. He didn't have a problem with the icing rule either when his players smashed people half to death.

If Ulf (as in Robocop) was named Mike and played for the Bruins he would have loved him too.

I think if Cherry could get past the bias then yes he would be great for Nilsson but I dont think he would unless Nilsson magically doubled his effort.

There were many rumours when he was the coach of the Rockies that they could have made a trade for Gustafsson and also signed some very nice prospects from europe but Cherry refused.

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08-12-2012, 07:01 PM
  #512
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
Fans do it all the time. See: Cloutier, Dan
Bad example. While an acceptable regular season goalie (in the rarity he was healthy), in 02-03 the only year the Naslund-Bertuzzi Canucks should have had success (they were the 8th seed in 01-02 and Bertuzzi was suspended in 03-04), up 3-1 in the series, he allowed 6 goals on 21 shots in gm 5, 5 on 23 shots in gm 6 and 4 on 16 shots in gm 7. All of this to a very low scoring team.

Game 7 was a very well played game by the Canucks were they barely gave up scoring chances and managed a 2-0 lead late into the second. However, Pascal Dupuis banked a shot off of Cloutier's back and Cloutier allowed the game winning goal to Darby Hendrickson on a wrist shot from just inside the blue line.

I think overall, the Naslund-Bertuzzi Canucks were never more than a 2nd tier contender, but Cloutier played the biggest role in their lack of success, probably followed by the lack of forward depth in 02-03 (resolved in 03-04, but too late).


Last edited by Hedberg: 08-12-2012 at 07:13 PM.
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08-12-2012, 07:05 PM
  #513
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrx
I think if Cherry could get past the bias then yes he would be great for Nilsson but I dont think he would unless Nilsson magically doubled his effort.
That's just the thing about Nilsson -- he was already an all-effort, all-guts type of player.

While Cherry was obviously a xenophobe, he didn't pull his stereotypes completely out of thin air. A lot of 1970s/1980s European players were used to a much less physical game, and a lot of them didn't stick around the NHL very long when they realized what they had got themselves into.

Nilsson is not one of those players. He spoke English, committed to playing his ass off in North America, and made his teams much better. Cherry might be biased but he is not a stupid coach. He is not going to cause problems where they don't exist with a guy like Nilsson.


Last edited by tarheelhockey: 08-12-2012 at 07:14 PM.
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08-12-2012, 07:08 PM
  #514
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...and that is why it's ok to mention Dan Cloutier's name.

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08-12-2012, 07:15 PM
  #515
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I definitely considered Cherry pretty strongly. I would have taken him at the right time (like now, not paying any kind of early draft premium) but I ended up with more of a gritty team and less of a goonish team. If I had ended up with Fontinato that might have swung the pandulum far enough. Top-5 coach here I think.
We considered picking Cherry as an assistant for our over-the-top goon team last ATD, but I didn't because I didn't want to be the one to prevent him finally falling out of the ATD.

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08-12-2012, 07:20 PM
  #516
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I think overall, the Naslund-Bertuzzi Canucks were never more than a 2nd tier contender, but Cloutier played the biggest role in their lack of success, probably followed by the lack of forward depth in 02-03 (resolved in 03-04, but too late).
And that's the only reason I mentioned him. The whole "we coulda been a contender" thing that gets heaped on the shoulders of losing goalies.

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08-12-2012, 07:30 PM
  #517
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Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
I am not talking about his first year when the Flyers repeated. I am talking about the later years in Boston, and solely in comparison to the Habs.

The Habs ahead in the standings?? Boston won four consecutive divisional titles in the regular season between 1976 and 1979. But the Bruins got bounced each postseason.

I do NOT remember wrong the expectations on Cherry and the Bruins to win the cup. I guess some newspaper references will need to be dug up to show you.
Montreal was ahead by 15, 16, and 30 points when they knocked boston off.

You are definately remembering wrong.

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08-12-2012, 07:34 PM
  #518
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
You are definately remembering wrong.
I stand by what I said: Boston was a great team that battled with Montreal and was expected to win a cup or two but didn't.

I don't know know what you think I remember wrong. Are you claiming that Montreal was clearly expected to win? that the rivalry was not that strong, more one sided?

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08-12-2012, 07:36 PM
  #519
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Considering nearly every significant player and coach on that Habs team was taken in the ATD, I'm not sure they should be the bar for Cherry's MLD performance

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08-12-2012, 07:56 PM
  #520
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Quote:
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Yeah, he did warm up eventually to guys like Forsberg and Yushkevich. It took him a long time to stop ridiculing francophones though, for instance, his mocking of Patrick Roy's family name, which he finally admitted on Coach's Corner he had to stop because his friends told him he was embarrassing himself.

I thought Cherry with the Colorado Rockies an utter disgrace to the game of hockey. I am speaking here of my opinion at the time, as a twelve year old. This view was shared by my friends. The franchise was a joke and Cherry acted like a clown (this is before his broadcasting days established his legend as an eccentric crank liked and disliked by equal numbers of hockeyists).

His career with Boston does look impressive on paper but he was the Jacques Martin of his era: just as Martin was knocked for failing to take a talented Sens team to the promised land, so the Bruins were a disappointment under Cherry in being so talented but not being able to get it done in the playoffs.

Jacques Martin was a standout coach for several teams for an overall longer period of time than Cherry. I think he's a better coach here, to be honest

The biggest thing about both guys is that each really needs his team
tailored to his style (trapping/ultra defense for Martin, smash mouth hockey for Cherry).

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08-12-2012, 07:56 PM
  #521
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
That's just the thing about Nilsson -- he was already an all-effort, all-guts type of player.

While Cherry was obviously a xenophobe, he didn't pull his stereotypes completely out of thin air. A lot of 1970s/1980s European players were used to a much less physical game, and a lot of them didn't stick around the NHL very long when they realized what they had got themselves into.

Nilsson is not one of those players. He spoke English, committed to playing his ass off in North America, and made his teams much better. Cherry might be biased but he is not a stupid coach. He is not going to cause problems where they don't exist with a guy like Nilsson.
Speaking in general again. European players were treated extra harsh in the beginning. When Sterner attended the Rangers training camp for example, most of the team went after him. Luckily he had Bathgate and Henry to help him out off the ice.

European players had to put in double the effort of a canadian player to be accepted while their own players despised them and intentionally tried to injure them. I bet a lot of Canadian players would "go home" too if they had to endure the same climate. "Soft" europeans stems from most of them being top-6 skilled players who didn't fight not that they were actually soft and couldn't take or give a hit. Fans had "kill the euro"-signs in the arena thats how hated they were. It's not a coincidence that once "Lill-pröjsarn" came to the NHL he went through injury woes.

Now to the matter at hand, I don't think having Cherry as coach will ruin your team but I am sceptical of him.

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08-12-2012, 07:59 PM
  #522
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Jacques Martin was a standout coach for several teams for an overall longer period of time than Cherry. I think he's a better coach here, to be honest.

The biggest thing about both guys is that each really needs his team tailored to his style (trapping/ultra defense for Martin, smash mouth hockey for Cherry).
Agreed.

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08-12-2012, 08:05 PM
  #523
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Winnipeg selects F Darcy Tucker & D Janne Niinimaa



I prefer this Niinimaa picture:


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08-12-2012, 08:12 PM
  #524
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355. Selfish Man - Pittsburgh Hornets - ON THE CLOCK (90 minutes remaining)
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08-12-2012, 08:39 PM
  #525
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Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
Speaking in general again. European players were treated extra harsh in the beginning. When Sterner attended the Rangers training camp for example, most of the team went after him. Luckily he had Bathgate and Henry to help him out off the ice.

European players had to put in double the effort of a canadian player to be accepted while their own players despised them and intentionally tried to injure them. I bet a lot of Canadian players would "go home" too if they had to endure the same climate. "Soft" europeans stems from most of them being top-6 skilled players who didn't fight not that they were actually soft and couldn't take or give a hit. Fans had "kill the euro"-signs in the arena thats how hated they were. It's not a coincidence that once "Lill-pröjsarn" came to the NHL he went through injury woes.
I could see all of this being an issue if I had drafted Mats Naslund as a centerpiece to Cherry's team. But Nilsson actually DID absorb all the punishment of those early days; he DID deal with the fans; and he was successful in spite of it.

It was mentioned earlier that we have to separate Cherry the media personality from Cherry the coach. Well, he only had one problem with one European player as coach -- Hardy Astrom, who was legitimately a sub-NHL goalie. Not exactly a large or relevant portfolio.

Knowing BOTH sides of Cherry's personality, the bad as well as the good, I truly don't believe he would have done anything other than give Nilsson the protection he needed to play his game. Same as with the Québécois Jean Ratelle, one of his favorite and most successful players.

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