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The MLD 2012 Thread II

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Old
08-15-2012, 05:42 PM
  #626
seventieslord
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Time for my weekly catch-up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
Mike Grier , RW[/B]
Glad to see him get more recognition. This is about where he should probably go, but likely no higher.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
"Sugar" Jim Henry, G
.
Henry vs. McNeil! I couldn’t decide so I chose neither. VR, why Henry? And tony, why McNeil? Make your cases, I am interested.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Try again. With the first of our two skipped picks, we'll select

Al Hamilton, D

Hamilton is a right-handed two way defenseman.
Everything I’ve seen indicates he is an “offensive” defenseman. Why do you say “two way”?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
Brendan Witt? Didnt really see him as a MLD pick. Quality minutes for bad teams and physical. Thats basically it.
I wouldn’t even say they were that quality. I would take Witt in the 1800 range.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
The newest Maniac is Dan Maloney

That quote about not winning fights but showing up for them is really strange coming from him, because by most accounts he was one of the league’s best fighters, if not the best. In fact, his fight totals are quite low and it’s probably because fewer players would fight him as his career went on. So it’s almost like the opposite of his statement applied more to him. He did win a lot of fights, and as a result, didn’t have to show up for an awful lot of fights.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Troll Ward View Post
With our first pick, the Ice Caps select probably the only all-time career record holder left on the boards

Presenting our 4th line LW:



4421 PIMs

Tiger wasn't just a goon though - in 1045 career game, he scored 253 goals and 295 assists
At this level, Tiger is a “goon who can play” and a good 4th line pick. I wouldn’t want him at the ATD level personally.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Zhamnov and Cassels as fourth liners don't bring gritty, hard checking defense-first skills, but that's okay if the line-up already sports such third liners,
Cassels was pretty good defensively though, IIRC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveG View Post
with our two makeup picks Yarmouth selects LW Dave Reid
Can’t believe I got Reid in the 1400s last year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
No, it's a problem of trying to assemble a theme team. Did you really need to draft 100% Swedes? The central idea is to build the best team possible. Tying your hands behind your back by limiting your selections to Swedes only has its limitations. There are some excellent early era undrafteds and you turn your back on them simply because of their nationality.
This was a good post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Troll Ward View Post
With our first pick, the IceCaps select:



Good physical presence, lots of size, can score a little too.
Wow, I have to admit I’m a little surprised that in the two drafts since I’ve profiled him as an “undrafted” in the 1500 range he has risen up to here. This seems pretty early, but I realize he is also somewhat of a “niche” player due to his size, PK ability, and playoff history of the last few years. What do the others think?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Lemelin was on our list of potential starters if we lost out on Moran, so we're happy to get him as a backup.

V 2, 3, 4, 7, 7*
AS 3, 3, 6, 6, 8
Hart 8

*1 vote
I believe he was tops on my list along with Myshkin.

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08-15-2012, 05:57 PM
  #627
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Wow, I have to admit I’m a little surprised that in the two drafts since I’ve profiled him as an “undrafted” in the 1500 range he has risen up to here. This seems pretty early, but I realize he is also somewhat of a “niche” player due to his size, PK ability, and playoff history of the last few years. What do the others think.
The quality of the pick will depend entirely on how he's used. He was good within his niche, poor outside of it.

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08-15-2012, 06:06 PM
  #628
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seventieslord
Everything I’ve seen indicates he is an “offensive” defenseman. Why do you say “two way”?
From Joe Pelletier on Al Hamilton:

Quote:
In 1970-71 Al proved he belonged in the league. Even though the Sabres were weak, especially on the blue line, Al acquitted himself with a 2 goal, 30 point season. Although his +/- rating of -23 is not impressive, it needs to be taken in context. Al was often used against the other team's top players, which is an especially trying task with an expansion team. The fact that his coaches felt he was reliable enough for such situations speaks louder than his poor +/- ranking
From Wikipedia:

Quote:
A superb defender and leader, he captained the Oilers for four seasons and was chosen to represent Canada in the 1974 Summit Series against the Soviet Union.[2]
Hamilton was also known for his physical play, which has some defensive value

He's a little too offensive-minded to be Mark Streit's partner, but he's definitely useful in his own zone

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08-15-2012, 06:08 PM
  #629
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I see Hal Gill as basically the Ken Daneyko of the MLD. Very useful on the PK if you can find a way to give him limited minutes as a #6 at even strength

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08-15-2012, 06:11 PM
  #630
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hedberg View Post
We considered picking Cherry as an assistant for our over-the-top goon team last ATD, but I didn't because I didn't want to be the one to prevent him finally falling out of the ATD.
I think you made a good choice. Cherry wouldn’t want an assistant, and I think he would absolutely hate being one himself.

You know, if I think he’s a top-5 coach here, I could probably name 5 who he’s better than, meaning he could go in the MLD. But, he would be a very low-tier MLD coach and the thing with him is, he’s high risk, high reward, and if you’re getting a guy whose overall level is bottom tier, you probably want him to be a safe pick. (think Glen Wesley as a #7 D over Jeff Brown)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Montreal Orfuns adopt Charles Tobin -D/LW/C/CRW, PCHA and earlier leagues. Great versatility.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p....php?pid=60150
According to your best friend Iain Fyffe’s research (which was by analyzing newspaper reports of every game of the era), Tobin played about 40% of his games at RW, 22% on defence, 17% at LW and 15% at C. So yes, he’s obviously very versatile.

I would list him as RW/D/LW/C though, to assign appropriate importance to each position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hedberg View Post
Connecticut selects RW Art Farrell and C Lorne Campbell

Campbell had a shot at being the top offensive center in the AAA, I think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
Marek Zidlicky , D
Not sure what he keeps doing to get selected higher.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hedberg View Post
Connecticut finishes off with D Jack Ruttan
The mystery player of the MLD/AAA drafts.

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Old
08-15-2012, 06:22 PM
  #631
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord
Not sure what he keeps doing to get selected higher.
Zidlicky? Leading a Cup finalist in ice time by over a minute more than second place has to increase his stock somewhat, right?

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08-15-2012, 06:29 PM
  #632
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Odds and Ends

Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post

Henry vs. McNeil! I couldn’t decide so I chose neither. VR, why Henry? And tony, why McNeil? Make your cases, I am interested.



Everything I’ve seen indicates he is an “offensive” defenseman. Why do you say “two way”?



I wouldn’t even say they were that quality. I would take Witt in the 1800 range.



That quote about not winning fights but showing up for them is really strange coming from him, because by most accounts he was one of the league’s best fighters, if not the best. In fact, his fight totals are quite low and it’s probably because fewer players would fight him as his career went on. So it’s almost like the opposite of his statement applied more to him. He did win a lot of fights, and as a result, didn’t have to show up for an awful lot of fights.



At this level, Tiger is a “goon who can play” and a good 4th line pick. I wouldn’t want him at the ATD level personally.



Cassels was pretty good defensively though, IIRC.

Can’t believe I got Reid in the 1400s last year.


Wow, I have to admit I’m a little surprised that in the two drafts since I’ve profiled him as an “undrafted” in the 1500 range he has risen up to here. This seems pretty early, but I realize he is also somewhat of a “niche” player due to his size, PK ability, and playoff history of the last few years. What do the others think?



I believe he was tops on my list along with Myshkin.
Henry/McNeil.Both smallish endurance issues.

Al Hamilton. Not fast enough to be an offensive threat, adequate defensively but held back by his skating.Two way lite would fit.

Witt/Nill. Niche dmen, depending on the partner and team system, regardless at ES you are playing 4.5 against 5.

Maloney just part of a line of fighters who were left alone.

Tiger Williams. Undisciplined. Would lose it. Do you want a 4th liner deciding a game by losing it?

Cassels was reasonable defensively but not against big, physical centers.

Dave Reid. Old Peterborough Pete. In a structured system supported has value, MLD level. If you do not need the F/D versatility on a par with Bob Turner. Better than Andre Pronovost.

Myshkin in short spurts looked good. Basically his niche on the Soviet National team. Did not impress during club tour against 5 WHA teams.

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08-15-2012, 07:04 PM
  #633
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi View Post
Pittsburgh selects RW Glen Murray
Murray belongs around here. I thought he was a bit of a rare blunder pick by Sturminator towards the end of last ATD, as he temporarily became obsessed with even strength scoring. That is fine, but then Murray started to stand out. And of course there is one big reason Murray had some great years as an ES scorer, and it’s not Murray.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
Winnipeg selects G Don Beaupre & F Pat Boutette
Boutette belongs around here. Glad to earn him a bump, but not sure how much higher I’d take him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I don't know why Hugh Bolton was on your damn shame list. The guy played THREE full seasons, not even consecutively, due to injuries. Sure, he was great for 1 of those seasons and very good for another (Norris record 5th, 9th; All Star record 5th, 16th; 1 All Star Game), but would you think it's a damn shame if an active player who only played 3 seasons to date and had that Norris record was a must-draft guy?

Bolton played 252 NHL games, playoffs and regular season combined. Seasons were 70 games long then, so he only missed a potential 36 regular season games during his 3 healthy seasons.
“must draft” by pick #1200? Absolutely.

The hypothetical active player? Absolutely.

But the caveat is this. The hypothetical active player would have to “actually” be the 5th-9th-best defenseman in the NHL and not just by voting. With a guy like Hugh Bolton the all-star/Norris voting can be used as a proxy for a “best defensemen list” somewhat accurately in the absence of better information, but for players we’ve actually seen, the Norris/all-star voting starts to really drop in importance once you’re talking about players that only a very small percentage of writers even put on a ballot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
1. Finish your roster post, listing all 25 picks, linking up any and all bios that you have constructed.
2. Post to show that your squad has qualified for the playoffs by meeting the era requirements.
3. Choose one captain ('C') and two alternate captains ('A'). Only one 'C' and two 'A' please for standardized comparison of leadership. Post it on your line-up roster thread post.
4. Post your completed line-up on the assassination thread.
5. Assassinate other teams' line-ups when they have posted them on the assassination thread.

This is the list of things to do for the rest of this week. Everyone will be receiving next week a PM regarding procedures with voting. (Note: An outside veteran ATD GM (like a BM67 or FlyersFan) wll be contacted about tallying the votes for the coming all-star teams, regular season rankings and then playoffs voting.)
Let’s take our time on the assassinations and give everyone as much time to research and do bios as they need.

Also, all-star teams will be full teams, with top-10 lists for all positions submitted, as we have done in recent years:

- Top-10 scoring line centers
- Top-10 scoring line wingers
- Top-10 bottom-6 centers
- Top-10 bottom-6 wingers
- Top-10 defensemen
- Top-5 goalies
- Top-5 coaches
- Top-5 spares
- 5 least favourite picks

Let’s get an impartial ex-GM to add up the team standings, which are the most important. As for the all-star teams, leave that to TDMM and I, like last year. I’ll do the work and he can vet my results for accuracy and honesty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Other than the respect of NHLers of the era that Bobrov received, which is minor but a bit significant from a qualified judgement, scouting perspective.

I have always thought Bobrov an ATD extra skater type, just as I do Zabrodsky. However much I respect the Soviets of the late-60s to 1980s, and think many of them worthy of starting line duty against the greatest ever of any and every era, I think this respect for Soviet hockey does not extend justifiably back to the fifties. Players like Bobrov and Tikal are question marks because they did not play with or against the best of their era! Period. The same goes for a Goheen and Moose Watson. There's reason to think them ATD extra skater worthy, as possible all-time greats worthy of some ice time chance, but not counted on against the best of all-time. At the MLD level they are worth icing as they have some greatness, just the extent of it is questionable.

MLD picks like Shmyr and Holden are harder to assess because the WHA and earliest pro leagues had many all-time greats yet they were at best parallel level leagues (but paid a hell of a lot more $$$) with the more established top leagues of their day. But I'd be more comfortable skating Shmyr or Holden on an ATD starting roster than I would a Bobrov or Tikal or Zabrodsky.
The thing about Watson is, he actually played against players of a known value in senior hockey. Guys who went onto NHL careers. Bobrov and Zabrodsky really didn’t. Shmyr, same thing, he was getting all-star spots over guys who we know were good NHL defensemen and we all have a very good idea how good the WHA was in relation to the NHL (for example, scoring stats tend to average around 2/3 value when converting WHA to NHL)

Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Ignorant? Disingenous? ******* I am livid. Can the character attacks. If it doesn't violate board rules it sure drives people away. I'll take a day or two break because I'm so hopping mad.

Sven won world championship medals in 1962, 1963, 1965. Zabrodsky was world champion in 1947 and 1949 and did well in the 1948 Olympics. I am ignorant of and careless about any Czechoslovakian dmomestic league play he may have played in after that. I simply don't care about such bush league play. Now if he played internationally in the world championships or Olympics in the late fifties then we have a basis of comparison I overlooked. I simply compared their INTERNATIONAL accomplishments, not their domestic league play. If you had asked nicely how I could say what I said, you'd discover that I simply didn't factor in their domestic league play, was looking at the best level of competition each took part in. The Czechoslovakian and Soviet domestic leagues of the fifties I have always considered third tier, have along history of stating such on this subboard.

The basic lack of respect in your post is something I hope you don't replicate in your personal life. Who says such things to a person's face?

I am done for today.
Jeez, chill out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi View Post
Here's what I came up with for favorite picks

Round 1: Brian Campbell, Paddy Moran, Brian Bellows
Round 2: Johnny Gagnon, Mike Green, Dubbie Kerr
Round 3: Nikolai Drozdetsky, Jimmy Ward, Paul Shmyr, Barry Pederson
Round 4: Gord Fraser, Steve Thomas, Gus Bodnar
Round 5: Geoff Courtnall, Don Edwards, Doug Young
Round 6: Syl Apps Jr., Craig Janney, Tom Paton
Round 7: Paul Haynes, Daniel Briere, Jozef Golonka
Round 8: Alex Tanguay, Normie Himes, Pete Peeters, Ed Sandford (I could pick over half the players in this round probably, well done everyone)
Round 9: Eddie Wisemn, Willie Mitchell, JS Giguere
Round 10: Don Lever, Miroslav Dvorak, Wayne Merrick
Round 11: Lou Fontinato, Grant Warwick, Joe Juneau
Round 12: Patrik Sundstrom, Bob Trapp, Danny Grant
Round 13: Niklas Sundstrom, John Sorrell, Mark Streit
Round 14: Billy McGimsie, Brent Seabrook, Doug Crossman
Round 15: Larry Patey, Tony Gingras, Steve Sullivan
Round 16/17: Buzz Boll, Cecil Blachford, Charlie Sands
Round 18/19: Art Jackson, Scott Hannan, Bob Gracie
Round 20/21: Vladimir Myshkin, Alexei Zhamnov, Tomas Vokoun
Round 22/23: Vladimir Zabrodsky, Alex Smith, Bob Murdoch
Round 24/25: Keith Acton, Wildor Larochelle, Bert Lindsay
8 of 61? Gosh, thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hedberg View Post
Candidates:
15 year old Sidney Crosby in the first ATD
Wade Belak as a joke in ATD 12
Manny Malhotra in ATD 2011
“Revoke the joke!” I exclaimed. And it was eventually revoked.

I honestly don’t think Malhotra was all that bad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Look at rounds 24 and 25 from ATD 2011. Some real stinkers there
How about that fitness coach with two years experience.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hedberg View Post
My favourite picks (in no particular order):

1: Howard McNamara, Brian Campbell, Tumba Johansson
2: Pekka Rautakallio, Robert McDougall, Mike Green
3: Lasse Bjorn, Paul Shmyr, Nikolai Drozdetsky
4: Blaine Stoughton, Steve Thomas, Charlie Burns
5: Doug Young, Moose Watson, Ryan Miller (This was my favourite round - solid picks for everyone)
6: Tom Paton, Craig Janney, Weldy Young
7: Wally Hergesheimer, Daniel Briere, Jozef Golonka
8: Pelle Lindbergh, Alex Tanguay, Drew Doughty
9: Frank Rankin, JS Giguere, Eddie Wiseman
10: Morris Lukowich, Anders Kallur, Miroslav Dvorak
11: Scott Gomez, Don Smith, Miroslav Satan
12: Billy Gilmour, Jim Morrison, Patrik Sundstrom
13: Mikko Koivu, Murph Chamberlain, John Sorrell
14: Albert Langlois, Andre Pronovost, Bill Fairbairn
15: Karel Gut, Haldor Halderson, Arturs Irbe
16/17: Michal Pivonka, Charlie Sands, Johan Franzen
18/19: Sean Burke, Ray Sheppard, Peter Zezel
20/21: Vladimir Myshkin, Alexei Zhamnov, David Backes
22/23: Reggie Lemelin, Vladimir Zabrodsky, Charles Tobin
24/25: Tom Bladon, Wildor Larochelle, Tobias Enstrom
9 of 60… wow, I’m embarrassed.

I may not get the energy to make one of these lists, but let me say I was fond of almost all your picks too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi View Post
Bykov
WC Stats: 84 GP, 39 G, 33 A, 72 PTS
WC Ranks: T4, T5, T5, T13, T14

OG Stats: 15 GP, 6 G, 10 A, 16 PTS
OG Ranks: T4

9 GP, 2 G, 7 A, 9 PTS
CC Rank: 5

Drozdetsky

WC Stats: 26 GP, 11 G, 13 A, 24 PTS
WC Ranks: 4, T5, T12

OG Stats: 7 GP, 10 G, 2 A, 12 PTS
OG Ranks: 3

CC Stats: 7GP, 2 G, 2 A, 4 PTS

Khomutov
WC Stats: 84 GP, 30 G, 36 A, 66 PTS
WC Ranks: 2, 2, T12

OG Stats: 23 GP, 11 G, 12 A, 23 PTS
OG Ranks: 2

CC Stats: 9 GP, 4 G, 3 A, 7 PTS
CC Ranks: T4

Kamensky
WC Stats: 61 GP, 29 G, 19 A, 48 PTS
WC Ranks: T4, T4, T11, T16, T17

OG Stats: 14 GP, 5 G, 4 A, 9 PTS

CC Stats: 9 GP, 6 G, 1 A, 7 PTS
CC Ranks: T7

Kozhevnikov
WC Stats: 10 GP, 6 G, 1 A, 7 PTS
WC: T11

OG Stats: 9 GP, 5 G, 5 A, 10 PTS
OG: T11

Bykov, Khomutov, and Kamensky had the lengthiest international careers. I think Bykov comes out on top here, his 5 top 5 finishes (considering WC, OG, and CC) put him ahead of everyone else. Drozdetsky kept up his torrid pace during his limited time suiting up for the national time. His Canada Cup was in 81 rather than the 87 one the others played in. Khomtov's international record flatters him more than his domestic finishes and I think he edges out Drozdetsky and Kamensky internationally. Kozhevnikov just didn't get enough time for the national team to compare fairly here
Someone do a comprehensive Kozhevnikov/Drozdetsky/Zhluktov comparison, and find a way to work Lukac into there too. I’m finding it hard sorting those 4 out.

If no one does it, maybe I’ll have to find the time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
From Joe Pelletier on Al Hamilton:

From Wikipedia:

Hamilton was also known for his physical play, which has some defensive value

He's a little too offensive-minded to be Mark Streit's partner, but he's definitely useful in his own zone
A couple things:

- I wasn’t thinking about +/- at all. Obviously it’s symptomatic of things out of his control.
- I don’t doubt that in his early NHL days he was playing the opposition’s best. He was 1st and 2nd on those Sabres in TOI. But man, those Sabres were horrible. Look who else was on that blueline. It’s probably a very safe bet that he was their best player, but I’m not sure what that would prove!
- My research was limited to a few scouting report books and I scanned the backs of hockey cards I could find on google images as well. His WHA all-star teams don’t seem to match his offense all that well, either.

Good leadership record though, at least.

Quote:
Zidlicky? Leading a Cup finalist in ice time by over a minute more than second place has to increase his stock somewhat, right?
Well, yeah, it’s impossible to argue with that. But let’s just say I think his “stock” was much too high to begin with.

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08-15-2012, 07:07 PM
  #634
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Tiger Williams. Undisciplined. Would lose it. Do you want a 4th liner deciding a game by losing it?
I agree, but this is the MLD. There are quite a few of those guys here. McSorley, Maloney, Corson, etc.

The thing is, at least they can play. better than polluting your lineup with garbage that is only there to fight. They're legit 4th liners. (I don't mean Corson, he's obviously more than that)

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08-15-2012, 07:30 PM
  #635
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seventieslord
The thing about Watson is, he actually played against players of a known value in senior hockey. Guys who went onto NHL careers. Bobrov and Zabrodsky really didn’t. Shmyr, same thing, he was getting all-star spots over guys who we know were good NHL defensemen and we all have a very good idea how good the WHA was in relation to the NHL (for example, scoring stats tend to average around 2/3 value when converting WHA to NHL)
A 34 year old Grant Warwick played in the 1955 World Championships against a 32 year old Zabrodsky and a 23 year old Tumba.

Zabrodsky scored 13 goals, Tumba scored 9, and Grant Warwick scored 6. Small sample size though.

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08-15-2012, 07:46 PM
  #636
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Discipline

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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I agree, but this is the MLD. There are quite a few of those guys here. McSorley, Maloney, Corson, etc.

The thing is, at least they can play. better than polluting your lineup with garbage that is only there to fight. They're legit 4th liners. (I don't mean Corson, he's obviously more than that)
Williams and McSorley come to mind when you talk about a lack of discipline. McSorley 1993 SC finals game 2 is a classic. An NHL team that is a contender often lacks the ability to overcome such an undisciplined mistake. Why take such a risk at the MLD level?

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08-15-2012, 08:00 PM
  #637
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Billy Warwick

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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
A 34 year old Grant Warwick played in the 1955 World Championships against a 32 year old Zabrodsky and a 23 year old Tumba.

Zabrodsky scored 13 goals, Tumba scored 9, and Grant Warwick scored 6. Small sample size though.
1955 World Championship results follow:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1955_Wo..._Championships

Czechoslovakia tended to run up the score against the weak opposition. Believe Vsevolod Bobrov also played in that WC. Regardless Billy Warwick was named the best forward. So back to square one.

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08-15-2012, 08:09 PM
  #638
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
1955 World Championship results follow:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1955_Wo..._Championships

Czechoslovakia tended to run up the score against the weak opposition.
And Canada didn't? The first games I see are 7-0 Czechoslovakia and 12-1 Canada victories.

Quote:
Believe Vsevolod Bobrov also played in that WC.
He was, but he missed 2 games and wasn't among the leaders when he did play. Doesn't really matter though.

Quote:
Regardless Billy Warwick was named the best forward. So back to square one.
I have no idea what "square one" is supposed to be.

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08-15-2012, 08:24 PM
  #639
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Last games

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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
And Canada didn't? The first games I see are 7-0 Czechoslovakia and 12-1 Canada victories.



He was, but he missed 2 games and wasn't among the leaders when he did play. Doesn't really matter though.



I have no idea what "square one" is supposed to be.
Last two games when Czechoslovakia had no chance for the gold they beat two weak teams 17-2 and 18-2 driving individual numbers upwards with no i,pact on the standings.

Start over because Billy Warwick winning the best forward puts your original comparison on very thin ice.

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08-15-2012, 08:41 PM
  #640
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Last two games when Czechoslovakia had no chance for the gold they beat two weak teams 17-2 and 18-2 driving individual numbers upwards with no i,pact on the standings.
They had to win both of those last 2 games to take the Bronze, so it defintaly did impact the standings.

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Start over because Billy Warwick winning the best forward puts your original comparison on very thin ice.
It's not uncommon for players to play over their heads for a short time. Take a look through all the WCs. There are a lot of names on the leaderboard that come out of nowhere.

That's exactly why we always want larger sample sizes.

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08-15-2012, 09:02 PM
  #641
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The mystery player of the MLD/AAA drafts.
I thought this time I would be able to find something. No such luck. Maybe he's the Hall of Fame's Taro Tsujimoto or Rednal Sinav?

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I honestly don’t think Malhotra was all that bad.
Someone has to be the worst (although I excluded goons in that list. Discounting the ability the fight, I think Semenko is the worst hockey player to ever be selected)

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How about that fitness coach with two years experience.
That's the worst pick, but it doesn't count as a player

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08-15-2012, 09:04 PM
  #642
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Not Really

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
They had to win both of those last 2 games to take the Bronze, so it defintaly did impact the standings.



It's not uncommon for players to play over their heads for a short time.
Take a look through all the WCs. There are a lot of names on the leaderboard that come out of nowhere.

That's exactly why we always want larger sample sizes.
USA played and tied the earlier March 5th game.They did not play March 6th. Czechoslovakia scored 35 goals in their last two games, simply running up the score when the issue was no longer in doubt and the win in the books.

That is true but goals scored against weak opposition are constants thru the fifties well into the seventies.

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08-15-2012, 09:23 PM
  #643
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
USA played and tied the earlier March 5th game.They did not play March 6th. Czechoslovakia scored 35 goals in their last two games, simply running up the score when the issue was no longer in doubt and the win in the books.

That is true but goals scored against weak opposition are constants thru the fifties well into the seventies.
You're basically describing the format of every World Championship tournament in existence. Good teams run up scores on bad teams. Big revelation there

I have to give you props for your creativity though. I've seen you use the "initiating body checks wasnt allowed in the offensive zone prior to 1969 so all Europeans who played before then suck" line to discredit early Europeans before. The "good teams often ran up the score on bad teams in the World Championships before the 1970s; therefore all Europeans who played before the 1970s suck" line is a new one.


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08-16-2012, 01:08 AM
  #644
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
... It's not uncommon for players to play over their heads for a short time. Take a look through all the WCs. There are a lot of names on the leaderboard that come out of nowhere. That's exactly why we always want larger sample sizes.
Agreed. Everyone did a great job on the bios. Not only did I learn a lot, but they helped a lot on a couple projects I'm working on.

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08-16-2012, 03:25 AM
  #645
seventieslord
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Little study I spent three hours on...

- Determine the top-5 teams defensively each season from 1968-1979, the top-6 each season from 1980-2000, and the top-7 each season from 2001-2012. these are defined as elite defensive teams.
- create a new column in the TOI spreadsheet (1967-2006)that sums up only the total of ES and PK ice time, eliminating PP from the equation. Use NHL.com for 2007-2012
- count the number of times a player is either the leader in non-PP TOI on an elite defensive team, or 2nd place and within one minute.

What I'm left with is a list representing which players since expansion have tended to be the bulwark of a very strong defensive team.

177 players showed up at least once. These are the 85 that showed up at least twice.

Bourque 15
Stevens 14.5
Chelios 11
Potvin 9
Robinson 8
Mitchell 8
Lidstrom 7
Desjardins 6
D.Hatcher 6
Chara 6
Hajt 5
Howe 5
Ramsey 5
Johnsson 5
D.Smith 4
Laperriere 4
Orr 4
White 4
Savard 4
Schoenfeld 4
O'Connell 4
Langway 4
Macoun 4
Leetch 4
Zhitnik 4
(undrafted 90s defenseman) 4
(undrafted 90s defenseman) 4
Foote 4
Gibbs 3.5
Park 3.5
Zubov 3.5
Jo.Watson 3
Horton 3
Neilson 3
Stapleton 3
Baun 3
Seiling 3
Lapointe 3
McCrimmon 3
U.Samuelsson 3
(undrafted 90s defenseman) 3
S.Smith 3
Weinrich 3
Pronger 3
Niedermayer 3
(undrafted 00s defenseman) 3
(undrafted 00s defenseman) 3
Hannan 2.5
Tremblay 2
Arbour 2
A.Brown 2
Harris 2
(undrafted 70s defenseman) 2
Harper 2
Ji.Watson 2
Salming 2
Dupont 2
Milbury 2
Dailey 2
D.Wilson 2
Hartsburg 2
Engblom 2
Marois 2
(undrafted 80s defenseman) 2
Butcher 2
K.Hatcher 2
Konstantinov 2
Cote 2
(undrafted 90s defenseman) 2
Ragnarsson 2
(never drafted 00s defenseman) 2
(undrafted 90s defenseman) 2
Regehr 2
(undrafted 00s defenseman) 2
(undrafted 00s defenseman) 2
(undrafted 00s defenseman) 2
(undrafted 00s defenseman) 2
Boyle 2
Keith 2
(undrafted 00s defenseman) 2
(undrafted 00s defenseman) 2
(never drafted 00s defenseman) 2
(never drafted 00s defenseman) 2
(undrafted 00s defenseman) 2
Doughty 2

Bolded players were available heading into this MLD.

This is as imperfect as anything but is pretty useful too. Elite defensemen gravitate to the top of this list. there are definitely players who aren't as good as they look on this list. Zhitnik and someone else had Hasek stopping their pucks. One happened to get the most minutes on a team laced with grinders top to bottom but was not a special player. O'Connell has 4, but always 2nd to Bourque, who, I'm sure O'Connell would admit, carried the pairing. Likewise Steve Smith (Chelios). Some guys were excellent defensively for a whole career and just played on teams that would never be good defensively despite their yeoman's work.

other notes:

- 0.5 means just that. approximately half a season played at a level that would have made him the leader of that team. Usually due to a trade, but in Scott Stevens' case, due to his 2004 injury.

- Look at Willie Mitchell. I'm going to go ahead and say it. THE best defensive defenseman in the draft. Low goals against averages follow this guy around. it is not a coincidence.

- Lidstrom - just 7! Who'd have thought? He was always "the guy" from 1996 on, but in those 16 seasons the Wings were top-6-7 defensively just 7 times, even if always above average. Very interesting stuff. My assumption was always that they were perrennially top-4.

- Kim Johnsson deserves a lot of praise. Wow.

- Eric Weinrich, who'd have thunk it? I knew he was Montreal's #1 in 2000 with an amazing year, but didn't realize how good a defensive record he helped them have.

- Note the too often unheralded guys, Bill Hajt, Mike Ramsay, Dallas Smith, and Jamie Macoun.

- The higher a player ended up on this list, the more likely it was that on a season-to-season basis they would be THE guy on their team, not the "co-guy" (as in, they would have more than a 1:00 cushion). Bourque shared his title just 4 times, I believe Stevens did just four times, as did Chelios. Potvin was always the runaway leader on the Isles. Lidstrom shared with Konstantinov in 1996, Chelios in 2002 and Kronwall in 2012.

- one supposed offensive specialist shows up here. Looking forward to maybe drafting him in the AAA unless someone figures out who he is and takes him first.

- highest drafted post-expansion NHL defensemen to never earn a "point" in this study: Gary Suter (222), Sergei Gonchar (229), Phil Housley (284), Kevin Lowe (285), Brian Rafalski (329), Dave Burrows (363), Reed Larson (382), Barry Beck (402), Rob Ramage (405), Paul Reinhart (409), Carol Vadnais (436), Charlie Huddy (440), Reijo Ruotsalainen (441), Ed Van Impe (444), Stefan Persson (457), Keith Magnuson (465), Sandis Ozolinsh (468), Ken Daneyko (483), and Dion Phaneuf (486). Funny, I have only ever drafted one of these guys in 7 ATDs - Sergei Gonchar - and that was my first draft.

Two distinctly different classes of player there. Offensive specialists, and guys who were excellent defensively but their teams werent. (plus Suter, a lite-elite defenseman, and Van Impe, Magnuson and Daneyko, guys drafted for toughness and defense, but when they were on excellent defensive teams it wasn't really because of them)

Coffey, MacInnis, Blake, Murphy, Carlyle, Numminen, and Barclay Plager were dangerously close to the above list, each with one point. None of these names are surprising, since all are more on the offensive side of the ledger for top-end defensemen, except for Plager (who, it turns out, is more of a Van Impe/Magnuson/Daneyko class player, plus some PP ability)

and, also, I haven't yet mentioned, Barry Gibbs looks pretty decent here. Come on, you had to know this was why I did this study.


Last edited by seventieslord: 08-16-2012 at 03:32 AM.
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08-16-2012, 03:35 AM
  #646
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
- Lidstrom - just 7! Who'd have thought? He was always "the guy" from 1996 on, but in those 16 seasons the Wings were top-6-7 defensively just 7 times, even if always above average. Very interesting stuff. My assumption was always that they were perrennially top-4.
The Wings' perenially crappy goaltending is the most likely cause

Quote:
Kim Johnsson deserves a lot of praise. Wow.
Drfinitely. Jacques Lemaire's favorite defenseman in Minnesota

Quote:
Two distinctly different classes of player there. Offensive specialists, and guys who were excellent defensively but their teams werent. (plus Suter, a lite-elite defenseman, and Van Impe, Magnuson and Daneyko, guys drafted for toughness and defense, but when they were on excellent defensive teams it wasn't really because of them)
That's a little bit strongly worded. Daneyko was one of the best #3/4s in the league for a long time, for example.

Overall interesting stuff. I'm not sure if I'd call Willie Mitchell tr best defensive defenseman in the draft based of this, but he's definitely up there. I thought he went to early in ATD2011, but I did not agree with VI dropping him after taking over the team, and this supports the anecdotal idea that Mitchell had been one of the top defensive defensemen in the league over his career

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08-16-2012, 05:01 AM
  #647
Canadiens1958
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Misrepresentation

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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
You're basically describing the format of every World Championship tournament in existence. Good teams run up scores on bad teams. Big revelation there

I have to give you props for your creativity though. I've seen you use the "initiating body checks wasnt allowed in the offensive zone prior to 1969 so all Europeans who played before then suck" line to discredit early Europeans before. The "good teams often ran up the score on bad teams in the World Championships before the 1970s; therefore all Europeans who played before the 1970s suck" line is a new one.
Total misrepresentation of facts. 1943-69(fall), the NCAA and USA amateur hockey did not recognize the red line and initiating body checking in the offensive zone was a penalty as well.This was identical to IIHF rules As a result the number of USA born and trained skaters in the NHL was very limited. Tommy Williams was the exception. Conversely two NA defensemen were named best of tournament at WCs during this period - Jean Paul Lamirande in 1959, a smallish Canadian who had brief NHL stints:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...lamirje01.html

http://www.legendsofhockey.net/Legen...p?player=13289

and John Mayasich, 1962 never approached the NHL. Both had problems with the aggressive forecheck in the defensive zone.

Given time and no potential contact, defensemen like John Hanna and Jean Gauthier looked good in exhibition games against the Soviets in the mid sixties but had sunk from the O6 because they could not handle an aggressive forecheck in the defensive zone.

Tommy Williams, a RW:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...willito01.html

Took almost two seasons in the EPHL getting used to the offensive and defensive nuances of the aggressive forecheck before making the NHL. Once the NCAA/IIHF rules were standardized to NHL rules American skaters found the transition from th NCAA to the NHL much easier. Previously star NCAA star defenseman like Doug Roberts and Lou Nanne struggled before converting to forward.

Sven Tumba showed some promise in a five game amateur tryout with Quebec in the QHL:

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p....php?pid=19004

but the Bruins low balled him on the pro contract and he returned to Sweden. Ulf Sterner showed promise, earning a brief NHL tryout but returned to Sweden:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...sternul01.html

Running up scores. Applies to Canadiens as well. Harry Watson, 1924, did likewise. The coattail view that since Hooley Smith did well in the NHL he would have done likewise is easily countered by looking at the NHL careers of linemates of Pierre Larouche, Denis Savard.

Kindly stop misrepresenting my points that are historically accurate.

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08-16-2012, 05:14 AM
  #648
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I agree, but this is the MLD. There are quite a few of those guys here. McSorley, Maloney, Corson, etc.

The thing is, at least they can play. better than polluting your lineup with garbage that is only there to fight. They're legit 4th liners. (I don't mean Corson, he's obviously more than that)
Quote:
While most dominant images of Tiger Williams likely include him sitting in the penalty box, he had an offensive scoring talent which often went overlooked due to his penchant for pugilism.
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Since debuting in the NHL in 1983-84, defenceman Marty McSorley has developed into one of the toughest customers in the game. His ability to rush with the puck and utilize a quick shot from the point has made him a prominent member of several NHL clubs.
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Dan Maloney 192 goals, 259 Assists, 451 Points
Agreed! Sorry for being off topic from your study 70s, but I need to get this off my chest. Saying guys like this didn't have skills is simply wrong. As 1 GM already pointed out in this thread, if a fight was started, both players went to the box and a PP is not created. If the Habs sent their #12 forward Reen Benchbrawl out for Gordie and Gordie dropped the gloves, it hurt the Wings a lot more than the Habs. Most teams in NHL history that won a Cup had an enforcer. We're not here to recreate the 2012 NHL, we're here to honor hockey history and that includes the judicious use of enforcers.

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08-16-2012, 07:25 AM
  #649
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Originally Posted by God Made Me View Post
Agreed! Sorry for being off topic from your study 70s, but I need to get this off my chest. Saying guys like this didn't have skills is simply wrong. As 1 GM already pointed out in this thread, if a fight was started, both players went to the box and a PP is not created. If the Habs sent their #12 forward Reen Benchbrawl out for Gordie and Gordie dropped the gloves, it hurt the Wings a lot more than the Habs. Most teams in NHL history that won a Cup had an enforcer. We're not here to recreate the 2012 NHL, we're here to honor hockey history and that includes the judicious use of enforcers.
Teams pre-expansion + 70's canadiens says,

and while you say enforcer I would label guys like "Tiger" as a goon. There is a difference between going out looking for trouble and protecting your stars from trouble.

Now most goons do a little bit of both but I rather have guys like McKay as my enforcer than a guy like Tiger.

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08-16-2012, 09:16 AM
  #650
tony d
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My 3 favourite picks (Besides my own) from each round of the draft:

Round 1: Tumba, Ulf Nilsson, Brian Bellows
Round 2: Carson Cooper, Pierre Larouche, Steve Vickers
Round 3: Hy Buller, Herb Cain, Darryl Sydor
Round 4: Charlie Burns, Anton Statsny, Gus Bodnar
Round 5: Don Edwards, Slava Kozlov, Fredrik Olausson
Round 6: Doc Romnes, Dave Christian, Tony Mckegney
Round 7: Claude Larose, Daniel Briere, Jiri Lala
Round 8: Alex Tanugay, Pete Peeters, Mario Marois
Round 9: Ulf Dahlen, Eddie Wiseman, Mike Ridley
Round 10: Joe Carveth, Miroslav Dvorak, Kirk Mclean
Round 11: Tom Hooper, Joe Juneau, Miroslav Satan
Round 12: Dave Gagner, Patrik Sundstrom, PJ Axelsson
Round 13: Terry Crisp, Russ Courtnall, Billy Nicholson
Round 14: Billy Harris, Christian Ehroff, Albert Langlois
Round 15: Sergei Babinov, Karel Gut, Jim Peplinski
Round 16/17: Gaetan Duschene, Bohuslav Statsny, Michael Nylander
Round 18/19: Scott Young, Sean Burke, Bob Murray
Round 20/21: Uwe Krupp, Robert Lang, Serge Bernier
Round 22/23: Bill Dineen, Reggie Lemelin, Dan Bouchard
Round 24/25: Bert Lindsay, Glen Murray, Tom Bladon

Also thanks to everyone for choosing some of my players as their favourite picks of a round. Glad to see Steve Thomas get a lot of respect. I drafted him for his goal scoring but the guy was also a good physical player, great pick all around.

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