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The MLD 2012 Thread II

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Old
08-16-2012, 01:33 PM
  #651
seventieslord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe
That's a little bit strongly worded. Daneyko was one of the best #3/4s in the league for a long time, for example.
well, yes and no. The scouting report books as late as 1993 were still talking about him as a highly limited player with lots of flaws. By 2003 he was clearly barely hanging on. For some period in between those years you could say he was one of the better 2nd pairing guys, yes.

my point (and it probably applies to Van Impe and Magnuson, too) was only that they were role players on very strong defensive teams but the guys carrying the Mail - Stevens, Watson brothers, White - were much bigger reasons the reasons the teams were elite defensively. It is likely that with Daneyko/Van Impe/Magnuson removed, the elite players would only have a slightly harder time keeping the team elite defensively, while if Daneyko/Van Impe/Magnuson were "the guy" on any team, it is not very likely that this team could be elite defensively.

It sounds like I'm trashing Daneyko when I say this, but even now, we are drafting guys who were "one of the better 3/4 guys in the league", right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by God Made Me View Post
Agreed! Sorry for being off topic from your study 70s, but I need to get this off my chest. Saying guys like this didn't have skills is simply wrong. As 1 GM already pointed out in this thread, if a fight was started, both players went to the box and a PP is not created. If the Habs sent their #12 forward Reen Benchbrawl out for Gordie and Gordie dropped the gloves, it hurt the Wings a lot more than the Habs. Most teams in NHL history that won a Cup had an enforcer. We're not here to recreate the 2012 NHL, we're here to honor hockey history and that includes the judicious use of enforcers.
C1958 wasn't saying they weren't skilled, though, he was saying that they could snap and lose you a game. My point kinda got lost in my reply. The point was really that coaches accept the bad to get the good. There is enough to like about all those players that you accept that they could snap. Their offensive potential is just one piece of that.

With that said, many of them only had the offensive totals they did by getting to ride shotgun for better players for a few seasons. They don't have that benefit here. So a guy like Tiger isn't going to score 40 points on your 4th line while Semenko has 5 goals banked off him all year. The difference is much smaller. But it's also not about production. The production is a bonus, but those point totals are still a good indicator of what level of "puck skills" a player had. The MLD is still a better league than the NHL overall since we're drawing from all of history. You want to get called up to the MLD, you better prove you can produce at the lower level first.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
Teams pre-expansion + 70's canadiens says,

and while you say enforcer I would label guys like "Tiger" as a goon. There is a difference between going out looking for trouble and protecting your stars from trouble.

Now most goons do a little bit of both but I rather have guys like McKay as my enforcer than a guy like Tiger.
"goon" is a really vague term. If you want to define it your own way, you could call a lot of players goons, even Corson, Bertuzzi, or Scott Hartnell. If you define it as a guy who "does nothing but fight", then Williams isn't close to counting in that category.

As far as McKay goes, he's an ok player, but I don't think he would have had the talent to put up 500 points regardless of era or linemates.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tony d View Post
Glad to see Steve Thomas get a lot of respect. I drafted him for his goal scoring but the guy was also a good physical player, great pick all around.
Stumpy is all heart.

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Old
08-16-2012, 01:57 PM
  #652
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Isolation

Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
well, yes and no. The scouting report books as late as 1993 were still talking about him as a highly limited player with lots of flaws. By 2003 he was clearly barely hanging on. For some period in between those years you could say he was one of the better 2nd pairing guys, yes.

my point (and it probably applies to Van Impe and Magnuson, too) was only that they were role players on very strong defensive teams but the guys carrying the Mail - Stevens, Watson brothers, White - were much bigger reasons the reasons the teams were elite defensively. It is likely that with Daneyko/Van Impe/Magnuson removed, the elite players would only have a slightly harder time keeping the team elite defensively, while if Daneyko/Van Impe/Magnuson were "the guy" on any team, it is not very likely that this team could be elite defensively.

It sounds like I'm trashing Daneyko when I say this, but even now, we are drafting guys who were "one of the better 3/4 guys in the league", right?

"goon" is a really vague term. If you want to define it your own way, you could call a lot of players goons, even Corson, Bertuzzi, or Scott Hartnell. If you define it as a guy who "does nothing but fight", then Williams isn't close to counting in that category.
All three were somewhat iffy if isolated and forced to skate. One on one physically they could handle the job but one on one and forced to play a skilled game they were in trouble.

"Goon" is a player who is on the roster initially because of his fighting skills. That he happens to come across a coach that can polish the rough edges and raw skills is a bonus - see Tiger Williams, Chris Nilan, Marty McSorley. If they then think they can get by on their newly polished skills they depart quickly.

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Old
08-16-2012, 02:13 PM
  #653
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Oren Frood , F
Jose Theodore , G
Mark Napier , RW

( dropping Brenden Witt )

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Old
08-16-2012, 02:34 PM
  #654
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Jose Theodore , G
I'm glad to see him get picked. I'm not sure why the Conn Smythe is seen as being much more valuable than a Hart.

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Old
08-16-2012, 02:39 PM
  #655
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
"goon" is a really vague term. If you want to define it your own way, you could call a lot of players goons, even Corson, Bertuzzi, or Scott Hartnell. If you define it as a guy who "does nothing but fight", then Williams isn't close to counting in that category.

As far as McKay goes, he's an ok player, but I don't think he would have had the talent to put up 500 points regardless of era or linemates.
McKay actually finished at ~75th in points in '98, I'm not sure if Williams were even in the top-90.

He your typical post-expansion goon who ran around cheapshotting and fought. That he occasionally potted a goal isn't really the point as it wasn't any significant numbers by any stretch.

I said McKay not only because of his offense but it seems to me that he was also superior defensively. Maybe thats why he was picked in the ATD but there is still some better enforcers/goons out there with a better offense record that Tiger.

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Old
08-16-2012, 02:56 PM
  #656
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Has anyone heard from Selfish Man? I think it's only him that needs to make up picks and the draft will be complete.

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Old
08-16-2012, 02:56 PM
  #657
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
McKay actually finished at ~75th in points in '98, I'm not sure if Williams were even in the top-90.

He your typical post-expansion goon who ran around cheapshotting and fought. That he occasionally potted a goal isn't really the point as it wasn't any significant numbers by any stretch.

I said McKay not only because of his offense but it seems to me that he was also superior defensively. Maybe thats why he was picked in the ATD but there is still some better enforcers/goons out there with a better offense record that Tiger.
Williams has two seasons better than McKay's best offensively. Honestly I think Williams has a definite edge in skills over most of the goon types picked here, but I got the impression his legend is more fierce than his actual fighting ability. Paul Holmgren or Willi Plett seemed like truer heavyweights than Tiger.

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Old
08-16-2012, 03:13 PM
  #658
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
McKay actually finished at ~75th in points in '98, I'm not sure if Williams were even in the top-90.

He your typical post-expansion goon who ran around cheapshotting and fought. That he occasionally potted a goal isn't really the point as it wasn't any significant numbers by any stretch.

I said McKay not only because of his offense but it seems to me that he was also superior defensively. Maybe thats why he was picked in the ATD but there is still some better enforcers/goons out there with a better offense record that Tiger.
not that I'm seeing.

also, I agree with what BBS said.

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Old
08-16-2012, 03:16 PM
  #659
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Just as a heads up, I'm going to be traveling between tonight and Sunday 8/26. I'm not going to be on much during that time.

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Old
08-16-2012, 03:33 PM
  #660
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For anyone who uses my spreadsheet of historical adjusted and situational stats, here's an update including the 2011-12 season.

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Old
08-16-2012, 03:38 PM
  #661
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Originally Posted by overpass View Post
For anyone who uses my spreadsheet of historical adjusted and situational stats, here's an update including the 2011-12 season.
Yoink!

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Old
08-16-2012, 05:32 PM
  #662
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
... C1958 wasn't saying they weren't skilled, though, he was saying that they could snap and lose you a game. My point kinda got lost in my reply. The point was really that coaches accept the bad to get the good. There is enough to like about all those players that you accept that they could snap. Their offensive potential is just one piece of that.

With that said, many of them only had the offensive totals they did by getting to ride shotgun for better players for a few seasons. They don't have that benefit here. So a guy like Tiger isn't going to score 40 points on your 4th line while Semenko has 5 goals banked off him all year. The difference is much smaller. But it's also not about production. The production is a bonus, but those point totals are still a good indicator of what level of "puck skills" a player had. The MLD is still a better league than the NHL overall since we're drawing from all of history. You want to get called up to the MLD, you better prove you can produce at the lower level first. ...
Agreed.

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Old
08-16-2012, 06:00 PM
  #663
seventieslord
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By the way, GMM, I would love it if you would answer this now that the draft is over.

Quote:
Originally Posted by God Made Me
Dreak and I both know an ATD Champ who thought the best player in this draft went in the 12th round.

Why be anonymous about this stuff? Just say who the GM and player are.

Iíll make a guess here. It wasnít meÖ It would not be arrbez, as he does not comment on MLD-related matters. It obviously wasnít TDMM; he wouldnít be talking to you during this draft. Pappyline and dreakmur donít see eye to eye last I knew, so I doubt they talk, though I do give it an outside chance that itís pappyline referring to Jim Morrison (the only player from pappyís era from round 12).

So, the GM in question would have to be Sturminator or EB. Sturminator hasnít logged in since May 18th so it isnít him. EB must be the guy. I really doubt heíd make such a statement regarding any vanilla NHLer, so itís already down to Amby Moran, Billy Gilmour, and Bob Trapp.

EB doesnít comment on MLD matters very often and doesnít have the same experience we do analyzing all these second tier players. Billy Gilmour, though, was an ATDer a few times during EBís tenure as an ATD GM.

My final answer is that itís EagleBelfour referring to Billy Gilmour. How close am I?

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Old
08-16-2012, 07:50 PM
  #664
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It's nice to see that chart seventies, I just don't agree that Mitchell is automatically the best defensive defenseman based on it. He's been backstopped in his career by great goaltending and defensive/conservative systems: Luongo/Vigneault (3 of those seasons), Quick/Terry Murray (2 of those seasons) Lemaire's system every season in Minnesota (3 of those seasons).

I just think that there are more extenuating circumstances here with Mitchell than meets the eye than to simply call him unequivocally the best defensive defenseman in the draft. He's picked his coaches well to really make himself look great in these systems. Of course, part of the reason they're so good defensively absolutely has to do with him, but at the same time, the system works with him to make him better.

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Old
08-19-2012, 09:09 PM
  #665
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We need to make a decision here on what is going on with Selfish Man. He still has 4 selections to make up I believe, and we're getting to that point where his roster should really be posted in the assassination stage. Any suggestions?

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Old
08-19-2012, 09:43 PM
  #666
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
We need to make a decision here on what is going on with Selfish Man. He still has 4 selections to make up I believe, and we're getting to that point where his roster should really be posted in the assassination stage. Any suggestions?
Check if he has participated on the board since his last post in the MLD.

His roster is short a goalie and thre other picks. He has a coach, four forward lines plus a spare, three defensive pairings, plus a goalie.

Find an experienced substitute GM.

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Old
08-19-2012, 09:46 PM
  #667
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Check if he has participated on the board since his last post in the MLD.

His roster is short a goalie and thre other picks. He has a coach, four forward lines plus a spare, three defensive pairings, plus a goalie.

Find an experienced substitute GM.
He hasn't been online since the 11th. So I think our course of action should probably be to get someone to fill in the picks if they wouldn't mind. We're not at the point of replacement or anything, but his roster does need posted to the assassination thread soon.

If there are any other past GMs out there paying attention who wouldn't mind making four selections for this squad, that would be appreciated.

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Old
08-19-2012, 10:08 PM
  #668
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Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
If there are any other past GMs out there paying attention who wouldn't mind making four selections for this squad, that would be appreciated.
MadArcand has been lurking. I'll PM him.

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Old
08-19-2012, 10:10 PM
  #669
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Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
He hasn't been online since the 11th. So I think our course of action should probably be to get someone to fill in the picks if they wouldn't mind. We're not at the point of replacement or anything, but his roster does need posted to the assassination thread soon.

If there are any other past GMs out there paying attention who wouldn't mind making four selections for this squad, that would be appreciated.
If nobody has any objections, I could finish off his team. There are still a handful of guys who I wish we had room for on our team.

If everyone is ok with it, I'll do it tomorrow afternoon.

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Old
08-19-2012, 10:16 PM
  #670
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
If nobody has any objections, I could finish off his team. There are still a handful of guys who I wish we had room for on our team.
If there are available past GMs to do it, then they should do it. PMs sent to two experienced GMs.

No big hurry, unless assassinations to end soon? Wednesday? Thursday? ... if assassinations are to go through next weekend then there's no hurry at all.

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Old
08-19-2012, 10:20 PM
  #671
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Note: There will be a AAA 2012 Draft this fall, so keep those lists of undrafteds to yourself or PM them later to someone who will be in the draft. There are indeed some good picks to be made.

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Old
08-19-2012, 10:22 PM
  #672
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Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
If there are available past GMs to do it, then they should do it. PMs sent to two experienced GMs.

No big hurry, unless assassinations to end soon? Wednesday? Thursday? ... if assassinations are to go through next weekend then there's no hurry at all.
Yep totally agree. Not that I don't trust you or anything Dreakmur, just it should be another GM.

Yeah assassinations should last through next weekend I'd say. I just think we should get the ball rolling on finding someone to make up those picks so that by the middle of the week Selfish Man's team can be in the assassination thread and maybe get a couple assassinations.

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Old
08-20-2012, 01:58 AM
  #673
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Shoulds we do an "All-Star Discussion" thread?

Since we're voting on all-stars this draft, it would be nice to get some information and discussion on players. I don't think that sort of thing belongs in the assassination thread, and it would be nice to have educated and well thought out all-star selections.

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Old
08-20-2012, 07:06 AM
  #674
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MadArcand has been lurking. I'll PM him.
I'm sorta watching the draft, but I don't think I'd be able to make good picks to finish out the team at this point - I don't have a clue who's available and I'd rather not mess with someone else's team. I think dreakmur would do a far better job than me at this point, TBH.

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Old
08-20-2012, 08:49 AM
  #675
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I'm here... back, whatever. Internet's been shut off for a week.

I'll fill out my roster asap once I figure out who's left.

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