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The MLD 2012 Thread II

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Old
08-21-2012, 02:35 PM
  #701
Dreakmur
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Your questions are overwhelmingly regarding Early Era, WHA and Internationals... your list is illuminating.
I didn't pick guys that I don't like. I picked guys that I find it hard to get an exact read on. It should be surprising that mosy of those guys are early non-NHLers.

You claim to know the value of all these players, so obviously you have some hidden information on them. Please share it!

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Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Why do you disagree about why the eight of them and I think them MLD worthy? Perhaps you should indicate why they bother you so?
I never said they weren't MLD worthy.

I am, however, not convinced exactly how good they are. Since most of them don't have direct frames of reference, there has to be some guessing involved.

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08-21-2012, 02:36 PM
  #702
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Sounds good. I'll just pick names out of your list. Since you're so convinced about these guys, maybe you could share your reasons and convince me about them.

Capitals: Tom Paton, Moose Watson, Paul Shmyr
Brynäs: Sven Tumba
Whale: Scotty Davidson, Billy Nicholson, André Lacroix
Duquesne: Valery Kamensky, Andrei Khomutov, Billy Breen
Icecaps: Jimmy Gardner
Mariners: Igor Stelnov, Sergei Starikov
Hornets: Slim Halderson
Monarchs: Billy McGimsie, Joe Cooper
If you read the Kamensky bio, you'll see that prior to injury he was incredible and considered one of the best players in the world. It is my opinion that he peaked at around 23-24 or so, got hurt, then had a lot of strong support scoring seasons next to Forsberg. He absolutely belongs on a top line here.

Khomutov bio is also pretty good. The Kamensky-Bykov-Khomutov line was considered the equal of the KLM line in mid-late 80s (so when the KLM line's prime was closing but still that's high praise)

Breen....pretty much what we have to go on is that he was a 5 time scoring champ in the Winnipeg league against guys like Phillips and McGimsie. I asked Iain Fyffe about his playmaking skill and he said he thinks he was a strong playmaker, and he said he's planning on doing a post on Breen at some point on his site, but hasn't gotten to it yet. Also, despite that quote in Breen's bio saying that he was a "noted checker" he doesn't think Breen had much defensive skill.

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08-21-2012, 02:37 PM
  #703
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
The "Rob Blake syndrome" is where the media can't possibly watch an adequate sample of all 30 teams, so they vote for a defenseman who looks good on the stats sheet and on highlight reels.

Not the case in the O6 era: every team played each other 14 times and media traveled with the team, so voters saw a signifcant sample of every player. Also, Fontinato's stats don't exactly stand out
To me the Rob Blake syndrome is more of the "If his hits looks good he must be good".

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08-21-2012, 03:42 PM
  #704
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The Injury Factor

Quote:
Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
If you read the Kamensky bio, you'll see that prior to injury he was incredible and considered one of the best players in the world. It is my opinion that he peaked at around 23-24 or so, got hurt, then had a lot of strong support scoring seasons next to Forsberg. He absolutely belongs on a top line here.

Khomutov bio is also pretty good. The Kamensky-Bykov-Khomutov line was considered the equal of the KLM line in mid-late 80s (so when the KLM line's prime was closing but still that's high praise)

Breen....pretty much what we have to go on is that he was a 5 time scoring champ in the Winnipeg league against guys like Phillips and McGimsie. I asked Iain Fyffe about his playmaking skill and he said he thinks he was a strong playmaker, and he said he's planning on doing a post on Breen at some point on his site, but hasn't gotten to it yet. Also, despite that quote in Breen's bio saying that he was a "noted checker" he doesn't think Breen had much defensive skill.
The injury factor. True for about 25 players in this draft. Before the injuries or tragedy hit they were on track for excellent careers.

Issue is building a consensus about such players.

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08-21-2012, 04:04 PM
  #705
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
The injury factor. True for about 25 players in this draft. Before the injuries or tragedy hit they were on track for excellent careers.

Issue is building a consensus about such players.
You should be able to expect to get that player at their best, at their peak moments within an MLD season. But, a shorter career should mean that it won't be as consistent. An injury-riddled career means an injury-riddled MLD season.

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08-21-2012, 05:05 PM
  #706
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Interesting

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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
You should be able to expect to get that player at their best, at their peak moments within an MLD season. But, a shorter career should mean that it won't be as consistent. An injury-riddled career means an injury-riddled MLD season.
Interesting. This should also apply to the ATD. Afraid to ask what would happen to the likes of Charlie Gardiner, Hod Stuart, et al.

Obviously there should be better interpretations.

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08-21-2012, 05:47 PM
  #707
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Interesting. This should also apply to the ATD. Afraid to ask what would happen to the likes of Charlie Gardiner, Hod Stuart, et al.

Obviously there should be better interpretations.
If Charlie Gardiner maintained his level of play over a full career, he would probably be drafted sometime around Brodeur and Hall. But he didn't, so he isn't.

Hod Stuart died as an active player, but his career to that point was already a respectable length of players of that era

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08-21-2012, 05:54 PM
  #708
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post


Everyone to make 40 selections of the top 5 in each of the following eight categories:

I. Top 6 Forward
II. Bottom 6 Forward
III. Defense
IV. Goaltending
V. Coaching
VI. Spares
VII. Worst picks
VIII. Best picks from one's own team


Then, after the results are released, we have a template from which to discuss and do further voting (re: from one's own team plus finalists for the MVP and best at each position awards).

PM them to me and ________ a mod or yellow star (we have the inbox room)
Isn't it a little early for this?

I thought we were going to do a thread allowing people to sell some of their players to spark discussion first

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08-21-2012, 06:25 PM
  #709
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Isn't it a little early for this?

I thought we were going to do a thread allowing people to sell some of their players to spark discussion first
right, also those first three categories will be at least top-10s, and we're discussing whether to make it more than that.

and "best picks from one's own team" is pretty much the 5 guys we choose to pimp, no?

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08-24-2012, 09:54 AM
  #710
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Isn't it a little early for this?

I thought we were going to do a thread allowing people to sell some of their players to spark discussion first
That was your idea.

I think it's time to move on.

The playoffs are long and there's plenty of time to reflect on picks concurrently during the playoffs!

Let's start the playoffs by the beginning of September, shall we? That means getting regular season rankings in next week,... which means setting a reasonable notice beforehand of when votes are due,... which means making a decision no later than this weekend please.

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08-24-2012, 10:43 AM
  #711
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GMs please vote:

1. Should we have a "pimping" stage where we promote up to 5 players of our choice from our teams? Keep in mind that if you don't participate that is fine and doesn't necessarily mean the rest of us shouldn't do it.

2. Shall some of us post our prelimnary top-x lists in an effort to generate discussions and people making cases for players and comparisons between players?

3. If part 1 and/or 2 happen, then we should all have a stronger and fresher base of knowledge on which to base our votes. If so, should we bump up to vote set sizes of a) 20 & 10, b) 15 & 8? or c) leave it at 10 & 5?

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08-24-2012, 10:47 AM
  #712
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I think we should be allowed to do #1 concurrently with assassinations (which are scheduled to run this weekend). At this point it should be less formal since we don't have time to make it formal. As soon as I hear back from Dreakmur, I'll post an MVP and 5-6 additonal All Star candidates with a few bullet points about each one. Others can follow suit or do it before me

Let's see how discussion goes before bumping the vote size. I'm leaning against it, but it's not a big deal

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08-24-2012, 10:48 AM
  #713
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Novice opinion: Let the GMs pimp their own players because they chose them for a reason I have to believe. Let's see what kind of "pimping" we get first before we start expanding things, no? If we get each GM or most GMs to get in here and start discussing their players, then we'll have a lot more to go off of...

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Old
08-24-2012, 03:33 PM
  #714
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Vote these players for the All Star teams (and our team MVP for MVP)

Team MVP: Paddy Moran

•only goalie in the MLD in the HHOF
•Quebec's starting goalie for 15 straight seasons, back when the league was much smaller
•Newspaper reports indicate that Moran was considered by some to be the best goalie in the world at his peak (around 1910). Competition included HHOFers Percy Leseuer and Riley Hern. And Moran was remembered as such in the 1930s.
•Lester Patrick names him his #1 goalie of all time over Percy Leseuer in 1927
•Russell Bowie thought he was the hardest goalie to beat

Other All Stars:

Top 6 forward: Jimmy Ward

• His offensive accomplishments are as good as almost any other winger in the draft:
Points finishes: 9th(1929), 11th(1932), 15th(1936), 16th(1933)
Point Percentages: 78, 76, 76, 75, 62, 52, 50
• Yet he's known even more for his defense and hard work than his offense
• regularly checked Busher Jackson and Aurel Joliat and was fast enough to keep up with them

Top 6 forward: Ed Sandford

• Selected to play in 5 All Star Games, only 1 as the last Cup winner
• Bruins captain for a season
• Huge, tough, well rounded - the ultimate glue guy
• Known for playing head to head against the Bentley brothers and roughing them up
• Finished 8th in scoring in his career best year (dropoff to his next best offensive year though)
• Can play all forward positions
• Awarded a Retro Conn Smythe by the HHOF for 1953

Bottom 6 forward: Billy Gilmour

•known for his stickhandling, back checking, and toughness
•3 times ECHA All Star RW all over players who outscored him, sometimes badly
•Lester Patrick's All Time RW selected in 1927
•Russel Bowie called him the 2nd best player (after Frank McGee) that he ever played against
•Alf Smith (coach of the Silver 7) indicated that Gilmour was his favorite of the Silver 7

Defenseman: Mike Green

• Only player in the MLD to be an NHL 1st Team All Star twice
• Led the NHL in points among defensemen twice, goals among defensemen 3 times
• Only defenseman from 1993-94 to present to break 30 goals
• His weaknesses are well insulted by Paddy Moran, Walter Buswell, and defensively responsible forwards

Defenseman: Doug Young

• Captain of the Detroit Red Wings from 1935-1938, including the back to back 1936 and 1937 Cup winners.
• 7th, 9th , 10th in All Star voting, plus received a single vote 2 more times
• played in the 1939 Babe Seibert Memorial Game (an early All Star Game)
• known as an excellent defensive defenseman and puck handler
• didn't leave the NHL because he wasn't good enough; an independent AHL team bought his rights from the Red Wings for a hefty fee in 1939.
• AHL 1st Team All Star in 1941

Defenseman: Miroslav Dvorak

•Finished 2nd to Milan Novy for best player in Czechoslovakia in both 1981 and 1982
•Played in every major International Tournament for the Czechoslovak National Team from 1974-1983
•Domestic scoring shows that he could handle the puck, despite being known primarily as a tough, defensive defenseman
•Drafted in the 3rd round, 46th overall by the Flyers, despite his age.
•First player over 30 years old to be drafted by an NHL team.
•Barry Ashbee Award for best Flyers defenseman in 1983-84 at the age of 32

Anyone else who wishes to do this, feel free to follow suit. Try to limit it to 6-7 players like we did. If you pimp every player on your team, nobody will take it seriously

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08-24-2012, 04:40 PM
  #715
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Informative, to the point and absent any superlatives.

THAT is a fantastic thing to do.

It's way better than what I expected: babbling on and on about how great one player is according to some numerical analysis or generalizing discussion in paragraph form long on pimping and short on the essence of the matter.

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08-24-2012, 04:41 PM
  #716
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Who to vote for on the Wininpeg Monarchs:

Wally Hergesheimer (Top 6 Forward)

-4x Top 11 in Goals
-Two times an NHL All Star based on merit
-Known as a net crasher, and very good at deflections and rebounds
-5th in goals over his 5 year peak(everyone else in top 12 were all taken in ATD)

Blaine Stoughton (Top 6 Forward)

-4x Top 15 Goals in high-flying 1980s
-Might have the best goal-scoring peak of anyone in the draft
-Accomplished this on a very mediocre Hartford team with little talent around him
-Admittedly weak in areas besides offense, but goalscoring is top notch

Alexei Zhamnov (Bottom 6 Forward)

-7x over 50% of 2nd place scoring(including one season of 100%) as bottom 6 forward
-7x Top 4 PK TOI/G in Chicago, the team was terrible but the PK was basically the same or better than the league average in all but 2 of those years
-Decent defensive player, while being one of the better offensive bottom 6 forwards in the draft

Larry Hillman (Defenseman)

-Bounced around the league/AHL, but mostly due to the fact that he was playing behind Tim Horton, Allan Stanley, Bob Baun, Carl Brewer, and Marcel Pronovost
-One of the best defensemen in the AHL while he was stuck behind ATD level defensemen
-4x Top 12 in scoring among defensemen, despite being known mostly as a stay at home defenseman

Sergei Babinov (Defenseman)

-Played 162 career games for Soviet national team, 13th most all time
-John Ferguson Sr. said he played a game very conducive to the NHL, and if Ferguson could take one Soviet and bring him to the NHL, Babinov would be the one.
-Very hard hitting defenseman
-Little offensive game, meaning that it was his physicality and likely strong defensive play that kept him on the Soviet national team for so long

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Old
08-24-2012, 05:42 PM
  #717
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
Alexei Zhamnov (Bottom 6 Forward)

-7x over 50% of 2nd place scoring(including one season of 100%) as bottom 6 forward
-7x Top 4 PK TOI/G in Chicago, the team was terrible but the PK was basically the same or better than the league average in all but 2 of those years
-Decent defensive player, while being one of the better offensive bottom 6 forwards in the draft
I disagree. Zhamnov is a Top-6 forward or BENCH. I saw him play and he was an open ice floater who didn't backcheck in the corners, didn't shadow his man. That was the knock on him.

He was good for the penalty kill because of his conservative positional play up the middle, which can help when the opposition has a man advantage. He was a top-6 style player who, like Gretz, was on the pk. THAT does not in itself say anything about his Bottom-6 chops.

He doesn't bring intensity to an energy line or grit or hustle or boardwork to a third or fourth line. He is ideally a Top-6 starter, the only question being at what level (MLD or AAA - certainly nowhere near ATD capable, so therefore not a MLD all-star).

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08-25-2012, 08:42 AM
  #718
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Who to vote for on the Blaze:

Team MVP: Billy Taylor

- League Leader in Assists in 1946-1947
- 369 Adjusted Points in 323 Games
- 3 Top 10 finishes in points for a season.

Top 6 Forward: Steve Thomas

- 4 Top 10 finishes in Goals for A Season
- 72nd All Time in Career Goals
- 2 40 Goal Seasons

Top 6 Forward: Erich Kuchnachl

- 724 Career Goals in 774 German League Games
- 75 Points in 75 World Championship Games
- Led the 1984 Olympics in Scoring

Bottom 6 Forward: Tony Granato

- 4 30 Goal Seasons
- Solid offensive and defensive contributor throughout his career
- Appeared in the 1997 All Star Game

Defenseman: Jeff Brown

- 3 20 Goal Seasons, 2 50 Assist Seasons
- 65 Points in 87 Career Playoff Games, 584 Points in 767 Career Games
- Tied for 2nd in Playoff Scoring for the Blues in 1993

Defenseman: Joe Jerwa

- Valuable defensive guy who can chip in offensively
- Adjusted totals of 180 points in 234 games
- Led the New York Americans in playoff scoring in 1935 (Might not seem like much considering the team but he did beat out Sweeney Schriner and Nels Stewart)

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08-25-2012, 10:37 AM
  #719
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Who to vote for on Yarmouth

Team MVP: Robbie Ftorek
4 time WHA All Star (2 first, 2 second)
1 time WHA MVP
6th place in Selke voting in 1981

Top 6 Forward: Marian Stastny
322 points in 238 czech league games, 294 points in 322 nhl games
solid international record (5 points in 7 canada cup games, 11 points in 6 olympic games)
Anton and Peter insisted Marian was the most talented of the 3

Bottom 6 forward: Sami Kapanen
458 points in 831 nhl games, 262 points in 329 SM-Liiga games
2 time NHL All Star, 3 time SM-Liiga All Star
2001 world championships best forward/leading scorer
one of the fastest players in hockey and regarded as a very good player both offensively and defensively

Bottom 6: Larry Patey
strong Selke record: 3rd (Gainey 142pts, Ramasy 125, Patey 99 in 1981), 6th, 17th, 29th
top penalty killer and serious SHG threat (1st, 3rd, 5th, 9th)
316 points in 717 career nhl games

Defense: Bingo Kampman
3 time Allan Cup Finalist (1936, 37, 43)
3 time Stanley Cup Finalist (1939, 40, 42) winning in 42
finished 5th, 7th, 9th in All Star voting
finished 6th and 14th in dman scoring
ambidextrous, regarded as a hard hitting, fearless defender

Defense: Hy Buller
3 time Calder Cup Champion
2 time AHL first team All Star
2nd team NHL All Star in 1952
NHL defense scoring finishes: 2nd, 4th, 13th (missed 1/3rd of season)
AHL defense scoring finishes: 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 6th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 12th
was regarded as a strong offensive player that could throw big checks and played with a chip on his shoulder in his own zone

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08-25-2012, 04:40 PM
  #720
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Just so's I'm clear -- am I voting for the historically best players in the league? Or is our fantasy-league situation (ie, linemates, coaching, division) a major deciding factor?

Or to phrase it differently, what does "all star" actually mean in this situation?

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08-25-2012, 07:01 PM
  #721
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
Just so's I'm clear -- am I voting for the historically best players in the league? Or is our fantasy-league situation (ie, linemates, coaching, division) a major deciding factor?

Or to phrase it differently, what does "all star" actually mean in this situation?
You're voting for the best players in their category (top-6, bottom-6, defense, etc)

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08-25-2012, 08:37 PM
  #722
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
You're voting for the best players in their category (top-6, bottom-6, defense, etc)
Trying to think of a way to phrase this...

Am I voting for the players who were the best historically, or the players I project to have the best hypothetical MLD season?

IE, say I feel the best player won't be used to the best of his ability. Is that a factor?

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08-25-2012, 09:10 PM
  #723
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
Am I voting for the players who were the best historically, or the players I project to have the best hypothetical MLD season?
Excellent question, going to the heart of something I've mentioned before. There is a difference between 1) The best picks of the draft that ought to have been drafted in the ATD; and 2) The best performers in this MLD given the team they are playing on, linemates, particular role on this given squad.

The all-star team involves the overall judgement of value of all GMs according to any criteria they individually wish to use. So, the answer to your question is: both, or either, your call.

Regarding 1: It stands to reason that a top-6 role MLD all-star would unlikely be a top-6 ATD starter (though a guy like Kamensky has been both a MLD all-star and a ATD starter before!). There are several top-6 role guys in this MLD whom I think would be excellent ATD extra skaters; there are top-pairing MLD dmen I think great ATD third pairing or 7th dmen; a couple of MLD starting goalies that I think would be worthy ATD backups, etc.

Regarding 2: You look at a MLD team and think: this and that player would do great here, on this team against this level of competition. That line is utterly fantastic so the best player of the line would be a star of the team, this goalie is playing behind an incredible defense, that bottom-6 player ought to thrive on that line and be a top performer here, etc.

Ideally, I think the MVP should be for 2 and the all-star team picks for 1. That is certainly what was originally intended when we started them. But, each GM has been left in recent years to draft whichever they think 'best' in whatever capacity they individually determine. Lots of factors are at play. Basically, the all-star team signifies popular picks, not why.

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08-25-2012, 09:20 PM
  #724
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
IE, say I feel the best player won't be used to the best of his ability. Is that a factor?
I just imagine the coach that was drafted for the team telling the team GM (one of us) where we can put it, because it's the coach's job to decide lines! What we as GMs do is make the best picks available and draft a coach to coach them and imagine what the coach might do. I personally don't judge line-ups too harshly in regular season rankings voting if the GM has a line-up configuration different than I think ideal. If they put two power forwards on the same line and I think the team would perform better with them split up, then when I vote I imagine the coach would do just that. As long as the GM drafted all the right tools, all the pieces to the puzzle, that is what matters in regular season ranking voting to me - and by extension - in all-star voting if a player is overplayed, or played out of position (there's a center on right wing of a line that wouldn't work imo) then I simply re-arrange the line-up in my mind to what their coach would or should do, and vote accordingly.

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08-26-2012, 02:39 PM
  #725
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I suppose I'll hop on the pimping bandwagon.

Team MVP: Herb Jordan
- Three Top-3's in CAHL Scoring (2nd, 3rd, 3rd)
- 4th Most Assists in recorded top-level hockey (CAHL/ECAHA), 1903-1909 seasons
- 33rd in pre-merger goals

Top-6 Forward: Craig Janney
- scored 188 goals and 563 assists for 751 points in 760 games.
- scored 24 goals and 86 assists for 110 points in 120 playoff games.
- 4 Top-10's in Assists (5, 6, 7, 9), and 2 Top-10's in Playoff Assists (2, 4)

Bottom-6 Forward: Nick Libett
- Six 20+ goal seasons
- A reputable checker, would often be pitted against Hall of Famers Rod Gilbert or Guy Lafleur.
- scored 237 goals and 268 assists for 505 points in 982 games played
- 7th in 1979 Selke Voting

Bottom-6 Forward: Colin Patterson
- Finished 3rd in Selke Voting in 1989, behind Guy Carbonneau and Esa Tikkanen.
- A tenacious checker, a fixture on the penalty kill.
- scored 96 goals and 110 assists for 206 points in 504 games played.

Defense: Bob Dailey
- Solid, behemoth defenseman who excelled at both ends of the ice, was remarkably agile.
- Received All-Star Voting Recognition throughout his career.
- scored 94 goals and 231 assists for 325 points in 561 games played.

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