HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > Fantasy Hockey Talk > All Time Draft
All Time Draft Fantasy league where players of the past and present meet.

The MLD 2012 Thread II

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
08-07-2012, 03:49 PM
  #151
Hedberg
MLD Glue Guy
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: BC, Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 16,166
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I think the true star European players from the time (guys like Tumba) deserve to be recognized for being dominant against the competiton. But I agree with you that some GMs here are a little too forgiving towards the second tier European standouts of the era
Or perhaps we underrate some Canadians playing international hockey at the time. More than talent (financial and geographic considerations) sometime came in to playing in the NHL during pre-expansion.

Hedberg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-07-2012, 04:27 PM
  #152
Canadiens1958
Registered User
 
Canadiens1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 10,760
vCash: 500
AHL / WHL / QHL etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I think the true star European players from the time (guys like Tumba) deserve to be recognized for being dominant against the competiton. But I agree with you that some GMs here are a little too forgiving towards the second tier European standouts of the era
Think it is a question of bridging the gap and building an understanding of the various North American leagues like the AHL / WHL / QHL / EPHL, etc. This will provide a better perspective of Sven Tumba's five game stint with Quebec in the QHL or Ulf Sterner's AHL / CHL play and may provide a better understanding of their European contemporaries.

The second point is that certain NHL players are vastly overrated.
Very true for the swing forwards or 5th defensemen from the O6 era. Example would be Bob Turner. Played 8 seasons in the NHL:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...turnebo01.html

One solid year when Doug Harvey had an injury plagued season but he had a roster spot because he was a good skater who could fill five positions - LD, RD, and the two forward positions on the PK and play LW in a pinch, in an era when rosters were limited to a max of 16 skaters.

The Canadiens and other NHL teams as well as various minor league indies had better defensemen but these players were on position players - either LD or RD and a fifth defenseman in the NHL had to have versatility.

Canadiens1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-07-2012, 04:53 PM
  #153
VanIslander
17/07/2014 ATD RIP
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 17,956
vCash: 500
There's nothing second rate about Karel Gut in comparison to Frantisek Tikal. The mystery remains: Why does Tikal go so high in the ATD but Gut keeps dropping.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Tikal was likely the 2nd best defenseman in Europe (after Ragulin) in the first half of the 1960s, and there was a minority opinion at the time that he was better than Ragulin. So he stood out more versus other European defensemen than Gut and he did it against better competiton than Gut faced in the 1950s
You think Tikal played against better competition than Gut?? Do you know much about either player? They were blueline PARTNERS!

Here is Tikal and his captain and longtime linemate Gut together:


From a past MLD bio:
Quote:
Karel Gut, the longtime blueline partner of Frantisek Tikal, and if the latter is an ATD staple going middraft, then the former ought to be drafted as an all-time great as well. Gut, not Tikal, was the captain of the Czechoslavakian team captain for 10 years. Gut was the offensive defenseman of the pair, Tikal the stay at home partner. Gut had played soccer early on, and was center in hockey before moving back to the blueline with Tikal. Gut was Best Defenseman at the 1955 world championships, scoring twice and assisting too to lead his nation to its first ever medal. Gut scored 4 goals to pace the team to another world championship Bronze two year later. He would captain them to a third such medal in 1959. Gut had scored 10 goals in five world championships and he had success at the Olympics as well: in the 1952 Games the 25 year old scored 2 goals and an assist, scoring 4 goals and an assist in the 1956 Olympics and an international career-high 7 points as a 33 year old in the 1960 Olympics. Gut had scored 34 goals in 114 international matches and he was inducted into the IIHF hall of fame in 1998.

Quote:
One of the best defenders in czech hockey history. His offensive style was groundbreaking
http://hokej.idnes.cz/karel-gut-kapi...-hokej-2008_ot

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kings Of the Ice, p. 322
Karel Gut loved to make daring moves that weren't very popular with coaches... part of the reason may be that he started out as a forward and was retrained as a defenseman...Formed a defensive due with Frantisek Tikal. "When I went on the attack, he covered my back."

VanIslander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-07-2012, 05:00 PM
  #154
VanIslander
17/07/2014 ATD RIP
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 17,956
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
A minor procedural suggestion for future drafts: start the double-pick rounds after Round 20. That allows everyone a shot at completing their basic lineup before players start to fly off the board at an accelerated pace.
Humbly submitted.
We're all equal here, no need to be humble, you're just as great!

We've done it BOTH ways before, double picks from round 17/18 (when we used to pick 24) and from later. We are a week into August and the draft is half done. At this pace we won't even get to assassinations untilthe middle of September and start the playoffs in October. Based on past experience, picking up the pace with double picks has preserved activity, kept interest, and gotten to assassinations and playoffs without a sense of 'dragging on'.

But if you are as busy this summer as I am, then we can go ahead and delay double picks. Just get one of the three mods in this draft to edit the op to split the double picks into single picks. I'm pretty swamped and on the go today and tomorrow myself.

G'day.

VanIslander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-07-2012, 05:10 PM
  #155
VanIslander
17/07/2014 ATD RIP
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 17,956
vCash: 500
239. BenchBrawl - Montreal Maroons - SKIPPED
240. seventieslord - Regina Capitals - ON THE CLOCK (for ONE or THREE picks, depending on whether it wil be Round 16 next or the set Rounds 16/17 double picks, as per the pre-draft original post which no one objected to earlier.)

seventieslord can decide it by whichever way he picks, and adjust the draft order accordingly. (or one of the other two mods can chip in their vote, supporting the two who want it single rounds still; three is sufficient, go for it if you really want to; I gave the reason why it was set as it presently is, and has been in a few drafts I've administered before).

VanIslander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-07-2012, 05:15 PM
  #156
Canadiens1958
Registered User
 
Canadiens1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 10,760
vCash: 500
Six Years

Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
There's nothing second rate about Karel Gut in comparison to Frantisek Tikal. The mystery remains: Why does Tikal go so high in the ATD but Gut keeps dropping.


You think Tikal played against better competition than Gut?? Do you know much about either player? They were blueline PARTNERS!

Here is Tikal and his captain and longtime linemate Gut together:


From a past MLD bio:
Karel Gut was almost six years older than Frantisek Tikal, so they were not defensive partners the length of their careers.

Canadiens1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-07-2012, 05:15 PM
  #157
jkrx
Registered User
 
jkrx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,196
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Think it is a question of bridging the gap and building an understanding of the various North American leagues like the AHL / WHL / QHL / EPHL, etc. This will provide a better perspective of Sven Tumba's five game stint with Quebec in the QHL or Ulf Sterner's AHL / CHL play and may provide a better understanding of their European contemporaries.

The second point is that certain NHL players are vastly overrated.
Very true for the swing forwards or 5th defensemen from the O6 era. Example would be Bob Turner. Played 8 seasons in the NHL:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...turnebo01.html

One solid year when Doug Harvey had an injury plagued season but he had a roster spot because he was a good skater who could fill five positions - LD, RD, and the two forward positions on the PK and play LW in a pinch, in an era when rosters were limited to a max of 16 skaters.

The Canadiens and other NHL teams as well as various minor league indies had better defensemen but these players were on position players - either LD or RD and a fifth defenseman in the NHL had to have versatility.
I will write a complete bio on Sterner and probably add to my Tumba one.

Sterners one shot in the NHL was rushed. Not only did he have a concussion but he was moved around too much. Emile Francis admitted this afterwards. Regretting that moving him up from St. Paul in the first place was a mistake. Sadly I'm still searching for the book with the complete story of Sterners north american adventure.

He became good friend with Andy Bathgate and Camille Henry is basically the only thing I remember.

jkrx is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
08-07-2012, 05:17 PM
  #158
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 38,174
vCash: 500
I admittedly know more about Tikal than Gut because I'm much more interested in European hockey in the 60s, when the sport started to take off.

Here is what I do know:

Gut was 6 years older than Tikal, which is a long time in a rapidly developing sport (as European hockey was in the 1950s into the 60s). Tikal turned 27 in 1960; Gut turned 33. Tikal is the one I've seen compared to Ragulin.

Gut played in the CSSR top league from 1950-1964 and played for the national team from 1952-1960 - bascially the weakest period of time for Czech hockey (Remember that most of the great National Team from the late 40s was imprisoned by thr Communists in 1950). He was bascially finished around the time European hockey got strong.

Tikal played in the CSSR top league from 1952-1968 and for the National Team from 1957-1967.

Gut was selected the best defenseman at the 1955 World Championships; Tikal was selected the best defenseman at the 1964 and 1965 World Championships.

For comparison the two best Soviet defensemen of the 60s competed in the World Championships from 1961-1973 (Ragulin) and 1963-1972 (Davydov).

Tikal is the guy whose career overlapped with the Soviets who played in the Summit Series (and be won 2 Directorate Best Defenseman awards over them).

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
08-07-2012, 05:21 PM
  #159
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 38,174
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hedberg View Post
Or perhaps we underrate some Canadians playing international hockey at the time. More than talent (financial and geographic considerations) sometime came in to playing in the NHL during pre-expansion.
This is definitely an interesting point and one worth exploring further. Something of a Counterargument would be that the Canadian amateurs started getting their butts kicked by the USSR around 1963, so we know that generation of Soviets was much stronger than the one who came before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Think it is a question of bridging the gap and building an understanding of the various North American leagues like the AHL / WHL / QHL / EPHL, etc. This will provide a better perspective of Sven Tumba's five game stint with Quebec in the QHL or Ulf Sterner's AHL / CHL play and may provide a better understanding of their European contemporaries.

The second point is that certain NHL players are vastly overrated.
Very true for the swing forwards or 5th defensemen from the O6 era. Example would be Bob Turner. Played 8 seasons in the NHL:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...turnebo01.html

One solid year when Doug Harvey had an injury plagued season but he had a roster spot because he was a good skater who could fill five positions - LD, RD, and the two forward positions on the PK and play LW in a pinch, in an era when rosters were limited to a max of 16 skaters.

The Canadiens and other NHL teams as well as various minor league indies had better defensemen but these players were on position players - either LD or RD and a fifth defenseman in the NHL had to have versatility.
Interesting stuff. Bob Turner used to go in the main draft and was always controversial. This is the best description of his role that I rememeber seeing

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
08-07-2012, 05:23 PM
  #160
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 38,174
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
239. BenchBrawl - Montreal Maroons - SKIPPED
240. seventieslord - Regina Capitals - ON THE CLOCK (for ONE or THREE picks, depending on whether it wil be Round 16 next or the set Rounds 16/17 double picks, as per the pre-draft original post which no one objected to earlier.)

seventieslord can decide it by whichever way he picks, and adjust the draft order accordingly. (or one of the other two mods can chip in their vote, supporting the two who want it single rounds still; three is sufficient, go for it if you really want to; I gave the reason why it was set as it presently is, and has been in a few drafts I've administered before).
I don't think mods should have any more power to change rules than anyone else.

Personally, I don't care when double picks start, but it seems a little late to have the discussion as they are supposed to have already started.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
08-07-2012, 05:32 PM
  #161
Canadiens1958
Registered User
 
Canadiens1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 10,760
vCash: 500
Agree

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I don't think mods should have any more power to change rules than anyone else.

Personally, I don't care when double picks start, but it seems a little late to have the discussion as they are supposed to have already started.
Agree since certain picks were based on the format. Changing the format now would be disruptive and cause more delays.

Canadiens1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-07-2012, 05:36 PM
  #162
Canadiens1958
Registered User
 
Canadiens1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 10,760
vCash: 500
Thank You

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
This is definitely an interesting point and one worth exploring further. Something of a Counterargument would be that the Canadian amateurs started getting their butts kicked by the USSR around 1963, so we know that generation of Soviets was much stronger than the one who came before.



Interesting stuff. Bob Turner used to go in the main draft and was always controversial. This is the best description of his role that I rememeber seeing
Thank you. Once the draft is over I will make similar analogies for other players.

Canadiens1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-07-2012, 05:54 PM
  #163
Canadiens1958
Registered User
 
Canadiens1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 10,760
vCash: 500
Pressure

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
I will write a complete bio on Sterner and probably add to my Tumba one.

Sterners one shot in the NHL was rushed. Not only did he have a concussion but he was moved around too much. Emile Francis admitted this afterwards. Regretting that moving him up from St. Paul in the first place was a mistake. Sadly I'm still searching for the book with the complete story of Sterners north american adventure.

He became good friend with Andy Bathgate and Camille Henry is basically the only thing I remember.
Pressure to rush Ulf Sterner to the NHL since the Rangers were not a playoff quality team and not very patient.

Canadiens1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-07-2012, 05:55 PM
  #164
Hobnobs
Pinko
 
Hobnobs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Country: Sweden
Posts: 3,000
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
This is definitely an interesting point and one worth exploring further. Something of a Counterargument would be that the Canadian amateurs started getting their butts kicked by the USSR around 1963, so we know that generation of Soviets was much stronger than the one who came before.
or the soviets learned how to play against them. There is also other things to consider other than players skill like a change of tactics for example.

Hobnobs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-07-2012, 06:14 PM
  #165
Hedberg
MLD Glue Guy
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: BC, Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 16,166
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
or the soviets learned how to play against them. There is also other things to consider other than players skill like a change of tactics for example.
I think a lot of it was development. The Soviets didn't really play hockey until 1946, so by the early 60s the first players who had grown up playing hockey rather than bandy began to play internationally. For example, I don't think Bobrov played hockey until he was 23.

Hedberg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-07-2012, 06:16 PM
  #166
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 38,174
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
or the soviets learned how to play against them. There is also other things to consider other than players skill like a change of tactics for example.
The Soviets went from being about 0.500 vs Canadian amateurs and sometimes losing to the Swedes to absolutely obliterating them both almost overnight in 1963. 1963 also corresponds almost exactly to a generation change in the USSR as Firsov, Starshinov, Ragulin, Davydov, and others all joined the National Team at around the same time.

I think it's clear that there was a generational shift in Soviet hockey at the time that can't be explained away by "They finally learned how to play agains the Canadians and Swedes."

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
08-07-2012, 06:22 PM
  #167
Hobnobs
Pinko
 
Hobnobs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Country: Sweden
Posts: 3,000
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
The Soviets went from being about 0.500 vs Canadian amateurs and sometimes losing to the Swedes to absolutely obliterating them both almost overnight in 1963. 1963 also corresponds almost exactly to a generation change in the USSR as Firsov, Starshinov, Ragulin, Davydov, and others all joined the National Team at around the same time.

I think it's clear that there was a generational shift in Soviet hockey at the time that can't be explained away by "They finally learned how to play agains the Canadians and Swedes."
I should have said "and" not "or". Obviously there was a generational shift but there were also major change in how they played when Tarasov got the coaching job in 58.

Hobnobs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-07-2012, 06:25 PM
  #168
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 38,174
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
I should have said "and" not "or". Obviously there was a generational shift but there were also major change in how they played when Tarasov got the coaching job in 58.
Right, Tarasov wouldn't have tolerated Bobrov cherrypicking all game, waiting for his teammates to feed him; that's for sure

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
08-07-2012, 06:36 PM
  #169
Hedberg
MLD Glue Guy
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: BC, Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 16,166
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Right, Tarasov wouldn't have tolerated Bobrov cherrypicking all game, waiting for his teammates to feed him; that's for sure
Didn't Tarasov coach Bobrov for CSKA from 46-50 and 53-57?

Hedberg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-07-2012, 06:48 PM
  #170
Canadiens1958
Registered User
 
Canadiens1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 10,760
vCash: 500
Incomplete Analysis

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
The Soviets went from being about 0.500 vs Canadian amateurs and sometimes losing to the Swedes to absolutely obliterating them both almost overnight in 1963. 1963 also corresponds almost exactly to a generation change in the USSR as Firsov, Starshinov, Ragulin, Davydov, and others all joined the National Team at around the same time.

I think it's clear that there was a generational shift in Soviet hockey at the time that can't be explained away by "They finally learned how to play agains the Canadians and Swedes."
Senior amateur hockey and minor league hockey declined drastically in the 1960-65 era. A lot of the company sponsored teams died at the Senior level and minor league teams - QHL / EPHL virtually all disppeared. Quebec Aces were the only one that survived joining the AHL.Junior teams replaced the senior and minor league teams in the communities by the late 1960s / early 1970s.

Hockey Canada with Father David Bauer and the initial Team Canada concept started from scratch. As amateurs they were not in a position to compete at the start.

Will not comment about Swedish hockey.

Canadiens1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-07-2012, 07:04 PM
  #171
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 38,174
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hedberg View Post
Didn't Tarasov coach Bobrov for CSKA from 46-50 and 53-57?
Er, maybe so. I was just going by the style he developed for the National Team...

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
08-07-2012, 07:04 PM
  #172
Mike Farkas
Hockey's Future Staff
Moron!
 
Mike Farkas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: PA
Country: United States
Posts: 5,003
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I think the true star European players from the time (guys like Tumba) deserve to be recognized for being dominant against the competiton. But I agree with you that some GMs here are a little too forgiving towards the second tier European standouts of the era
As a first-timer, I feel some hesitation to dig too deeply into non-NHL players from, say, the 1960's and 70's - especially non-Soviets, because after I asked "what about dominant AHL players from the 1950's and 60's?" and it was met with resistance, it seemed that "success at a given level of competition" was highly thought of. Still unsure, personally, of competition level in the AHL vs., say, Division I in Sweden during the same timeframe...

There's two or three players, in particular, that I'm a little unsure about because they were evidently very dominant against their peers but I'm not sure they would be highly thought of...but I lack the experience, so the subtleties of the game are less evident to me as of yet...

Mike Farkas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-07-2012, 07:10 PM
  #173
VanIslander
17/07/2014 ATD RIP
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 17,956
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
There's two or three players, in particular, that I'm a little unsure about because they were evidently very dominant against their peers but I'm not sure they would be highly thought of...but I lack the experience, so the subtleties of the game are less evident to me as of yet...
1. Were they among the 2000 picks in the ATD+MLD+AAA+AA+A last year? (See links on first page)
2. Every team can easily handle a big question mark (high risk, high return) on the BENCH, as one of the EXTRAS, so if you wanna go for one of the off-the-board undrafteds and debut them in this draft, then it's safe to do so late, as an extra. Or, alternatively, wait and debut them in the AAA Draft later this fall.

VanIslander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-07-2012, 07:15 PM
  #174
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 38,174
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
1. Were they among the 2000 picks in the ATD+MLD+AAA+AA+A last year? (See links on first page)
2. Every team can easily handle a big question mark (high risk, high return) on the BENCH, as one of the EXTRAS, so if you wanna go for one of the off-the-board undrafteds and debut them in this draft, then it's safe to do so late, as an extra. Or, alternatively, wait and debut them in the AAA Draft later this fall.
I understand the logic of picking "question marks" and benching them, but I also think its a cop out. Nobody is going to bother exploring how good a spare is

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
08-07-2012, 07:17 PM
  #175
VanIslander
17/07/2014 ATD RIP
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 17,956
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I understand the logic of picking "question marks" and benching them, but I also think its a cop out. Nobody is going to bother exploring how good a spare is
Your logic on this is great for the AA or A Draft, not for the MLD, where starters should first and foremost be arguably ATD picks.

I am all for drafting deserved off the board picks where deserved. if there is a guy who never went top-2000 last year who should have gone top-1000 then hell draft and profile and defend the pick!

But to debut a new player who never played against the best of his era in the MLD it IS safe to do so as an extra skater. That is all I'm saying. It's not a 'cop out'. It's only a cop out if you think the guy truly is the best pick available but you hesitate because he is off the board. In that case, go for it and pick and defend it!

VanIslander is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:39 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.