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Derek Dorsett

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Old
08-26-2012, 05:04 AM
  #1
Nick Rash
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Derek Dorsett

Trying to gauge his value he will be an attractive asset this coming season.

Career high 12 G last season he hits fights 235 PIMS and is a fearsome forechecker as well as being a net presence on the PP and kills penalties .


Last edited by Nick Rash: 08-26-2012 at 05:49 AM.
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08-26-2012, 08:13 AM
  #2
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He is a great bottom six player for the Jackets, I don't see why we would trade him unless it's for overpayment. Boll, on the other hand....

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08-26-2012, 09:50 AM
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Most teams have a guy who is similar to Dorsett. On a contender he's a botttom line guy. Despite his energy and the positives he brings, the phrase "dime a dozen" is very suitable in this case.

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08-26-2012, 10:01 AM
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Tangradi straight up?

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08-26-2012, 10:05 AM
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Would make no sense to trade him.

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08-26-2012, 10:45 AM
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
Most teams have a guy who is similar to Dorsett. On a contender he's a botttom line guy. Despite his energy and the positives he brings, the phrase "dime a dozen" is very suitable in this case.
Dime a dozen is not a fair assessment IMO so out of the contenders mind telling me who has similar players?

Detroit has Tootoo career year offensively
Ottawa Has Neil
Los Angeles has Clifford

I cannot think of one more player to add to this group that is on the same level in what they bring.

Thats only four League wide

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08-26-2012, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
Most teams have a guy who is similar to Dorsett.
No they don't. Folks will easily assume they do because they think he's a smallish fourth-line "energy guy" who occasionally scores. To understand why the average CBJ reaction to this thread is "go to hell", you have to look at his ability to play the PK (especially since he's taken less truly stupid penalties every year - he's learning! ) and particularly his ability to play in very tough 5-on-5 defensive situations - last year he played in the same sorts of situations as guys like, oh, Brandon Sutter and Dave Bolland, and put up comparable performances. He's a high-quality defensive third-liner who'd defend his teammates from a crosseyed glance if it was necessary, he's one of our best legit "never-say-die" leaders from before Johnny-come-latelys like JMFJ and Wisniewski and Dubinsky showed up... and Vinny Prospal is teaching him how to score.

So, yeah. To heck with market value. Don't bother asking about him. He may not be a high-value player, and he'll never be counted among those players I mentioned above because he doesn't score as much as them and he's a winger instead of a center... but as he is he's been great and he's regularly improving. He's a Blue Jacket and he's here to stay.

Go ask Red Wings fans for Darren Helm. You'll get further.

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Last edited by Viqsi: 08-26-2012 at 11:28 AM. Reason: searching for defensive comparables and found 'em... and, well, yikes.
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08-26-2012, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
No they don't. Folks will easily assume they do because they think he's a smallish fourth-line "energy guy" who occasionally scores. To understand why the average CBJ reaction to this thread is "go to hell", you have to look at his ability to play the PK (especially since he's taken less truly stupid penalties every year - he's learning! ) and particularly his ability to play in very tough 5-on-5 defensive situations - last year he played in the same sorts of situations as guys like, oh, Brandon Sutter and Dave Bolland, and put up comparable performances. He's a high-quality defensive third-liner who'd defend his teammates from a crosseyed glance if it was necessary, he's one of our best legit "never-say-die" leaders from before Johnny-come-latelys like JMFJ and Wisniewski and Dubinsky showed up... and Vinny Prospal is teaching him how to score.

So, yeah. To heck with market value. Don't bother asking about him. He may not be a high-value player, and he may have a combo of abilities that several players can bring fairly routinely, but taken together he's been great. He's a Blue Jacket and he's here to stay.

Go ask Red Wings fans for Darren Helm. You'll get further.
I'm not saying he's a dime a dozen guy for CBJ, he's a valuable piece for sure. But almost every team has a 3rd/4th line energy guy who hits, kills penalties and gives his all every night while chipping in 10 goals a year. They may fight less, but other than that, other teams do have a Derek Dorsett.

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08-26-2012, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
I'm not saying he's a dime a dozen guy for CBJ, he's a valuable piece for sure. But almost every team has a 3rd/4th line energy guy who hits, kills penalties and gives his all every night while chipping in 10 goals a year. They may fight less, but other than that, other teams do have a Derek Dorsett.
Feel free to name some of the folks you think are comparable. Most of the guys I've seen mentioned as "comparable" are extremely sheltered.


Last edited by JeffMangum: 08-26-2012 at 11:50 AM. Reason: Unnecessary
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08-26-2012, 11:48 AM
  #10
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DD is not going anywhere. His leadership combined with his toughness and scoring ability mean more to the CBJ than what we could nab in return.

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08-26-2012, 11:51 AM
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Would be sweet with him and Prust on the bottom 6

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08-26-2012, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Nick Rash View Post
Dime a dozen is not a fair assessment IMO so out of the contenders mind telling me who has similar players?

Detroit has Tootoo career year offensively
Ottawa Has Neil
Los Angeles has Clifford

I cannot think of one more player to add to this group that is on the same level in what they bring.

Thats only four League wide
Only four fourth liners who can play physical, bring energy and score 10 goals? Nice try bud. I don't blame Columbus fans for not wanting to move Dorsett, but he's not some special, one of a kind player. No team would offer up much in return if he were on the market.

To put it in perspective:

Anaheim - Devante Smith-Pelley (upside significantly higher though)
Boston - Shawn Thornton (less goal scoring, but brings all other aspects)
Buffalo - Patrick Kaleta
Calgary - Tom Kostopoulos, Tim Jackman (less offense, but brings other elements)
Carolina - not a comparable player
Chicago - Bryan Bickell, Jamal Mayers
Colorado - Cody Mcleod
Columbus - Dorsett, obviously
Dallas - Steve Ott
Detroit - Jordin Tootoo
Edmonton - Ryan Jones (minus fighting, more offense), Ben Eager
Florida - not a comparable player
Los Angeles - Kyle Clifford
Minnesota - Cal Clutterbuck
Montreal - Brandon Prust
Nashville - Paul Gaustad (minus fighting)
New Jersey - no comparable, although Clarkson brings all elements in a top six role
NY Islanders - Frans Nielsen (doesn't fight, but is better at everything else), Matt Martin
NY Rangers - Brian Boyle
Ottawa - Chris Neil
Philadelphia - Wayne Simmonds, but significantly better and plays top 6
Phoenix - Raffi Torres
Pittsburgh- Aaron Asham
San Jose - No comparable
St. Louis - Scott Nichol fills a similar role, less physicality.
Tampa Bay - No comparable, but Ryan Malone plays similar in a top six role
Toronto - Mike Brown (minus fighting)
Vancouver -
Washington - Matt Hendricks, Jay Beagle
Winnipeg - Jim Slater

Obviously none of these guys are clones of Dorsett, but the all bring similar pieces to the table and are valuable 4th liners in their own right. I wouldn't expect Columbus to trade Dorsett for most of these guys, but I wouldn't expect a lot of these teams to swap their guy for Dorsett either. Every summer there seems to be one or two role players who HI seem to grab onto and see as better than they actually are. It was Steve Ott for a year or two, Raffi Torres for a year or two, Jordin Tootoo, two years ago was Clutterbuck, and this year Prust and Dorsett.

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08-26-2012, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
Only four fourth liners who can play physical, bring energy and score 10 goals? Nice try bud. I don't blame Columbus fans for not wanting to move Dorsett, but he's not some special, one of a kind player. No team would offer up much in return if he were on the market.

To put it in perspective:


NY Islanders - Frans Nielsen (doesn't fight, but is better at everything else), Matt Martin

Obviously none of these guys are clones of Dorsett, but the all bring similar pieces to the table and are valuable 4th liners in their own right. I wouldn't expect Columbus to trade Dorsett for most of these guys, but I wouldn't expect a lot of these teams to swap their guy for Dorsett either. Every summer there seems to be one or two role players who HI seem to grab onto and see as better than they actually are. It was Steve Ott for a year or two, Raffi Torres for a year or two, Jordin Tootoo, two years ago was Clutterbuck, and this year Prust and Dorsett.

To be clear...
Nielsen's had 45 pts and 47 pts the last 2 seasons, playing on the 2nd line. Isles would love it, if one Strome/Nelson bumped him to the 3rd line.

and Martin got 3rd line minutes.

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08-26-2012, 12:30 PM
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To be clear...
Nielsen's had 45 pts and 47 pts the last 2 seasons, playing on the 2nd line. Isles would love it, if one Strome/Nelson bumped him to the 3rd line.

and Martin got 3rd line minutes.
Nielsen I put down because he should be bottom six, and I think Strome will be bumped down. Martin and Dorsett are very similar, whether they played 3rd or 4th line minutes is pretty irrelevant.

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08-26-2012, 12:31 PM
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To Philly:
Derek Dorsett
3rd 2013


To CBJ:
Rinaldo
Wellwood

?

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08-26-2012, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
Only four fourth liners who can play physical, bring energy and score 10 goals? Nice try bud. I don't blame Columbus fans for not wanting to move Dorsett, but he's not some special, one of a kind player. No team would offer up much in return if he were on the market.
Asham is on the Rangers now and Boyle is a 3rd liner. He also plays a game completely different from Dorsett's.

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08-26-2012, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitsfan67 View Post
To Philly:
Derek Dorsett
3rd 2013


To CBJ:
Rinaldo
Wellwood

?

Unless that can be switched to a 2nd... :-D


In all seriousness....I dont think CBJ would be interested. We are forming a team that has similar values and chemistry. No more Nash to praise year round. I want to see what happens and who steps up.

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08-26-2012, 01:59 PM
  #18
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No reason for Columbus to trade him. He's everything you could ask for in a hockey player. Love to have him in Detroit. Just for fun:

To Detroit:
Derek Dorsett

To Columbus:
Drew Miller
3rd rounder

Jordin Tootoo & Derek Dorsett on the same line would be hell for the opposition.

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08-26-2012, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
Only four fourth liners who can play physical, bring energy and score 10 goals? Nice try bud. I don't blame Columbus fans for not wanting to move Dorsett, but he's not some special, one of a kind player. No team would offer up much in return if he were on the market.

To put it in perspective:
Would be happy to!

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
Anaheim - Devante Smith-Pelley (upside significantly higher though)
Sheltered, as befits a rookie.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
Boston - Shawn Thornton (less goal scoring, but brings all other aspects)
This is the biggest insult in the entire list and not a good way to start. Thornton did vastly worse in every single possible measurable way and a bunch of intangible ways as well. Comparing these two is like comparing Eric Christensen to Jason Spezza.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
Buffalo - Patrick Kaleta
Closest equivalent so far, but he wasn't used in the same sorts of situations. He might be there sometime.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
Calgary - Tom Kostopoulos, Tim Jackman (less offense, but brings other elements)
Neither of them faced anything near the same level of competition, and Jackman was strictly an O-zone guy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
Carolina - not a comparable player
Try Brandon Sutter, before he was traded. At least in terms of end results.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
Chicago - Bryan Bickell, Jamal Mayers
Bickell is reasonably close. So is Dave Bolland. Mayers played against pretty much nobody of quality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
Colorado - Cody Mcleod
Played mostly against fourth-liners and did crappy against them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
Dallas - Steve Ott
Potentially. Faced less difficult minutes, but performed better in them, so he could probably do similar.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
Detroit - Jordin Tootoo
Faced fairly sheltered competition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
Edmonton - Ryan Jones (minus fighting, more offense), Ben Eager
Jones also spent a bit more time in the offensive zone. Eager faced damn near nobody.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
Florida - not a comparable player
Concur, because Goc is the only forward who faced similar competition in similar situations, and he's damn near elite in that category. Dorsett ain't elite.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
Los Angeles - Kyle Clifford
Played against nobodies and losers and did not exactly do well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
Minnesota - Cal Clutterbuck
Probably a fair comparable. One of the better ones listed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
Montreal - Brandon Prust
Didn't face anything like the same level of competition, and did worse against it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
Nashville - Paul Gaustad (minus fighting)
Somewhat close, although Dorsett did better against tougher guys.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
New Jersey - no comparable, although Clarkson brings all elements in a top six role
Clarkson actually ended up pretty sheltered. Did damn well in that role, though, so he could probably take it on.

I'm seeing here a definite tendency to look strictly at "guys who play with their head on fire" - i.e. a focus on play style, rather than play results. That's the big issue at hand here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
NY Islanders - Frans Nielsen (doesn't fight, but is better at everything else), Matt Martin
Martin is a poor man's Dorsett. And Neilsen is their second-line center (also, see comments above re: Goc).

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
NY Rangers - Brian Boyle
Did better, but against less difficult competition. Still, a fairly reasonable comparison.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
Ottawa - Chris Neil
Please. He performed a similar job... in the offensive zone, against lower-tier players.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
Philadelphia - Wayne Simmonds, but significantly better and plays top 6
Simmonds actually did a comparable job (except in scoring, where he excelled) with MANY more offensive zone starts and going up against weaker players.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
Phoenix - Raffi Torres
Couldn't play that same level of defense if his life and career depended on it. Does his best work when sheltered - like he was.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
Pittsburgh- Aaron Asham
Don't be absurd.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
San Jose - No comparable
Try Dominic Moore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
St. Louis - Scott Nichol fills a similar role, less physicality.
Not hardly! Nichol faced freaking nobody.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
Tampa Bay - No comparable, but Ryan Malone plays similar in a top six role
Best comparable I can find is Tom Pyatt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
Toronto - Mike Brown (minus fighting)
Played somewhat comparable d-zone minutes, but against lesser opponents.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
Vancouver -
Nobody I can find either. Malhotra envies DD's O-zone starts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
Washington - Matt Hendricks, Jay Beagle
Both spent less time in the defensive zone, and neither faced the same kind of quality opposition, but they're the closest one can find on the Caps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
Winnipeg - Jim Slater
Almost perfect except for the fact that Slater sucked hardcore.


I give you credit - you did a better job of finding comparable players than I would have expected. Clutterbuck and Ott are definitely very good ones, and in double-checking your work I got to discover that Kaleta had more to him than I thought. That said, there were some really poor selections - particularly Nichol and Thornton.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitsfan67 View Post
To Philly:
Derek Dorsett
3rd 2013


To CBJ:
Rinaldo
Wellwood

?
Not a chance. Rinaldo is a significant downgrade, and Wellwood is not a substantive enough add to our forward depth to make it worthwhile.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruise Bros 2426 View Post
No reason for Columbus to trade him. He's everything you could ask for in a hockey player. Love to have him in Detroit. Just for fun:

To Detroit:
Derek Dorsett

To Columbus:
Drew Miller
3rd rounder

Jordin Tootoo & Derek Dorsett on the same line would be hell for the opposition.
Setting aside that this is a discussion of a trade between Columbus and Detroit this would not happen. Miller, compared to Dorsett, is extremely sheltered, so it doesn't exactly surprise me that he scores more.

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08-26-2012, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
Would be happy to!



Sheltered, as befits a rookie.



This is the biggest insult in the entire list and not a good way to start. Thornton did vastly worse in every single possible measurable way and a bunch of intangible ways as well. Comparing these two is like comparing Eric Christensen to Jason Spezza.



Closest equivalent so far, but he wasn't used in the same sorts of situations. He might be there sometime.



Neither of them faced anything near the same level of competition, and Jackman was strictly an O-zone guy.



Try Brandon Sutter, before he was traded. At least in terms of end results.



Bickell is reasonably close. So is Dave Bolland. Mayers played against pretty much nobody of quality.



Played mostly against fourth-liners and did crappy against them.



Potentially. Faced less difficult minutes, but performed better in them, so he could probably do similar.



Faced fairly sheltered competition.



Jones also spent a bit more time in the offensive zone. Eager faced damn near nobody.



Concur, because Goc is the only forward who faced similar competition in similar situations, and he's damn near elite in that category. Dorsett ain't elite.



Played against nobodies and losers and did not exactly do well.



Probably a fair comparable. One of the better ones listed.



Didn't face anything like the same level of competition, and did worse against it.



Somewhat close, although Dorsett did better against tougher guys.



Clarkson actually ended up pretty sheltered. Did damn well in that role, though, so he could probably take it on.

I'm seeing here a definite tendency to look strictly at "guys who play with their head on fire" - i.e. a focus on play style, rather than play results. That's the big issue at hand here.



Martin is a poor man's Dorsett. And Neilsen is their second-line center (also, see comments above re: Goc).



Did better, but against less difficult competition. Still, a fairly reasonable comparison.



Please. He performed a similar job... in the offensive zone, against lower-tier players.



Simmonds actually did a comparable job (except in scoring, where he excelled) with MANY more offensive zone starts and going up against weaker players.



Couldn't play that same level of defense if his life and career depended on it. Does his best work when sheltered - like he was.



Don't be absurd.



Try Dominic Moore.



Not hardly! Nichol faced freaking nobody.



Best comparable I can find is Tom Pyatt.



Played somewhat comparable d-zone minutes, but against lesser opponents.



Nobody I can find either. Malhotra envies DD's O-zone starts.



Both spent less time in the defensive zone, and neither faced the same kind of quality opposition, but they're the closest one can find on the Caps.



Almost perfect except for the fact that Slater sucked hardcore.


I give you credit - you did a better job of finding comparable players than I would have expected. Clutterbuck and Ott are definitely very good ones, and in double-checking your work I got to discover that Kaleta had more to him than I thought. That said, there were some really poor selections - particularly Nichol and Thornton.




Not a chance. Rinaldo is a significant downgrade, and Wellwood is not a substantive enough add to our forward depth to make it worthwhile.



Setting aside that this is a discussion of a trade between Columbus and Detroit this would not happen. Miller, compared to Dorsett, is extremely sheltered, so it doesn't exactly surprise me that he scores more.
My point still stands in that most teams have a guy like Dorsett already. I'm not splitting hairs as to which ones are better or worse than him, I do think he's a good player to have. But he's not the kind of player that GM's will give the moon to get either.

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08-26-2012, 03:51 PM
  #21
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What would it take from the Oilers to land him?

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08-26-2012, 04:00 PM
  #22
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Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
My point still stands in that most teams have a guy like Dorsett already. I'm not splitting hairs as to which ones are better or worse than him, I do think he's a good player to have. But he's not the kind of player that GM's will give the moon to get either.
Nobody said anything about the moon but to say he is a dime a dozen is false Again while that list i posted originally helped with your point the bottom line is while some of those players do some of the things DD does agin i find Tootoo Neil and Clifford as the only one on that list that are truly comparible

Other than Simmonds who was one of two that had more Ice time Than DD or how about Columbus scored 47 PP goals and DD was on the ice for 33 of them how does that value transfer over


i can make a solid argument against every single one expect the one of mentioned and pokes so much sunlight in them youll appoligize. Bottom line is no he isent a generational player or anything of the sort RARE yes

Clutterbuck another personal Favorite of mine but he misses the cut lack of fighting abilty so not a comparible Same with Kaleta

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08-26-2012, 04:05 PM
  #23
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What would it take from the Oilers to land him?
Something around Jones+. Jones + Omark or Jones + MPS and we add a pick.

Dorsett is not someone I'd give up unless it's an overpayment. I love to watch that kid play. He's also a heck of a role model and leader for our team, and a great guy off the ice. He's my son's favorite player, been super nice to him since he came in the league.

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08-26-2012, 04:11 PM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
Only four fourth liners who can play physical, bring energy and score 10 goals? Nice try bud. I don't blame Columbus fans for not wanting to move Dorsett, but he's not some special, one of a kind player. No team would offer up much in return if he were on the market.

To put it in perspective:

Anaheim - Devante Smith-Pelley (upside significantly higher though)
Boston - Shawn Thornton (less goal scoring, but brings all other aspects)
Buffalo - Patrick Kaleta
Calgary - Tom Kostopoulos, Tim Jackman (less offense, but brings other elements)
Carolina - not a comparable player
Chicago - Bryan Bickell, Jamal Mayers
Colorado - Cody Mcleod
Columbus - Dorsett, obviously
Dallas - Steve Ott
Detroit - Jordin Tootoo
Edmonton - Ryan Jones (minus fighting, more offense), Ben Eager
Florida - not a comparable player
Los Angeles - Kyle Clifford
Minnesota - Cal Clutterbuck
Montreal - Brandon Prust
Nashville - Paul Gaustad (minus fighting)
New Jersey - no comparable, although Clarkson brings all elements in a top six role
NY Islanders - Frans Nielsen (doesn't fight, but is better at everything else), Matt Martin
NY Rangers - Brian Boyle
Ottawa - Chris Neil
Philadelphia - Wayne Simmonds, but significantly better and plays top 6
Phoenix - Raffi Torres
Pittsburgh- Aaron Asham
San Jose - No comparable
St. Louis - Scott Nichol fills a similar role, less physicality.
Tampa Bay - No comparable, but Ryan Malone plays similar in a top six role
Toronto - Mike Brown (minus fighting)
Vancouver -
Washington - Matt Hendricks, Jay Beagle
Winnipeg - Jim Slater

Obviously none of these guys are clones of Dorsett, but the all bring similar pieces to the table and are valuable 4th liners in their own right. I wouldn't expect Columbus to trade Dorsett for most of these guys, but I wouldn't expect a lot of these teams to swap their guy for Dorsett either. Every summer there seems to be one or two role players who HI seem to grab onto and see as better than they actually are. It was Steve Ott for a year or two, Raffi Torres for a year or two, Jordin Tootoo, two years ago was Clutterbuck, and this year Prust and Dorsett.

without getting to involved or giving out any more mind punches how many on your list has or woud contemplate fighting John Scott?

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08-26-2012, 04:14 PM
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Bryanbryoil
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Originally Posted by v3rs3 View Post
Something around Jones+. Jones + Omark or Jones + MPS and we add a pick.

Dorsett is not someone I'd give up unless it's an overpayment. I love to watch that kid play. He's also a heck of a role model and leader for our team, and a great guy off the ice. He's my son's favorite player, been super nice to him since he came in the league.
I'd consider Jones + Omark, I like Jones and he's a great team guy, but we could stand to get tougher and not have Hall fighting Dorsett again Jones + Paajarvi is way too much.

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