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red wings needs defense and forwards

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Old
08-06-2012, 06:40 PM
  #126
Viqsi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garry1221 View Post
You're right. The chicken little syndrome has blown up with lidstrom's retirement. Early on, I admit, I even had it.

Quincey only replaces Stuart as a warm body. They don't play the same style. We've got plenty of PMDs. We need at least 1 shutdown stay at home Dman. Quincey and Ericsson both are borderline to decent 2nd pair guys on this team. I don't care what Quincey did elsewhere. E has to prove he can maintain or continue to develop into a solid top 4. Kindl's another to me, that needs to show me a lot before I'm comfortable with him as a regular in the line up.

You're right. We're solidly in the middle of the pack right now. I really hope Smith comes in tears it up. With no other changes, I see Smith anchoring 2nd pair before the end of the year, if not sooner. Currently he's the game changer. Does he rise to what on paper, is some challenge? Hope so
I think part of why folks seem to assume Detroit is doomed post-Lidstrom is because they think he covered for what look like several weaknesses over there.

That and this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turkish View Post
We're looking at the distinct possibility of having 2 of Bertuzzi, Cleary and Samuelsson in the top 6 given Babcock's love for those 3- that's not screaming quality to me.
Right now it looks like the only guys that can truly carry the team are Datsyuk and Zetterberg. That's nothing to sneer at, to be certain... but there doesn't seem to be any real go-to blueliners there yet. (Although Kronwall may step up to that role, and who knows where Smith ends up ultimately...)

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08-06-2012, 06:59 PM
  #127
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Anthony Stewart for a conditional 7th.

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Old
08-06-2012, 07:50 PM
  #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turkish View Post
We're looking at the distinct possibility of having 2 of Bertuzzi, Cleary and Samuelsson in the top 6 given Babcock's love for those 3- that's not screaming quality to me.
The post you quoted said nothing about quality. The unfortunate fact is as we stand now, we've got too many forwards. Normally, that would be good, but as you know, we've got a plethora of bottom 6, plenty of middle six and not enough true top six quality.

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08-06-2012, 11:34 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by Turkish View Post
We're looking at the distinct possibility of having 2 of Bertuzzi, Cleary and Samuelsson in the top 6 given Babcock's love for those 3- that's not screaming quality to me.
So you didn't watch Nyquist? K.

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08-07-2012, 12:48 AM
  #130
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Originally Posted by TOML View Post
Time to put that 'superior drafting and player development' to good use.


TOML
what superior drafting, they got very lucky over a decade ago with Datsyuk and Zetterberg

haven't promoted anyone in the last 5 years, future looks bleek in motown

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08-07-2012, 12:56 AM
  #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ginovegas View Post
what superior drafting, they got very lucky over a decade ago with Datsyuk and Zetterberg

haven't promoted anyone in the last 5 years, future looks bleek in motown
Lucky

Yeah 20 years of living in the sunshine, they clearly just have more luck than everyone else. I am not going to pretend luck isn't a part of success, but so is preparation and having a plan. The Wings have those whether you like it or not. They promoted Howard in the last four years and Helm. They are about to promote Smith and Nyquist and the system is extremely deep. Believe what you want I guess just prepare for disappointment if you think they have nobody coming and don't have a plan.

Ken Holland, Jim Nill and Hakan Andersson might be lucky, but their track records also state they are among the very best at their job. Honestly name a single successful person that doesn't have some luck.

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Old
08-07-2012, 01:00 AM
  #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ginovegas View Post
what superior drafting, they got very lucky over a decade ago with Datsyuk and Zetterberg

haven't promoted anyone in the last 5 years, future looks bleek in motown
Got lucky with Lidstrom in the third too.

And Fedorov... (3rd)
And Franzen... (3rd)
And Howard (Late 2nd)
And Helm (6th?)
And Filppula (3rd)
And Ericsson (Final pick of his draft... As a Center...)

You want me to keep going?

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08-07-2012, 01:04 AM
  #133
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I remember when Bob MacKenzie said on the TSN panel that he thought Ericsson would be a perennial Norris candidate, possibly even winning one or two along the way... That was during the playoffs several years ago... I always thought the guy could be more than just a good top 4 D-man, I thought he might have the propensity to become a serious #1, seeing as how he received tutelage from Lids and several other great coaches and players. I thought that would soften the blow of losing Lidstrom in the future. Doesn't look to be so anymore.

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08-07-2012, 01:08 AM
  #134
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Originally Posted by Philly85 View Post
I remember when Bob MacKenzie said on the TSN panel that he thought Ericsson would be a perennial Norris candidate, possibly even winning one or two along the way... That was during the playoffs several years ago... I always thought the guy could be more than just a good top 4 D-man, I thought he might have the propensity to become a serious #1, seeing as how he received tutelage from Lids and several other great coaches and players. I thought that would soften the blow of losing Lidstrom in the future. Doesn't look to be so anymore.
Meh, I think his biggest problem is he's lazy. People make stupid predictions all the time though, I remember back when Scotty Bowman said Hjalmarsson reminded him of Lidstrom. Scotty's a legend, but I sure do hope he downed a few beers before he said that.

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08-07-2012, 08:01 AM
  #135
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Yeah, Detroit looks to be going downhill. I'm surprised they haven't been more agressive in free agency this year.

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08-07-2012, 10:38 AM
  #136
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Originally Posted by tony d View Post
Yeah, Detroit looks to be going downhill. I'm surprised they haven't been more agressive in free agency this year.
They were, but when there's about 20 fishermen fishing for two fish, there's not much you can do.

Build from within. If one of two down years before the prospects start flooding in is "going downhill" then yeah... OK.

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08-07-2012, 12:06 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by Wingsfan2965 View Post
THN's Top 75:

1. Evgeni Kuznetsov - Washington Capitals
2. Mikael Granlund - Minnesota Wild
3. Jonathan Huberdeau - Florida Panthers
4. Dougie Hamilton - Boston Bruins
5. Mika Zibanejad - Ottawa Senators
6. Vladimir Tarasenko - St. Louis Blues
7. Mark Scheifele - Winnipeg Jets
8. Jacob Markstrom - Florida Panthers
9. Ryan Strome - New York Islanders
10. Brandon Gormley - Phoenix Coyotes
11. Ryan Ellis - Nashville Predators
12. Jonas Brodin - Minnesota Wild
13. Zack Kassian - Vancouver Canucks
14. Charlie Coyle - Minnesota Wild
15. Sven Baertschi - Calgary Flames
16. Brendan Smith - Detroit Red Wings
17. Tim Erixon - Columbus Blue Jackets
18. Joe Colborne - Toronto Maple Leafs
19. Nick Bjugstad - Florida Panthers
20. Robin Lehner - Ottawa Senators
21. Justin Schultz - Edmonton Oilers
22. Oscar Klefbom - Edmonton Oilers
23. Chris Kreider - New York Rangers
24. Joel Armia - Buffalo Sabres
25. Brandon Saad - Chicago Blackhawks
26. Ryan Murphy - Carolina Hurricanes
27. Joe Morrow - Pittsburgh Penguins
28. Jaden Schwartz - St. Louis Blues
29. J.T. Miller - New York Rangers
30. Jordan Caron - Boston Bruins
31. Cody Eakin - Washington Capitals
32. Calle Jarnkrok - Detroit Red Wings
33. Nathan Beaulieu - Montreal Canadiens
34. Gustav Nyquist - Detroit Red Wings
35. Matt Hackett - Minnesota Wild
36. Rickard Rakell - Anaheim Ducks
37. Carter Ashton - Toronto Maple Leafs
38. Johan Larsson - Minnesota Wild
39. Tyler Toffoli - Los Angeles Kings
40. Kyle Palmieri - Anaheim Ducks
41. Jack Campbell - Dallas Stars
42. Vladimir Namestnikov - Tampa Bay Lightning
43. Simon Despres - Pittsburgh Penguins
44. Ty Rattie - St. Louis Blues
45. Mark Stone - Ottawa Senators
46. Beau Bennett - Pittsburgh Penguins
47. Louis Leblanc - Montreal Canadiens
48. David Savard - Columbus Blue Jackets
49. Calvin de Haan - New York Islanders
50. Jarred Tinordi - Montreal Canadiens
51. Duncan Siemens - Colorado Avalanche
52. Mark McNeill - Chicago Blackhawks
53. Zac Dalpe - Carolina Hurricanes
54. Alexander Khokhlachev - Boston Bruins
55. Patrice Cormier - Winnipeg Jets
56. Jeremy Morin - Chicago Blackhawks
57. Tomas Tatar - Detroit Red Wings
58. Phillip Danault - Chicago Blackhawks
59. Jamie Oleksiak - Dallas Stars
60. Nicklas Jensen - Vancouver Canucks
61. Jon Merrill - New Jersey Devils
62. Boone Jenner - Columbus Blue Jackets
63. Alex Petrovic - Florida Panthers
64. Derek Forbort - Los Angeles Kings
65. Joey Hishon - Colorado Avalanche
66. Brock Nelson - New York Islanders
67. Jakob Silfverberg - Ottawa Senators
68. Tyson Barrie - Colorado Avalanche
69. Brett Bulmer - Minnesota Wild
70. Marcus Foligno - Buffalo Sabres
71. Max Goncharov - Phoenix Coyotes
72. Stefan Noesen - Ottawa Senators
73. Stanislav Galiev - Washington Capitals
74. Jake Allen - St. Louis Blues
75. Braden Holtby - Washington
Nice to see all the love for the Wild prospects; haven't seen many lists that actually have guys like Bulmer and Larsson which is ironic since some scouts see them as potential top six forwards.

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Old
08-07-2012, 12:34 PM
  #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turkish View Post
We're looking at the distinct possibility of having 2 of Bertuzzi, Cleary and Samuelsson in the top 6 given Babcock's love for those 3- that's not screaming quality to me.
When you have too much quantity and none of them have much quality, you're not going to package any of them up and get quality.

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Old
08-07-2012, 01:06 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by NM Squirts View Post
Nice to see all the love for the Wild prospects; haven't seen many lists that actually have guys like Bulmer and Larsson which is ironic since some scouts see them as potential top six forwards.
Kindl for Brodin?

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Old
08-07-2012, 01:27 PM
  #140
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what superior drafting, they got very lucky over a decade ago with Datsyuk and Zetterberg

haven't promoted anyone in the last 5 years, future looks bleek in motown
And they got horrendously unlucky on their D over the years. Wouldn't that D in the early 2000s have looked way better with Vladimir Konstantinov? Or the D be much better now with an in his prime, or just exiting it, Jiri Fischer paired with Kronwall?

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08-07-2012, 01:41 PM
  #141
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^ that's true Jiri Fischer was a stud and was on his way to become the face of the Detroit Red Wings. He would have been their #1 and captain after Lidstrom retired.

Too bad he had health issues that ended his promising career.

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08-07-2012, 01:51 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by zetterberg40 View Post
When you have too much quantity and none of them have much quality, you're not going to package any of them up and get quality.
I didn't say anybody was lining up to get our microwaved leftovers, just pointing out that we do need top 6 help or Holland wouldn't have been looking at Parise or Nash this offseason. I don't think many contending teams would want to trot out Cleary, Bert or Sammy in their top 6- maybe as short-term spot duty when better players get injured, but not as consistent guys in the top 6.

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08-07-2012, 01:54 PM
  #143
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^ that's true Jiri Fischer was a stud and was on his way to become the face of the Detroit Red Wings. He would have been their #1 and captain after Lidstrom retired.

Too bad he had health issues that ended his promising career.
Watching the game where he collapsed is still one of the worst live events I've seen, still scary to think about. He was developing into a good player, but you are pitching the absolute best case scenario for Fischer. IMO, he would have topped out as a more offensive Stuart, which would have been great in its own right.

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08-07-2012, 01:55 PM
  #144
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Originally Posted by Turkish View Post
I didn't say anybody was lining up to get our microwaved leftovers, just pointing out that we do need top 6 help or Holland wouldn't have been looking at Parise or Nash this offseason. I don't think many contending teams would want to trot out Cleary, Bert or Sammy in their top 6- maybe as short-term spot duty when better players get injured, but not as consistent guys in the top 6.
Pittsburgh will likely have two of Cooke/Kennedy/Dupuis in their top six and all the "Experts" will still talk about how they're the runaway favorite for the Cup.

Detroit's top six will likely end up:

Franzen - Datsyuk - Nyquist
Filppula - Zetterberg - Samuelsson

Wouldn't be all that hard for Nyquist to succeed on Datsyuk's wing as well, or better, than Bertuzzi did, and Samuelsson had a better PPG average last year than Hudler, and I doubt his linemates were as good as Hudler had with Zetterberg and Filppula.

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08-07-2012, 02:44 PM
  #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wingsfan2965 View Post
Got lucky with Lidstrom in the third too.

And Fedorov... (3rd)
And Franzen... (3rd)
And Howard (Late 2nd)
And Helm (6th?)
And Filppula (3rd)
And Ericsson (Final pick of his draft... As a Center...)

You want me to keep going?
Fedorov and Lidstrom are the only stars I see in there, and both were from (at the time) underscouted countries. Everyone else has since caught on, and every Red Wing "miracle pick" since has made it to the level of "quality depth" at best.

That's not bad by any means - indeed, it's very good - but the degree to which that can Save The Franchise is a bit overstated.

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08-07-2012, 02:59 PM
  #146
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I'll trade you Peter Regin for a signed Lidstrom stick.

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08-07-2012, 03:00 PM
  #147
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I know that, the point is the Wings have a lot of bullets in the chamber at both D and forward with considerable upside. I don't think even half will hit, but with the amount they have they should be fine.
thread ender right thurr.

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08-07-2012, 03:15 PM
  #148
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I'll trade you Peter Regin for a signed Lidstrom stick.
We will trade you Todd Bertuzzi for a signed Karlsson stick.

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Old
08-07-2012, 03:25 PM
  #149
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Originally Posted by Wingsfan2965 View Post
My observation on Detroit's defense is that people are blowing things way out of proportion.

Kronwall, as I've already said, is a good top pairing guy IMO. Is he an elite, number one defender? No. But then, there aren't many of those.

Replacing Lidstrom isn't gonna happen. We could've gotten Weber, and it STILL wouldn't have been "Replacing Lidstrom". Anybody who has that expectation was going to be disappointed no matter what.

Replacing Stuart? People fail to realize he was already replaced. Quincey was clearly acquired because Holland knew Stuart was on his way out. Is it a downgrade? Some people seem to think so, I don't think it's all that different. Quincey is less physical and more offensive. Both give me headaches when I would watch them **** it up, so it's not all that different.

Ericsson is a guy that I've hated for awhile, but after coming back from his wrist injury, he stepped his game up a lot. If he doesn't take a step back again, I think he'll fit in as a top four guy.

Realistically, Kronwall/White/Ericsson/Quincey isn't amongst the league's best, but it's not amongst the league's worst either, and honestly one of those guys is just keeping Smith's seat warm in the top four.

It's blown out of proportion IMO. You see a legend walk away and the typical response is to run around like a chicken with your head cut off. Obviously, you've taken a hit, but it's still not all that bad.
In a vacuum, yes, that top 4 is middle of the pack. However, you have to consider that the goaltending is very used to having Lidstrom or Stuart on the ice all of the time, and having that big of a drop will probably have long ranging effects on the goaltending. It isn't so much the defensive play that I'd be worried about if I were a Wings fan, but the ability of the goaltending to adjust to much lower defensive quality.

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08-07-2012, 03:26 PM
  #150
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In a vacuum, yes, that top 4 is middle of the pack. However, you have to consider that the goaltending is very used to having Lidstrom or Stuart on the ice all of the time, and having that big of a drop will probably have long ranging effects on the goaltending. It isn't so much the defensive play that I'd be worried about if I were a Wings fan, but the ability of the goaltending to adjust to much lower defensive quality.
Howard being used to Stuart out of position will probably be a good thing.

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