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2012 Off Season Thread - Part dreiundzwanzig: Boring Summer edition

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08-07-2012, 11:36 AM
  #126
Riptide
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I would not call Shane O'Brien a bottom pairing defenceman look at his stats last year with Colorado it's quite impressive for a shutdown defenceman I don't want Bortuzzo or Strait as a bottom pairing defenceman in the NHL yet
Watched a lot of Van games a few years ago when he played there, and was never all that impressed with him. But I haven't seen many Avs games so maybe he's improved a lot.

I still wouldn't want to trade Martin for him though. Trade Niskanen for him. We still have Martin who's a PMD, and Despres/Morrow who could be called up if we have injuries and a PMD is needed.

Martin is probably the only D on our roster who's defensive in nature and can play a shutdown role - he just doesn't have the size or the physicality to clear the crease. But if we can get him someone like that to partner with him, then I think that pair could be deadly. Martin the PMD who can skate the puck, and his partner who has size, and is physical to hit and clear the crease.

I don't think Orpik can do it, and I don't want to see Letang focused on it. I love the idea of being able to send a pair over the boards whenever the other team puts it's stars on the ice.

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08-07-2012, 11:39 AM
  #127
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Boy are we getting desperate when we're talking about bringing in Shane O'Brien. His skillset is borderline NHL-calibre and his work ethic is historically quite dubious. Yes, he has NHL experience, but I'd still much rather give some of our NHL-ready dmen a chance before picking up O'Brien.

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08-07-2012, 11:45 AM
  #128
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Huge Engo supporter. IMO he can play the tough, defensive partner of a 2nd pairing with some pretty good PK ability. Beside his toughness and willingness to block a shot with his face, he has the sense to know his limitations and has become a pretty good skater. That sense reminds me of Bobby Boughner or a Ken Daneyko.

I actually like a defense thats built...

Orpik- Letang
Engo- Martin
Despres- Nisky
or
Martin- Letang
Orpik- Niksy
Gonchar- Engo
If Engomeister could develop into a d-man that can handle top-4 minutes I'm all for this post
Engo is 30. He pretty much is what he is. Even if he has some upside left, how long is it going to take to find it, vs how long he has left? Then look at that vs playing Bortuzzo or Strait, and their upside and their age. I love what Engo brings, but at his age and the fact that he has little upside left (he is what he is), and has maybe 5 years left? I'd be all for sitting him to give Strait or Bort icetime.

As for the 2nd lineup, where's Strait, Bort or Despres? We can't keep these kids out of the lineup. We have 3 or 4 NHL ready D in Strait, Bort (neither of whom can clear waivers), Despres and possibly Dumoulin (at least according to what TSN was saying at the draft). We need to get these kids icetime ASAP. Because behind them is Morrow, and then another year or two back is Pouliout, Maatta plus Ruopp (not sure where exactly he falls), and whomever else is in the pipeline.

If we don't get these kids playing in the NHL then in the case of Strait or Bort we're going to lose them for nothing. Now it's possible that one of them isn't ready (doubt it), in which case try and send them through waivers, but I doubt that either would clear unless they had an absolutely awful camp.

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08-07-2012, 11:50 AM
  #129
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Originally Posted by LetangInTheSO View Post
Boy are we getting desperate when we're talking about bringing in Shane O'Brien. His skillset is borderline NHL-calibre and his work ethic is historically quite dubious. Yes, he has NHL experience, but I'd still much rather give some of our NHL-ready dmen a chance before picking up O'Brien.
I always love comments like this. Contract aside I would take him over Engo almost every day of the week. IF he could play a shutdown role like whomever brought his name up was alluding to, then I'd take him 7 days a week. He's at least a solid 3rd pairing guy, and I never saw issues with his effort.

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08-07-2012, 11:55 AM
  #130
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Taking into consideration team needs on defense - a bigger/physical tough defender... I'd say he's more of a need than Strait or Bort. It would suck to lose those 2 for free,but I can't believe that Engo isn't the best option at #6.
My take is that you rotate all 3 of Strait Bort and Engel in and out to give Strait and Bort a chance to prove themselves. You do this for the first 30-40 games. Whichever of the 2 clearly proves they are better gets the spot as we head down the stretch. Engel is still your number 6 guy unless the other 2 beat him out.

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08-07-2012, 12:00 PM
  #131
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My take is that you rotate all 3 of Strait Bort and Engel in and out to give Strait and Bort a chance to prove themselves. You do this for the first 30-40 games. Whichever of the 2 clearly proves they are better gets the spot as we head down the stretch. Engel is still your number 6 guy unless the other 2 beat him out.
Agreed.

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08-07-2012, 12:17 PM
  #132
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Engo is 30. He pretty much is what he is. Even if he has some upside left, how long is it going to take to find it, vs how long he has left? Then look at that vs playing Bortuzzo or Strait, and their upside and their age. I love what Engo brings, but at his age and the fact that he has little upside left (he is what he is), and has maybe 5 years left? I'd be all for sitting him to give Strait or Bort icetime.

As for the 2nd lineup, where's Strait, Bort or Despres? We can't keep these kids out of the lineup. We have 3 or 4 NHL ready D in Strait, Bort (neither of whom can clear waivers), Despres and possibly Dumoulin (at least according to what TSN was saying at the draft). We need to get these kids icetime ASAP. Because behind them is Morrow, and then another year or two back is Pouliout, Maatta plus Ruopp (not sure where exactly he falls), and whomever else is in the pipeline.

If we don't get these kids playing in the NHL then in the case of Strait or Bort we're going to lose them for nothing. Now it's possible that one of them isn't ready (doubt it), in which case try and send them through waivers, but I doubt that either would clear unless they had an absolutely awful camp.
I wouldn't even count Dumoulin in with the others. He'll be headed straight for WBS as soon as their camp opens. They like to get their rookies settled in as early as possible. You might see him later on in the season if we have a lot of injuries.

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08-07-2012, 12:32 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
My take is that you rotate all 3 of Strait Bort and Engel in and out to give Strait and Bort a chance to prove themselves. You do this for the first 30-40 games. Whichever of the 2 clearly proves they are better gets the spot as we head down the stretch. Engel is still your number 6 guy unless the other 2 beat him out.
Competition isn't a bad thing. I'm not against it. Engo thrives off of it as he put Lovejoy to shame last season.

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08-07-2012, 12:43 PM
  #134
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Competition isn't a bad thing. I'm not against it. Engo thrives off of it as he put Lovejoy to shame last season.
I watched both of them when they were in WBS. I always thought Lovejoy was a better player than Engelland but I've got to hand it to Engelland. He improved and Lovejoy didn't. A far as future improvement though, their ages are against them.

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08-07-2012, 01:27 PM
  #135
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Engo has earned the right to be automatically penciled in at the beginning of the season. Even as the 5th man.

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08-07-2012, 01:34 PM
  #136
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Engo has earned the right to be automatically penciled in at the beginning of the season. Even as the 5th man.
Honestly, this. The improvements he made in his game over the past season are amazing. He's proven he deserves to be a NHL regular.

IMO, Bortuzzo and Strait can battle it out for the 6th spot, but Engelland's play this past season should have cemented him a spot in the everyday lineup.

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08-07-2012, 01:41 PM
  #137
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Honestly, this. The improvements he made in his game over the past season are amazing. He's proven he deserves to be a NHL regular.

IMO, Bortuzzo and Strait can battle it out for the 6th spot, but Engelland's play this past season should have cemented him a spot in the everyday lineup.
Okay so what if Bortuzzo or Strait prove they are better in camp? Do you sit them because Engelland proved it? What I'm suggesting is you let all 3 battle it out and in the early going, let Engel sit a few games to give Strait and Bort a try (assuming they don't look like dog****). You know what you have in Engelland. He's a great, phyiscal bottom pairing dman. Bortuzzo and Strait could be bottom pairing guys, they could be number 7 d. or they, Bortuzzo specifically, could potentially be top 4 guys. Why not see what we have here?

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08-07-2012, 01:44 PM
  #138
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Engo has earned the right to be automatically penciled in at the beginning of the season. Even as the 5th man.
You have to earn your spot every year, esp if you're a bottom pairing guy. I agree you have him penciled in but pencil is made to be erased. Definetly not cemented in the lineup!

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08-07-2012, 01:47 PM
  #139
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Okay so what if Bortuzzo or Strait prove they are better in camp? Do you sit them because Engelland proved it? What I'm suggesting is you let all 3 battle it out and in the early going, let Engel sit a few games to give Strait and Bort a try (assuming they don't look like dog****). You know what you have in Engelland. He's a great, phyiscal bottom pairing dman. Bortuzzo and Strait could be bottom pairing guys, they could be number 7 d. or they, Bortuzzo specifically, could potentially be top 4 guys. Why not see what we have here?
What if Bortuzzo and Strait play better than Orpik in camp? Or better than Martin? Niskanen? What more does Engelland have to do to be considered a NHL player, and not constantly have to be perfect in training camp in order not to be bumped by a rookie who has a strong camp?

There's a spot open (two, if Michalek's spot isn't filled by a veteran FA, but I'm assuming everyone's gifting that one to Despres) for a rookie to land an everyday spot, and then also a spot as the 7th defenseman. If Bortuzzo and Strait impress in camp, they can battle it out for the 6th spot, kind of like Engelland and Lovejoy did a couple of seasons back.

Why are people so quick to want to insert a bunch of rookies in the lineup over a guy who has proven he can handle 16 minutes a night and be a positive contributor? Engelland's not a liability. Yet people treat him like he just had a season as bad as Lovejoy's, and can't wait to insert two rookies ahead of him.

Edit: Just noticed my numbers are off. There are two spots open, total, not three like I alluded to above. I'd forgotten Niskanen "moving up" to replace Michalek in the top four.

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08-07-2012, 01:57 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by Sidney the Kidney View Post
What if Bortuzzo and Strait play better than Orpik in camp? Or better than Martin? Niskanen? What more does Engelland have to do to be considered a NHL player, and not constantly have to be perfect in training camp in order not to be bumped by a rookie who has a strong camp?

There's a spot open (two, if Michalek's spot isn't filled by a veteran FA, but I'm assuming everyone's gifting that one to Despres) for a rookie to land an everyday spot, and then also a spot as the 7th defenseman. If Bortuzzo and Strait impress in camp, they can battle it out for the 6th spot, kind of like Engelland and Lovejoy did a couple of seasons back.

Why are people so quick to want to insert a bunch of rookies in the lineup over a guy who has proven he can handle 16 minutes a night and be a positive contributor? Engelland's not a liability. Yet people treat him like he just had a season as bad as Lovejoy's, and can't wait to insert two rookies ahead of him.

Edit: Just noticed my numbers are off. There are two spots open, total, not three like I alluded to above. I'd forgotten Niskanen "moving up" to replace Michalek in the top four.
Here's the difference: Engelland is a 3rd pairing dman. He is a proven 3rd pairing guy, but that's all he is and is all he will ever likely be. Strait and Bortuzzo are also 3rd pairing dmen. They are waiver eligible and we need to see what we have in them this season or lose them for nothing.

I am not suggesting we sit Engelland indefinitely or give his role to these guys who haven't proven anything consistently yet. But I am suggesting that we give these guys an opportunity to play real NHL minutes to see what they can do. Engelland is a guy we can sit in the press box for a few games and not miss that much (outside of his physicality and fighting he is a good bottom pairing defender which is what Strait and Bort will be in the near term). I'd also be willing to sit Nisky a game or 2 for these guys as well.

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08-07-2012, 01:59 PM
  #141
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You have to earn your spot every year, esp if you're a bottom pairing guy. I agree you have him penciled in but pencil is made to be erased. Definetly not cemented in the lineup!
Absolutely. That is my point as well.

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08-07-2012, 02:00 PM
  #142
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Watch them offer sheet Subban
Wouldn't surprise me at all.


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Not against this ONE bit. He would be great on our powerplay and we can limit his time. More of a deadline deal if Ottawa struggles.
Yah would not want Gonch for the full season. If he's healthy and available, deadline would be OK only if we're struggling on the PP (I don't think we will be by that point). There's more than enough puck moving skill on this team to make it work with Sid, Neal and Geno out there causing D headaches.


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Strait and Bortuzzo represent the future of the waiver wire.
No way we waive those guys. At the very worst we could trade them for draft picks (rounds 5-7) as they're NHL ready and inexpensive. Only way one of them gets waived is with a bad camp IMO.

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08-07-2012, 02:07 PM
  #143
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Wouldn't surprise me at all.




Yah would not want Gonch for the full season. If he's healthy and available, deadline would be OK only if we're struggling on the PP (I don't think we will be by that point). There's more than enough puck moving skill on this team to make it work with Sid, Neal and Geno out there causing D headaches.




No way we waive those guys. At the very worst we could trade them for draft picks (rounds 5-7) as they're NHL ready and inexpensive. Only way one of them gets waived is with a bad camp IMO.
If they didn't think they had NHL potential they wouldn't have qualified them.

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08-07-2012, 02:47 PM
  #144
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I always love comments like this. Contract aside I would take him over Engo almost every day of the week. IF he could play a shutdown role like whomever brought his name up was alluding to, then I'd take him 7 days a week. He's at least a solid 3rd pairing guy, and I never saw issues with his effort.
I assume you didn't follow him while he was in Vancouver. He was frequently in AV's doghouse. He returned from the Olympic break out of shape. The Canucks finally just decided to cast him off.

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08-07-2012, 02:48 PM
  #145
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What if Bortuzzo and Strait play better than Orpik in camp? Or better than Martin? Niskanen? What more does Engelland have to do to be considered a NHL player, and not constantly have to be perfect in training camp in order not to be bumped by a rookie who has a strong camp?
...
Why are people so quick to want to insert a bunch of rookies in the lineup over a guy who has proven he can handle 16 minutes a night and be a positive contributor? Engelland's not a liability. Yet people treat him like he just had a season as bad as Lovejoy's, and can't wait to insert two rookies ahead of him.
Nothing. But that's the game when you're a 3rd pairing guy. He has little upside due to his age. If the rookies are almost just as good (say Engo is 8/10 and they're 6.5/10), then they get the advantage due to their age and potential. The only way we'll see what these two (specifically Strait and Bort) will develop into is with NHL icetime - especially now that they're both waiver eligible. Yes it sucks for Engo, but that's the nature of the NHL. If he was 24-25 I think it would be a different story. But he's not... and while I don't think 30 is old (especially as I just turned 30), I do think one has to look at things objectively at how long he has left (4-6 years max), and where the greatest return will be. Either him at 4-6 or Strait/Bort who both have 10+ years ahead of them.

As for Dumoulin, I agree that unless he has a rock star camp he'll be off to WBS fairly quickly. And even if he does have that great of a camp there's only 3 spots open (assuming they carry 8 D), and that it'll be between him and Despres to battle for one of those spots (5 for Letang, Orpik, Martin, Niskanen and Engo, 2 for Strait and Bort, 1 for Despres or Dumoulin).

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08-07-2012, 02:55 PM
  #146
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I assume you didn't follow him while he was in Vancouver. He was frequently in AV's doghouse. He returned from the Olympic break out of shape. The Canucks finally just decided to cast him off.
I watched him a bunch in Van. I saw a bunch of mental mistakes that form my opinion that he was no more than a 3rd pairing guy there. I think this more than anything else is why he was in AV's doghouse.

I haven't seen enough recent games while he was in Colorado. If nothing's changed, then I'd pass on him. But if he's improved his game over the last 2-3 years (which is easily possible as he was 25/26 in Van), then perhaps he's worth a look if he's capable of playing 18/20 minutes a night. A lot of that time was on the PK, and he was playing 17 & 19 mins a night for them.

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08-07-2012, 03:02 PM
  #147
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Okay so what if Bortuzzo or Strait prove they are better in camp? Do you sit them because Engelland proved it? What I'm suggesting is you let all 3 battle it out and in the early going, let Engel sit a few games to give Strait and Bort a try (assuming they don't look like dog****). You know what you have in Engelland. He's a great, phyiscal bottom pairing dman. Bortuzzo and Strait could be bottom pairing guys, they could be number 7 d. or they, Bortuzzo specifically, could potentially be top 4 guys. Why not see what we have here?
I vote dress 7 D with Strait and Bort rotating to start the year. If they are outplaying Engelland (or whoever else for that matter) then start rotating the guys getting outplayed too. We'll be lucky if this lasts 2 weeks before we have a d-man out with an injury anyway.

As far as people saying Engelland has little upside due to his age: did you say that two years ago? He has improved dramatically each year he's been in the NHL. I'm not saying I expect him to replace Orpik in the top 4, but let's not rule out that he will actually get a little better again this year. I think he could see himself on the PK more often.

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08-07-2012, 03:06 PM
  #148
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I vote dress 7 D with Strait and Bort rotating to start the year. If they are outplaying Engelland (or whoever else for that matter) then start rotating the guys getting outplayed too. We'll be lucky if this lasts 2 weeks before we have a d-man out with an injury anyway.

As far as people saying Engelland has little upside due to his age: did you say that two years ago? He has improved dramatically each year he's been in the NHL. I'm not saying I expect him to replace Orpik in the top 4, but let's not rule out that he will actually get a little better again this year.
This is my point of view as well. In terms of Engel getting better, he absolutely can. That said, he will never be an every day top 4 dman IMO.

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08-07-2012, 03:07 PM
  #149
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Okay so what if Bortuzzo or Strait prove they are better in camp? Do you sit them because Engelland proved it? What I'm suggesting is you let all 3 battle it out and in the early going, let Engel sit a few games to give Strait and Bort a try (assuming they don't look like dog****). You know what you have in Engelland. He's a great, phyiscal bottom pairing dman. Bortuzzo and Strait could be bottom pairing guys, they could be number 7 d. or they, Bortuzzo specifically, could potentially be top 4 guys. Why not see what we have here?
You know as well as I do Bylsma will play it safe and Engelland will be on the opening night roster no matter how great Bortuzzo and Strait play in pre season. What he should do is dress 7 guys for the opener and take it from there

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08-07-2012, 03:12 PM
  #150
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As far as people saying Engelland has little upside due to his age: did you say that two years ago? He has improved dramatically each year he's been in the NHL. I'm not saying I expect him to replace Orpik in the top 4, but let's not rule out that he will actually get a little better again this year. I think he could see himself on the PK more often.
Fine, so he gets better. Lets even say he becomes a #4D. How long does he have before he slows down? Say it takes 2 seasons to get there, then he's 32. He'll have what... 2-5 seasons max? This isn't a knock against Engelland. But due to his age even if he improves, his age works against him, Strait/Bortuzzo have roughly the same upside as him (at the bare minimum) but are 6-7 years younger and thus have 2-3x his playing time left in their careers. That extended playing time should give them the edge.

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