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2012 Off Season Thread - Part dreiundzwanzig: Boring Summer edition

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08-07-2012, 03:14 PM
  #151
Riptide
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Originally Posted by Le Magnifique 66 View Post
You know as well as I do Bylsma will play it safe and Engelland will be on the opening night roster no matter how great Bortuzzo and Strait play in pre season. What he should do is dress 7 guys for the opener and take it from there
****** but true.

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08-07-2012, 03:14 PM
  #152
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I watched him a bunch in Van. I saw a bunch of mental mistakes that form my opinion that he was no more than a 3rd pairing guy there. I think this more than anything else is why he was in AV's doghouse.

I haven't seen enough recent games while he was in Colorado. If nothing's changed, then I'd pass on him. But if he's improved his game over the last 2-3 years (which is easily possible as he was 25/26 in Van), then perhaps he's worth a look if he's capable of playing 18/20 minutes a night. A lot of that time was on the PK, and he was playing 17 & 19 mins a night for them.
http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/2010/...brien_apology/

^^ Shane O'Brien apologizing for being overweight and out of shape following the Olympic break.

Again, my opinion on O'Brien is that his skillset is nothing special and to boot he seems to have a history of being a bit of a party animal who doesn't treat the game as seriously as he should (this is actually by his own admission). I would much sooner give Strait/Bort some trial by fire than try to land the illustrious O'Brien...

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08-07-2012, 03:21 PM
  #153
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Fine, so he gets better. Lets even say he becomes a #4D. How long does he have before he slows down? Say it takes 2 seasons to get there, then he's 32. He'll have what... 2-5 seasons max? This isn't a knock against Engelland. But due to his age even if he improves, his age works against him, Strait/Bortuzzo have roughly the same upside as him (at the bare minimum) but are 6-7 years younger and thus have 2-3x his playing time left in their careers. That extended playing time should give them the edge.
Deryk Engelland is playing RD on the bottom pairing this season end of story, Robert Bortuzzo and Brian Strait will be healthy scratches. They'll get playing time this year if injuries occur or if Deryk Engelland starts struggling.

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08-07-2012, 03:23 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
Fine, so he gets better. Lets even say he becomes a #4D. How long does he have before he slows down? Say it takes 2 seasons to get there, then he's 32. He'll have what... 2-5 seasons max? This isn't a knock against Engelland. But due to his age even if he improves, his age works against him, Strait/Bortuzzo have roughly the same upside as him (at the bare minimum) but are 6-7 years younger and thus have 2-3x his playing time left in their careers. That extended playing time should give them the edge.
If he is getting outplayed as the season goes on, he should be sat in favor of the guys outplaying him. If he is outplaying them, he should stay in.

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08-07-2012, 03:37 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by LetangInTheSO View Post
http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/2010/...brien_apology/

^^ Shane O'Brien apologizing for being overweight and out of shape following the Olympic break.

Again, my opinion on O'Brien is that his skillset is nothing special and to boot he seems to have a history of being a bit of a party animal who doesn't treat the game as seriously as he should (this is actually by his own admission). I would much sooner give Strait/Bort some trial by fire than try to land the illustrious O'Brien...
Come on man give him a break that was more then two years ago he has improved his game, i'm sure he's mature now. The guy is turning 30 years old in a year. The main reason why I purposed that trade was to get Jamie McGinn and to free up more cap space so we can offer Shane Doan an offer he can't refuse.Crosby could finally have good wingers to play with. Maybe Jan Hejda would be a better fit than O'Brien.
Imagine this top six:
Jamie McGinn / Sidney Crosby / Shane Doan
Chris Kunitz / Evgeni Malkin / James Neal

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08-07-2012, 03:37 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
If he is getting outplayed as the season goes on, he should be sat in favor of the guys outplaying him. If he is outplaying them, he should stay in.
What a revolutionary idea! But there's no way we can do this!

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08-07-2012, 03:39 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by MichiganWolverines View Post
Come on man give him a break that was more then two years ago he has improved his game, i'm sure he's mature now. The guy is turning 30 years old in a year. The main reason why I purposed that trade was to get Jamie McGinn and to free up more cap space so we can offer Shane Doan an offer he can't refuse.Crosby could finally have good wingers to play with. Maybe Jan Hejda would be a better fit than O'Brien.
Imagine this top six:
Jamie McGinn / Sidney Crosby / Shane Doan
Chris Kunitz / Evgeni Malkin / James Neal
I didn't see your trade proposal. My only point here is that we shouldn't be clamoring for the services of a guy like Shane O'Brien given our resources on D.

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08-07-2012, 03:42 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by MichiganWolverines View Post
Deryk Engelland is playing RD on the bottom pairing this season end of story, Robert Bortuzzo and Brian Strait will be healthy scratches. They'll get playing time this year if injuries occur or if Deryk Engelland starts struggling.
Who the hell are you to tell us what will and won't happen

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08-07-2012, 03:46 PM
  #159
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What a revolutionary idea! But there's no way we can do this!
I know, I'm ridiculous with my crazy new ideas. Basically, I think Engelland will keep his spot because he will be good enough to deserve it. But overall I hope we are past the point where guys can earn their spots based on things they've done in the past. Sure, give those guys a little bit more leeway maybe, but with the number of D-men we have coming up we should be playing our best players. If that means we have to sit or even move a vet to make space, that's what we should do.

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08-07-2012, 04:03 PM
  #160
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McGinn is a really nice player but Martin + TK is perhaps the Pens strongest trade offer - Shero isn't going to use that package to acquire McGinn/O'Brien when there are other wingers that are more proven out there and we are overflowing with internal bottom-pairing options.

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08-07-2012, 04:26 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by Lost in Crafton View Post
McGinn is a really nice player but Martin + TK is perhaps the Pens strongest trade offer - Shero isn't going to use that package to acquire McGinn/O'Brien when there are other wingers that are more proven out there and we are overflowing with internal bottom-pairing options.
Truth.

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08-07-2012, 06:07 PM
  #162
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If we lose Strait to waivers to keep Engelland, I will have a tantrum the likes of which has never been seen. Strait played well enough last season to play in every single game. He has the potential to be a Scuderi-replacement in my mind.

Speaking of bottom defensemen, should we start a countdown for Rev. Lovejoy's departure? How is he still seriously on the club with this backlog of defensemen?

We have 51 contracts at the moment, (if re-signing Grant), many of them ELC's or newly signed AHL'ers. The max is 50, and most teams like to go under that amount to have trade/waiver flexibility. Jayson Megna has just been signed, and is not listed on the capgeek reserves yet. You look at this list and tell me who screams to be shipped off?

http://capgeek.com/reserve_lists.php?team_id=26


Other than Lovejoy, who else will be gone before all is said and done? Killeen? Adams? Veilleux? Samuelsson? Sneep? Petersen? I know Shero likes depth, but this is a little overboard.


Last edited by Uemoda: 08-07-2012 at 06:18 PM.
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08-07-2012, 06:11 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by Ominous Grey View Post
If we lose Strait to waivers to keep Engelland, I will have a tantrum the likes of which has never been seen. Strait played well enough last season to play in every single game. He has the potential to be a Scuderi-replacement in my mind.
He won't be waived.

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Originally Posted by Ominous Grey View Post
We have 51 contracts at the moment, (if re-signing Grant), many of them ELC's or newly signed AHL'ers. The max is 50, and most teams like to go under that amount to have trade/waiver flexibility. Jayson Megna has just been signed, and is not listed on the capgeek reserves yet. You look at this list and tell me who screams to be shipped off?

http://capgeek.com/reserve_lists.php?team_id=26
Lovejoy is 100% gone, next in line would be Petersen if need be

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08-07-2012, 06:28 PM
  #164
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What do people have against Engelland?

The guy's a great bottom-pairing defenseman - good skater, solid d, a great fighter, and our only physical defenseman outside of Orpik and Letang. Christ, he was one of the few defensemen we had who didn't look like **** against the Flyers.

Given his unique skillset and salary, we shouldn't entertain moving him period.

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08-07-2012, 06:50 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
What do people have against Engelland?

The guy's a great bottom-pairing defenseman - good skater, solid d, a great fighter, and our only physical defenseman outside of Orpik and Letang. Christ, he was one of the few defensemen we had who didn't look like **** against the Flyers.

Given his unique skillset and salary, we shouldn't entertain moving him period.
Strait looked even better.

All I'm saying is that Orpik or Martin is going to be gone sooner rather than later anyway. And Engelland is what he is. Why lose Strait or Bortuzzo for one of those guys? It seems like a short-sighted move to me.

It's probably all semantics anyway, as I expect Despres to be sent down and shipped back up every other day, and Lovejoy to be deported. Point remains - they are a solid bottom-pairing. I'd much rather have Strait-Bortuzzo intact than hang on to a pairing of Engelland-(Whoever).

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08-07-2012, 06:53 PM
  #166
Til the End of Time
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we always overrate mediocre prospects.

engelland has at least proven hes a capable physical bottom pairing d-man in the nhl, possibly more.

i would be thrilled if one of bortuzzo or strait ending up being a legit nhl defensemen. theyve proven next to nothing at the nhl level. if one of them leaves, i wouldnt be too upset.

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08-07-2012, 06:56 PM
  #167
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Engelland is good. I still think Strait will be a better overall hockey player (not knocking Engelland). Bortuzzo probably has the upside to be better too. Neither brings the physicality or fighting skills that Engelland does which may make it tough for one of them to replace Engelland in the lineup.

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08-07-2012, 07:00 PM
  #168
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Originally Posted by Til the End of Time View Post
we always overrate mediocre prospects.

engelland has at least proven hes a capable physical bottom pairing d-man in the nhl, possibly more.

i would be thrilled if one of bortuzzo or strait ending up being a legit nhl defensemen. theyve proven next to nothing at the nhl level. if one of them leaves, i wouldnt be too upset.
Next to nothing?

Go watch Strait's body of work (albeit small) this season. The man was a rock for the bottom-pairing.

And the "proven" thing is drastically overrated. Are we going to pretend that Lovejoy is better than Bortuzzo because he's played more NHL games? IMO, that has more to do with poor coaching than as an indication of skill-level.

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08-07-2012, 07:05 PM
  #169
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Next to nothing?

Go watch Strait's body of work (albeit small) this season. The man was a rock for the bottom-pairing.

And the "proven" thing is drastically overrated. Are we going to pretend that Lovejoy is better than Bortuzzo because he's played more NHL games? IMO, that has more to do with poor coaching than as an indication of skill-level.
strait was pretty good for like 10 games this season. thats next to nothing. those were also 10 games were the defense overall was terrible. i dont consider that an indicator of much.

lovejoy has proven he sucks at the nhl level. engelland has proven he can contribute at the nhl level.

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08-07-2012, 07:05 PM
  #170
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
What do people have against Engelland?

The guy's a great bottom-pairing defenseman - good skater, solid d, a great fighter, and our only physical defenseman outside of Orpik and Letang. Christ, he was one of the few defensemen we had who didn't look like **** against the Flyers.

Given his unique skillset and salary, we shouldn't entertain moving him period.
Some people just don't understand how important Deryk Engelland is to this team. He brings toughness, grit and consistency.



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08-07-2012, 07:08 PM
  #171
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Originally Posted by MichiganWolverines View Post
Some people just don't understand how important Deryk Engelland is to this team, he brings toughness, grit and consistency.
I'm really looking forward to seeing if he gets an increased role on the PK with Michalek gone.

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08-07-2012, 07:11 PM
  #172
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I'm really looking forward to seeing if he gets an increased role on the PK with Michalek gone.
It should be interesting, he's not afraid to block shots just like Michalek.

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08-07-2012, 07:12 PM
  #173
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Strait looked even better.

All I'm saying is that Orpik or Martin is going to be gone sooner rather than later anyway. And Engelland is what he is. Why lose Strait or Bortuzzo for one of those guys? It seems like a short-sighted move to me.

It's probably all semantics anyway, as I expect Despres to be sent down and shipped back up every other day, and Lovejoy to be deported. Point remains - they are a solid bottom-pairing. I'd much rather have Strait-Bortuzzo intact than hang on to a pairing of Engelland-(Whoever).
I disagree. He was solid though, for 3 games, in limited action.

I like Strait and Bortuzzo. But they're fairly low-upside guys, they're unproven in the NHL, and they don't bring the same sort of unique skillset that Engelland has and we need.

Personally, I'd rather move Martin than risk losing any of them. But that isn't going to happen, so I'm fine with Engelland retaining the niche he carved out for himself and letting Bort and Strait fight it out for the final spot.

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08-07-2012, 07:15 PM
  #174
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Originally Posted by MichiganWolverines View Post
Some people just don't understand how important Deryk Engelland is to this team. He brings toughness, grit and consistency.


People do understand how important Engelland is. Saying that Strait and Bortuzzo are better at hockey is not saying Engelland isn't important.

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08-07-2012, 07:19 PM
  #175
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What do people have against Engelland?

The guy's a great bottom-pairing defenseman - good skater, solid d, a great fighter, and our only physical defenseman outside of Orpik and Letang. Christ, he was one of the few defensemen we had who didn't look like **** against the Flyers.

Given his unique skillset and salary, we shouldn't entertain moving him period.
I don't think anyone has anything against Engelland but he is just a bottom pairing D-man. Those guys are easy to replace and if you can replace them with a younger guy with more potential then you do it because in the long haul it makes your team better. There is absolutely nothing about Engelland that screams "we can't live without him". The only unique skill is his ability to fight and that's something we can live without. As far as his salary, Strait & Bortuzzo will be making about the same so that reason blows out the window. If he only had one more year on his contract he would probably be on the chopping block like Lovejoy.

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